Some discussion of 1.0.5

[taltamir]

1. its impractical to keep on hauling supplies over to the new colony... makes more sense to haul over the equipment needed to MAKE those supplies.
2. why couldn't it fit in one ship (if its big enough)? the ship can hold 50 MILLION people... it can hold the supplies to produce a self sustaining economy.
3. A colony "ship" could easily be a colony fleet...
4. If you say "i will send it now and send more later" you are taking a huge risk of failure. You sent millions of people and countless supplies, but you don't send enough to ensure survival on the premise that you will send more later if things all go well? no, it makes more sense to build it all up in orbit, and only send them when everything is ready.
5. DW does not work via this sort of abstraction, traders and passenger DO travel... so rather then costing you lots of money it SHOULD require instead a steady supply of "resources" to be delivered via the robust freighter system already in place. You could I guess create a "colony supplies" mechanic and have them be delivered, but it would be lots of work to add.
6. Are you running a big electric cable to the new colony from the neighboring planet or what? what exactly are those expenses? A colony needs to be able to produce power (they got a fusion reactor from the ship, they can build more), mine (they pack mining equipment), refine (they pack that), construct (they pack that), feed the colonists (grow their own food), water (well, they aren't colonizing dead planets), and shelter (they can build it there)...
The only plausible expense is the equipment and materials to do the initial construction... And those should all be carried initially if you want to convince people to even embark on the journey (and have them not all die the first year)

[Yarasala]

While there are a lot of reasons why a colony initially costs money I won't expand on that further (unless somebody wishes me to do so [;)]). The important point is to ensure the following, however that is modelled in the game:

- Make colony spamming impossible

- Provide a mechanism that colonizing nearby planets is much more sensible.

- Whatever model you choose MAKE THE VARIABLES MODDABLE!

[Astax]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

- Make colony spamming impossible

I wouldn't go that far. There are some races/governments that should still have the option. It makes the game more diverse.

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

- Provide a mechanism that colonizing nearby planets is much more sensible.

Yes I would love the game to work more like this.

[Yarasala]

ORIGINAL: Astax

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

- Make colony spamming impossible

I wouldn't go that far. There are some races/governments that should still have the option. It makes the game more diverse.

That's why I wish they make the mechanism moddable [;)]

Edit: better still, make it moddable on a per race base [8D]

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala
- Make colony spamming impossible

that isn't necessarily what everyone wants though...
And I believe we mentioned many better ways to do that if the developers DO decide that colony spamming should be verboten.

[Dadekster]

Colony spamming should be doable as well as some races being able to do it better than others I agree. But there needs to be some drawbacks to it. Right now I don't see any and I find it to easy to do based on how easy it is to find another races capable of settling previous unsuitable planets.

[taltamir]

you know, I just tried a game with normal speed colonization with the handicap of letting the AI design my ships (so my ships are equally as powerful/weak as the AIs)... One of the AIs got lucky and scored way of darkness AND a fleet of capital ships early on and gave me tons of grief for most of the entire game (and the others, it personally annihilated half the other AIs!)

I ended up actually utilizing the colonization tech. finding and conquering races that can colonize every planet type is a lot harder when you can't slaughter their entire fleet with one of your ships.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: ceyan

Why wouldn't a colony have a "maintenance" charge until they're self-sufficient?

I don't think it fits with the revenue model of the game. Colonies don't have a "maintenance" charge because the cost of living is paid for by citizens, not by government. However, what DOES happen is that the colony produces basically zero income for some time, while generating massive corruption, so already, it is a negative.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: ceyan

Why wouldn't a colony have a "maintenance" charge until they're self-sufficient?

I don't think it fits with the revenue model of the game. Colonies don't have a "maintenance" charge because the cost of living is paid for by citizens, not by government. However, what DOES happen is that the colony produces basically zero income for some time, while generating massive corruption, so already, it is a negative.

that is a good point... the colony produces no money but costs you due to corruption reducing money from other colonies...
also the AI will recruit troops there, build more ships (private and state), etc for the new colonies, which further costs you.

[Pipewrench]

to limit colony spamming why not increase the consumption of strategic resources at colony startup to reflect :
infastructure
housing
agriculture
with a heavy hand on fuel costs from existing territory to ship needed resources for the initial expansion phases.

If you reaching out too far the colony will only become a burden due too shipping costs and safe transit lanes. It will force the player to be very selective as fuel and strategic materials could wipe inventory and bankrupt the economy if poor areas are selected.

This can be carried over to even conquests as you will inherit the problems of supply that that race has had and winning the war might just bankrupt you in peace if you do not have the raw infastructure to keep all your balls in the air.....

Tech in mining and gas extraction will now become a priority with your military role becoming a backstop like it is in real life.

[Keston]

ORIGINAL: pipewrench

If you reaching out too far the colony will only become a burden due too shipping costs and safe transit lanes. It will force the player to be very selective as fuel and strategic materials could wipe inventory and bankrupt the economy if poor areas are selected.

Yes, and for this to be interesting and enjoyable the game AI must present the decisions for selection and necessary information for the player's attention, with recommendations/option (and not pop-up blocking all other action)!

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Keston

ORIGINAL: pipewrench

If you reaching out too far the colony will only become a burden due too shipping costs and safe transit lanes. It will force the player to be very selective as fuel and strategic materials could wipe inventory and bankrupt the economy if poor areas are selected.

Yes, and for this to be interesting and enjoyable the game AI must present the decisions for selection and necessary information for the player's attention, with recommendations/option (and not pop-up blocking all other action)!

Filter potential colonies by estimated shipping costs.

[Dadekster]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

you know, I just tried a game with normal speed colonization with the handicap of letting the AI design my ships (so my ships are equally as powerful/weak as the AIs)... One of the AIs got lucky and scored way of darkness AND a fleet of capital ships early on and gave me tons of grief for most of the entire game (and the others, it personally annihilated half the other AIs!)

I ended up actually utilizing the colonization tech. finding and conquering races that can colonize every planet type is a lot harder when you can't slaughter their entire fleet with one of your ships.

I haven't had this happen to me yet but since you have do you feel that some of this stuff makes for a bit of an unbalanced game? I know there were two variables in that they had a fleet of percursor ships and a advanced government so maybe the effect was bigger that usual but what are your thoughts on it?

I guess there are two ways to look at it in that one, it adds a bit of a random anything goes factor into the game and two, it just makes for too much unbalance/power based on random goodie huts. Thoughts?

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Dadekster

ORIGINAL: taltamir

you know, I just tried a game with normal speed colonization with the handicap of letting the AI design my ships (so my ships are equally as powerful/weak as the AIs)... One of the AIs got lucky and scored way of darkness AND a fleet of capital ships early on and gave me tons of grief for most of the entire game (and the others, it personally annihilated half the other AIs!)

I ended up actually utilizing the colonization tech. finding and conquering races that can colonize every planet type is a lot harder when you can't slaughter their entire fleet with one of your ships.

I haven't had this happen to me yet but since you have do you feel that some of this stuff makes for a bit of an unbalanced game? I know there were two variables in that they had a fleet of percursor ships and a advanced government so maybe the effect was bigger that usual but what are your thoughts on it?

I guess there are two ways to look at it in that one, it adds a bit of a random anything goes factor into the game and two, it just makes for too much unbalance/power based on random goodie huts. Thoughts?

Those random fleets might be very unbalancing... the thing is, there are dozens of AI empires and there is only one of you...
So the chances of YOU being the one to find those? very low... its usually one of the AIs that finds them, which then it uses them to conquer all the other AIs and give you grief.
That was a 100 star map though... on a larger map there would be enough of those that everyone could have a good chance of finding them... but also, it would be less likely someone will find them right off the bat (since they would be more planets to explore)

[Locarnus]

Ave,

reading all those suggestions about the colonization problem, I made a post in the wishlist thread (page 24).

The basic is, to seperate the full colonization of an at least partly suitable planet (eg desert for humans)
and the colonization of another solid planet (eg vulcan for humans).

While even a small colony for the former should be self-sustaining and working as it is now, in the latter case it should only be doable by some kind of biosphere.
This biosphere colonization means, that there is a tight pop cap (eg 30mio) possibly expanding by hab technology.
It also means that those biosphere colonies cost some kind of state upkeep (permanently), to maintain the structures as well as the colonists (by definition a not hospitable planet lacks some vital resources for this species, eg water, atmosphere, climate control, gravitation aso...).

This would also solve the issue of claiming systems without a hospitable planet within.
That a colony ship transporting eg 10 mio people and providing the resources for a colony/biosphere should cost more than some cruiser is also obvious.
Imho a colony module the current size should provide only 1mio people, taken from the constructing planet, for 10mio about 10 times the current costs should be paid, as was also proposed earlier.
Otherwise it was just too simple to just take over a mini reptilian colony with 20mio pop and spam an endless stream of colony ships to get all those ice moons or whatever. Therefore the biosphere colonies still have some purpose even after having a bunch of minors within the empire.

[taltamir]

10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

Also, an expensive colony with very low cap has its own problems... sure you can CLAIM a system without the right species... but its too costly so you still need to go out and acquire said species. So nothing really changed, everyone rushes to acquire species.
Besides... if you see an alien claiming planets in systems you could not you know exactly where to find a race you should conquer... start a "border skirmish" (war, conquer a few planets, reconcile) and then spread those far and wide.

The biggest complaint people had was that you had to spam colonies, and the more you spammed the better, and there was no limit to how much you spam... actually, I said was but it should be IS, that is the current state.
Rather then start out with very convoluted and complex solutions that might cause a lot of damaging unforseen consequences, it would be safer to start with smaller changes...

I say, start by making colony ships pickup colonists rather then create colonists... then let people play some games with that to see how things work out now. (this will also give some use to passenger ships, right now they are not very useful aside from brining passengers to resorts).
After people have a chance to get a better feel to what the effects of this are, we could go forward and make suggestions of further tweaks as needed.

[Locarnus]

sorry, maybe wrong expression

wanted to propose that 1 colony module, holding 1mio people costs about what it costs now
if you want to send 10mio people, build a ship with 10 modules, for 10 times the current costs

imho the problem of the rush does not only stem from the thin air issue.
when fixing the thin air issue without increasing the costs this would mean to further increase the effect of an independent colony, because such colony would provide much more people to spam colony ships from.
without financial restriction an empire without independents is even more hampered in relative terms than it is now since it nether has the race, nor the comparable manpower.
=> unnecessary creation of new balance problems, again in favor of the player

about the cost side, the thing is, that the state has to spend money to increase the reach of the private sector, a standard in most colonization efforts
and with the private sector utilizing the resources in the system, it feed back to the state after a while, possibly making the biosphere colony a worthy investment

[taltamir]

independant colonies are not problem though. The AI gets those as well, and often... AI empires are typically hetrogenous.

Currently independent colonies don't benefit you... UNLESS it is of a race that can colonize special planets and you have none of them yet. once you have a single planet with race X giving you ability to colonize planets of that type, you don't need the independent colonies anymore.

Financial restriction always exists, and this is no way favoring the player...

about the cost side, the thing is, that the state has to spend money to increase the reach of the private sector, a standard in most colonization efforts
and with the private sector utilizing the resources in the system, it feed back to the state after a while, possibly making the biosphere colony a worthy investment

Certainly, but:
1. unintended consequences.
2. how does it improve the game.
3. you are still better off getting race X to colonize said planet without a bioshpere.

[Locarnus]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

independant colonies are not problem though. The AI gets those as well, and often... AI empires are typically hetrogenous.

Currently independent colonies don't benefit you... UNLESS it is of a race that can colonize special planets and you have none of them yet. once you have a single planet with race X giving you ability to colonize planets of that type, you don't need the independent colonies anymore.

Financial restriction always exists, and this is no way favoring the player...

about the cost side, the thing is, that the state has to spend money to increase the reach of the private sector, a standard in most colonization efforts
and with the private sector utilizing the resources in the system, it feed back to the state after a while, possibly making the biosphere colony a worthy investment

Certainly, but:
1. unintended consequences.
2. how does it improve the game.
3. you are still better off getting race X to colonize said planet without a bioshpere.

well, i think the thin air problem is the main issue, due to the effects you have described
but only solving this main issue is imho not enough to end the colony rush.
If the costs do not rise the player is imho favored because the real benefits of a colony ship are extremely higher than the costs, not only in the long term but, and thats the problem, even in the short term, even when the thin air problem is resolved.
Especially in comparison with the building costs of a destroyer or similar.
Because the game does not use an EHE players are more likely to gain benfits from it and it is considerably harder to implement house rules like with the tech trading.

Why not make a check box for a colony module cost multiplier.
Very simple to implement, because it would only change a number eg 10fold. And anyone can have it as s/he wants.


granted the "biosphere colony" takes more valuable time/effort to implement

about your points
ad 1: if not specific, that can be the case for any correction/change, even for the thin air issue
ad 2: freedom of choice
what if i dont play with the "teeming" setting? then i m forced to conquer some AIs or be overrun
I can mark my territory without the need to conquer some independents.
Maybe you like to conquer, maybe others want to live more or less peacefully. Games like DW should leave that up to the player.
ad 3: Better off, yes, if you only consider efficiency.
But many on this forum do not play to efficiently conquer most of the universe. (Which is not too hard to do given the ai)
In fact, many may set house rules not to conquer as fast as possible, as efficient as possible.

[Barleyman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir
10x the cost for a colony ship with 10x the pop when you require that it REMOVE said pop from the planet that built it makes NO SENSE!
If colony ships stop producing colonists out of thin air, then there is no reason to EVER pay more for a colony ship... because passenger ships could and would easily make up any deficit by moving people around.
It also makes the loss of a colony ship devastating, its very expensive AND carries many precious citizens...

You're talking like colonizing another planet shouldn't be expensive undertaking with failure being devastating? That's how it is in most 4X games and it seems to work pretty good too.

Let's say the aim is to slow down colony spam - Making the ships expensive and fresh colonies resource/money sinks would force you to consider your options instead of spreading through the map like a proverbial locusts. Cf sword of the stars how this can work.