my custom ships wipe the AI's plate clean - everytime

[alexalexuk]

im still annoyed by the lack of progress made by the devs to clean up the AI's races loadout techniques, and NOT adapting to human players ships.

makes for a boring game that im beginning to play less and less of.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

ORIGINAL: taltamir

I played MoO3, in fact that was the game I waited for the most eagerly in my whole life - only to experience the biggest disappointment in my whole gaming life. MoO3 just didn't work, and I was so upset that I didn't bother to try any fan mods either ...

Anyway, I think we have both made clear our opinion.

Have you stopped to think why MOO3 was such a disappointment? Certain mechanics simply make for terrible game-play.

Since is such a long time ago I can't exactly remember what exact issues annoyed me. But I doubt it had to do especially with ship component selection, at least if it was implemented properly. But then, not very many things were implemented properly in MoO3 ... [8|]

MOO3 has a bazillion tech levels, with tiny incremental upgrades. You need to redesign (using "auto design) your ships EVERY TURN. Your ships cannot be retrofitted. The redesign is so tedious that you auto design every ship, there are dozens of roles (long range, short range, indirect fire, carriers, point defense, etc etc), there are dozens of sizes, your planets can't just build the latest size, each has their own limit, so you need to have designs of each size... the result was about 20 to 50 designs that each turn you have to obsolete all of them one by one, then "auto design" (manually select create new design, select size, select role, then click auto design, then click confirm)... each round... If you didn't the AI would kick your ass due to having up to date ships.
The game explicitly states that old designs would be automatically obsoleted and new designs made in their place... however that is NOT the case, they never implemented that... you have to do that manually.

Also they had retarded forced "balancing" between large and small empires.

Individual planet construction was best left on auto because it was unmanageable by a human being.

And so on and so forth... mods could NOT (EDIT: I accidently left off the NOT part) fix a lot but the biggest problem remains the ship redesign issue. which stems from too many components with no auto-design/auto-upgrade capability (both of which are found in distant worlds btw; in 1.05 the lasers sucking problem will be addressed which would improve things further).

Anyways... the moo3 design thing gave you TONS of choices... so many that a human being could not handle it and it should have been 100% automated (but it WASN'T)

[Yarasala]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Have you stopped to think why MOO3 was such a disappointment? Certain mechanics simply make for terrible game-play.

Since is such a long time ago I can't exactly remember what exact issues annoyed me. But I doubt it had to do especially with ship component selection, at least if it was implemented properly. But then, not very many things were implemented properly in MoO3 ... [8|]

MOO3 has a bazillion tech levels, with tiny incremental upgrades. You need to redesign (using "auto design) your ships EVERY TURN. Your ships cannot be retrofitted. The redesign is so tedious that you auto design every ship, there are dozens of roles (long range, short range, indirect fire, carriers, point defense, etc etc), there are dozens of sizes, your planets can't just build the latest size, each has their own limit, so you need to have designs of each size... the result was about 20 to 50 designs that each turn you have to obsolete all of them one by one, then "auto design" (manually select create new design, select size, select role, then click auto design, then click confirm)... each round... If you didn't the AI would kick your ass due to having up to date ships.
The game explicitly states that old designs would be automatically obsoleted and new designs made in their place... however that is NOT the case, they never implemented that... you have to do that manually.

Also they had retarded forced "balancing" between large and small empires.

Individual planet construction was best left on auto because it was unmanageable by a human being.

And so on and so forth... mods could fix a lot but the biggest problem remains the ship redesign issue. which stems from too many components with no auto-design/auto-upgrade capability (both of which are found in distant worlds btw; in 1.05 the lasers sucking problem will be addressed which would improve things further).

Anyways... the moo3 design thing gave you TONS of choices... so many that a human being could not handle it and it should have been 100% automated (but it WASN'T)

Ok, thanks for remembering me (I had completely forgotten - perhaps subconciously voluntarily [;)]) - about that). I assure you that I don't want to have such a convoluted system. But if the choices are so that a human being can still handle them and the auto upgrade function works sensibly then I would enjoy that.

[VarekRaith]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Have you stopped to think why MOO3 was such a disappointment? Certain mechanics simply make for terrible game-play.

Since is such a long time ago I can't exactly remember what exact issues annoyed me. But I doubt it had to do especially with ship component selection, at least if it was implemented properly. But then, not very many things were implemented properly in MoO3 ... [8|]

MOO3 has a bazillion tech levels, with tiny incremental upgrades. You need to redesign (using "auto design) your ships EVERY TURN. Your ships cannot be retrofitted. The redesign is so tedious that you auto design every ship, there are dozens of roles (long range, short range, indirect fire, carriers, point defense, etc etc), there are dozens of sizes, your planets can't just build the latest size, each has their own limit, so you need to have designs of each size... the result was about 20 to 50 designs that each turn you have to obsolete all of them one by one, then "auto design" (manually select create new design, select size, select role, then click auto design, then click confirm)... each round... If you didn't the AI would kick your ass due to having up to date ships.
The game explicitly states that old designs would be automatically obsoleted and new designs made in their place... however that is NOT the case, they never implemented that... you have to do that manually.

Also they had retarded forced "balancing" between large and small empires.

Individual planet construction was best left on auto because it was unmanageable by a human being.

And so on and so forth... mods could fix a lot but the biggest problem remains the ship redesign issue. which stems from too many components with no auto-design/auto-upgrade capability (both of which are found in distant worlds btw; in 1.05 the lasers sucking problem will be addressed which would improve things further).

Anyways... the moo3 design thing gave you TONS of choices... so many that a human being could not handle it and it should have been 100% automated (but it WASN'T)

True, though I could at least deal with the ship design issues. What I couldn't deal with? That fool viceroy in full control of DEA upgrades. Annoyed me to no end that I couldn't control what was added to a DEA and when. [:o]

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Yarasala


Since is such a long time ago I can't exactly remember what exact issues annoyed me. But I doubt it had to do especially with ship component selection, at least if it was implemented properly. But then, not very many things were implemented properly in MoO3 ... [8|]

MOO3 has a bazillion tech levels, with tiny incremental upgrades. You need to redesign (using "auto design) your ships EVERY TURN. Your ships cannot be retrofitted. The redesign is so tedious that you auto design every ship, there are dozens of roles (long range, short range, indirect fire, carriers, point defense, etc etc), there are dozens of sizes, your planets can't just build the latest size, each has their own limit, so you need to have designs of each size... the result was about 20 to 50 designs that each turn you have to obsolete all of them one by one, then "auto design" (manually select create new design, select size, select role, then click auto design, then click confirm)... each round... If you didn't the AI would kick your ass due to having up to date ships.
The game explicitly states that old designs would be automatically obsoleted and new designs made in their place... however that is NOT the case, they never implemented that... you have to do that manually.

Also they had retarded forced "balancing" between large and small empires.

Individual planet construction was best left on auto because it was unmanageable by a human being.

And so on and so forth... mods could fix a lot but the biggest problem remains the ship redesign issue. which stems from too many components with no auto-design/auto-upgrade capability (both of which are found in distant worlds btw; in 1.05 the lasers sucking problem will be addressed which would improve things further).

Anyways... the moo3 design thing gave you TONS of choices... so many that a human being could not handle it and it should have been 100% automated (but it WASN'T)

True, though I could at least deal with the ship design issues. What I couldn't deal with? That fool viceroy in full control of DEA upgrades. Annoyed me to no end that I couldn't control what was added to a DEA and when. [:o]

Right... or the fact that once your tech upgraded a bit you were making a bazillion food and no production, because it didn't cut down on food production as technology improved. (food production should be done as a percentage penalty to industry... a percentage of your population and/or industry is dedicated to food production... with variation for planet type... so "dead" planets would require lots more industry because you need self contained hydroponics systems, and so on)
The entire DEA was a misapplied notion... it increased complexity without increasing realism...

But yea, there were LOTS of issues with the game, the ship design just the one I found most glaring.

[Pipewrench]

to throw out a thought on how to give the AI the best chance at the best design just have a pool of designs submitted for every race covering all the techs and sizes by players. have a 1 person 1 vote to ween out bad designs and set certain rock/paper what ifs for the AI to implement.

It would be nice in my opinion to have hull designs that are obsolete to some major breakthru techs. engines, reactors etc. This could also bring to life a tech that worked on minuturization that could give that old hull a new use if the player wanted to spend the coin but only to that specifc tech and design.

The AI might emplode on adding that many variables but if you brought in human design to counter other human designs things should even out and it would just be the little tweaks that carry the day...but would you post your winning formula knowing you would face its wrath in future. .....????

edit: also keep the pool without author credit and no comments on the vote and that will help submissions to the pool.email the winner on the next voluntary update but do not divulge the race or ship class name and let people download the new pool on the members page. this would also help with pirates as they need that new file from the developer to play against the new designs.

I think this would create real competition in players to outthink designs encountered and kill quickly "I always win with this design" and lastly ...all you have to do it create 2 or 3 new techs in the tree and there is your expansion with a quick beta to build up a new starting database for the AI to pull from that will always improve.

[the1sean]

Hmm, I think that many players want ship design to be some overly complicated spreadsheet task. I dont like teching that doesnt give you a definitely better component. It is also hard for the AI to manage designing with a crazy overly detailed tech-tree. Just my two cents.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Hmm, I think that many players want ship design to be some overly complicated spreadsheet task. I dont like teching that doesnt give you a definitely better component. It is also hard for the AI to manage designing with a crazy overly detailed tech-tree. Just my two cents.

Agreed... Lets not have the game become an excel spreadsheet. Simple, linear tech improvements... not the most realistic, but the most fun.

[Pipewrench]

true but is not any war really based on exel?

[;)]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: the1sean

Hmm, I think that many players want ship design to be some overly complicated spreadsheet task. I dont like teching that doesnt give you a definitely better component. It is also hard for the AI to manage designing with a crazy overly detailed tech-tree. Just my two cents.

Agreed... Lets not have the game become an excel spreadsheet. Simple, linear tech improvements... not the most realistic, but the most fun.

Personally I'd like to see a system that upgrades the components incrementally to a point where you get a new part.

IE:

Standard Laser Mark 0 starts at 100, is upgradable to 200 (at Mark 99) by increasing 1 point at a time, then at what would be the 201 improvement you get the Enhanced Laser Mark 0.

This way you use the parts longer, and its not a race to see how fast you can crash the programs all the time.

It would still be simple. The new componant is exactly the same as the Mark 99 version of the previous part, but now you can upgrade it another 99 times....etc etc.

Not perfect, but hopefully not overly complicated and I do like that kind of system.

[taltamir]

Standard Laser Mark 0 starts at 100, is upgradable to 200 (at Mark 99) by increasing 1 point at a time, then at what would be the 201 improvement you get the Enhanced Laser Mark 0.

This way you use the parts longer, and its not a race to see how fast you can crash the programs all the time.

It would still be simple. The new componant is exactly the same as the Mark 99 version of the previous part, but now you can upgrade it another 99 times....etc etc.

That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!!

Actually this wouldn't have been too bad if the upgrade was automatic (that is, laser 76 replaces all laser 77 automatically and immediately) and the improvements are only in things like damage or range (size and energy requirement could alter the amount you need and "break" the design requiring a redesign)
All you are saying though is that you want less technologies and that tech lasts longer... play with very slow research then.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Standard Laser Mark 0 starts at 100, is upgradable to 200 (at Mark 99) by increasing 1 point at a time, then at what would be the 201 improvement you get the Enhanced Laser Mark 0.

This way you use the parts longer, and its not a race to see how fast you can crash the programs all the time.

It would still be simple. The new componant is exactly the same as the Mark 99 version of the previous part, but now you can upgrade it another 99 times....etc etc.

That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!!

Actually this wouldn't have been too bad if the upgrade was automatic (that is, laser 76 replaces all laser 77 automatically and immediately) and the improvements are only in things like damage or range (size and energy requirement could alter the amount you need and "break" the design requiring a redesign)
All you are saying though is that you want less technologies and that tech lasts longer... play with very slow research then.

Actually what I really want is a slow research system, but one that also takes care of the details for me. I like the idea of being able to set my budget for research by saying 'I'm going to specialize in lasers by giving 25% of the budget to that tech while leaving the other techs to split the remaining 75%.' This would be part of my perfect game, and it is merely a case of 'thinking out loud' here.

Automatic upgrade is an absolute must with a system such as this. Like you there is no way I'd like having to upgrade and retrofit every single mark improvement.

If a research system like this was to go into effect, you'd need an auto-upgrade/auto-retrofit system such as I described in some other thread. That is you set a % of budget to be spent upgrading, and the AI does what it can to get the best 'bang for buck' by constantly upgrading/retrofitting ships for you without you having to do anything.

So yes, I'd love it, but I also am a realist and know that this probably is not for DW. [;)]

[taltamir]

but how is such a system improving the game compared to the current system?
Just slow research down even more, or mod out the highest end things so there are only 3 tech levels. or both.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

but how is such a system improving the game compared to the current system?
Just slow research down even more, or mod out the highest end things so there are only 3 tech levels. or both.

Actually, what I like is an open-ended research system.

I'll explain.

Basically, I would do away with the components 'Laser, Blaster, Death Ray' and simply have techs such as 'Beam Weapons, Ballistic Weapons, Torpedo Weapons, etc'. These would be open ended techs, but there would be some type of curve that would make each point of improvement exponentially harder to achieve than the previous one. So long as you keep research funded, you keep making improvements over time.

There are no redesigns or retrofits (unless you want to change a design to carry more or less weapons or add types). But there would be an additional cost for maintainence as ships are automatically 'upgraded' as they visit fuel depots (that is as the tech improves, the ships automatically benefit from the breakthrough). You do not have to mess with it or redesign your ships every time you turn around.

You could even have multiple research areas on the same system.

Shields for example could research strength, power consumption and recharge. Lasers would research power consumption and damage, etc. These would not have to be 1 breakthrough = 1 point, but could even be a minor percentage. Say that your shield has a typical power consumtion of 200, at each breakthrough level you gain 0.5% improvement in this case you get 200 * 0.005 = 1 point of improvement. The next breakthrough would be 199 * 0.005 = .99 (you'd need to track a couple of decimal points).

As you can see with power consumption formula like this for more RP expenditure you actually get a diminishing return...it will always cost power, and the more you improve it, the less the next improvement will gain. Some aspects (the ones that reduce starting stats) would eventually hit a point where an improvement would show no actual improvement gain. With carefull balance of RP requirements you would eventually hit a point where the systems stabilize, but always allow you to continue improvement, though with an RP cost so high the game would be over before you hit the next advancement point. Basically it is a soft-cap system.

Anyway, this is a dream, little more. But I thought I'd try to explain the system I favor...again I am not adding this to the wishlist thread...this system would likely be satisfying to only myself and a small percentage of others.

[taltamir]

this is interesting system... its very much not DW though.

I don't think it should increase costs of ships as you improve it, that would cause issues.
Basically, if your guys invented an improvement that reduces power consumption by ~1% (aka, improve efficiency), you could just say "ok, so since the reactor delivers X watts to it we just pump more energy through it for more damage"
And I think certain areas should not improve at all (namely, do not reduce power consumption or size)... a 5MW laser does more damage to the enemy the more efficient it gets. You could say "its the same damage but less power"... and that would be true, but you could at the same time run more power through it to get more damage. It forces redesign to alter power, size, or cost.
But range, damage, to hit, etc can be improved and have an interesting and valid system. Just a very different system from other games on the market, this type of experiment is not something DW Should go towards directly... maybe something for moders to experiment with.

[Yarasala]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: taltamir

but how is such a system improving the game compared to the current system?
Just slow research down even more, or mod out the highest end things so there are only 3 tech levels. or both.

Actually, what I like is an open-ended research system.

I'll explain.

Basically, I would do away with the components 'Laser, Blaster, Death Ray' and simply have techs such as 'Beam Weapons, Ballistic Weapons, Torpedo Weapons, etc'. These would be open ended techs, but there would be some type of curve that would make each point of improvement exponentially harder to achieve than the previous one. So long as you keep research funded, you keep making improvements over time.

There are no redesigns or retrofits (unless you want to change a design to carry more or less weapons or add types). But there would be an additional cost for maintainence as ships are automatically 'upgraded' as they visit fuel depots (that is as the tech improves, the ships automatically benefit from the breakthrough). You do not have to mess with it or redesign your ships every time you turn around.

You could even have multiple research areas on the same system.

Shields for example could research strength, power consumption and recharge. Lasers would research power consumption and damage, etc. These would not have to be 1 breakthrough = 1 point, but could even be a minor percentage. Say that your shield has a typical power consumtion of 200, at each breakthrough level you gain 0.5% improvement in this case you get 200 * 0.005 = 1 point of improvement. The next breakthrough would be 199 * 0.005 = .99 (you'd need to track a couple of decimal points).

As you can see with power consumption formula like this for more RP expenditure you actually get a diminishing return...it will always cost power, and the more you improve it, the less the next improvement will gain. Some aspects (the ones that reduce starting stats) would eventually hit a point where an improvement would show no actual improvement gain. With carefull balance of RP requirements you would eventually hit a point where the systems stabilize, but always allow you to continue improvement, though with an RP cost so high the game would be over before you hit the next advancement point. Basically it is a soft-cap system.

Anyway, this is a dream, little more. But I thought I'd try to explain the system I favor...again I am not adding this to the wishlist thread...this system would likely be satisfying to only myself and a small percentage of others.

I'm one of the group who likes the current system more, although that could do with some improvements.
Your systems sounds very like the SEV system to me. I found that tedious, I like it more when research is about significant breakthroughs and discoveries, and that's simply not the case when every research "success" brings only one point more damage or something like that. The MoO2 system with a lot of very different components was neraly ideal for me in this respect (apart from the fact that some components that were quite useless).
On the other hand, when at the end of the research tree, I could live with a system that works like you describe but only begins then.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Yarasala
I'm one of the group who likes the current system more, although that could do with some improvements.
Your systems sounds very like the SEV system to me. I found that tedious, I like it more when research is about significant breakthroughs and discoveries, and that's simply not the case when every research "success" brings only one point more damage or something like that. The MoO2 system with a lot of very different components was neraly ideal for me in this respect (apart from the fact that some components that were quite useless).
On the other hand, when at the end of the research tree, I could live with a system that works like you describe but only begins then.

I agree with pretty much all you said

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: Yarasala
I'm one of the group who likes the current system more, although that could do with some improvements.
Your systems sounds very like the SEV system to me. I found that tedious, I like it more when research is about significant breakthroughs and discoveries, and that's simply not the case when every research "success" brings only one point more damage or something like that. The MoO2 system with a lot of very different components was neraly ideal for me in this respect (apart from the fact that some components that were quite useless).
On the other hand, when at the end of the research tree, I could live with a system that works like you describe but only begins then.

I agree with pretty much all you said

Like I said, I'm not advocating moving DW to this system, hence why I will never put this in the wishlist thread. Just explaining what my idea of the best research system would be. If I was making my own game, that is the system I would use, but DW is not my game, and my tastes for the system could be quite unique.

[taltamir]

fair enough

[JosEPhII]

[{quote]taltamir wrote:That sounds a lot like the epic fail MOO3 had. Where you had to redesign all your ships every single turn!!! [/quote]

No you didn't! [:-]

Only when major tech advance was achieved. And generally when you had several advances to combine for an new line. And you used the older designs for Piracy control, Antaran X Expeditions, and added system defenses. You could scrap them but they definitely had better uses. Go to the Atari MoO3 forum and read the Gen. Disc. sub forum thread Evon1.2.5.

JosEPh   [;)]