Southwest Front Runs Away?

[Erik Rutins]

The difference here comes from the fact that we have seen and played many, many turns and test games against the AI so what to you may be your whole experience and thus a defining point, to us is an outlier or exception that we are trying to figure out and put in context. I'd really like to see you play into the Summer of 1942 and see what your thoughts on the AI are at that point.

Regards,

- Erik

[karonagames]

OOps wrong thread.

[Zoetermeer]

One thing I forgot to mention - with AGC I adopted the Bock strategy, foregoing the opportunity to use the panzers to close a ring around Minsk. Instead I sent 3rd Panzer Group straight to Vitebsk, and Guderian straight for Mogilev and Zhlobin.

I had been thinking also that my early capture of Vitebsk had something to do with it, so maybe my uneducated guess was right.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The difference here comes from the fact that we have seen and played many, many turns and test games against the AI so what to you may be your whole experience and thus a defining point, to us is an outlier or exception that we are trying to figure out and put in context. I'd really like to see you play into the Summer of 1942 and see what your thoughts on the AI are at that point.

Regards,

- Erik

I'm afraid that not many of us punters are likely to keep playing into Summer '42 if Summer '41 plays out like science fiction. The difference between us and you guys is that we didn't sign up to test the game, we bought it in order to play it. It needs to feel realistic (or at least reasonably sane) all the way through, not from '42 onwards.

Note that I sang the praises of the AI in the Kiev scenario - it fought very well. There is clearly a design or coding issue with the Grand Campaign AI. Why can't we just admit that and focus on fixing it?

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Zoetermeer

One thing I forgot to mention - with AGC I adopted the Bock strategy, foregoing the opportunity to use the panzers to close a ring around Minsk. Instead I sent 3rd Panzer Group straight to Vitebsk, and Guderian straight for Mogilev and Zhlobin.

I had been thinking also that my early capture of Vitebsk had something to do with it, so maybe my uneducated guess was right.

You scared the AI. When I reported the same south front issue, one of the testers asked me "Did you take a lot of prisoners?" I think they know that the AI will overreact in certain situations.

[Redmarkus5]

“Insanity is the repetition of something over and over again believing that the outcome will eventually change.” Albert Einstein Maybe I'm crazy... :):):):)

[Joel Billings]

I agree that this game doesn't look right. The AI needs to defend Kiev and the river. Falling back quickly is ok, but having nothing there doesn't seem right. I'll check with Gary on this. In the last month of development Gary did make changes to better defend Leningrad and the Smolensk area, at the cost of the Ukraine area. However, it's not supposed to be this devoid of units. Now testers may not have noticed this as much as allmost all of them were playing at Challenging level, and IIRC when the AI gets 110% help, it gets to create units even without the needed admin points, so it builds up a set number of units that it wants to have. My guess is at Challenging it's got enough units to man all the areas, but at Normal, there may be times where it runs out of units, and the priority defenses around Leningrad and Smolensk are leaving the south stripped. It will be interesting how the game goes. It may work out ok for the AI even though it's not very historical. I'll have a talk with Gary about it and see if he can make some adjustments so that on Normal the AI tries to make sure it maintains a minimum in the south.

Aoetermeer, do you have save games at the beginning of the Soviet turns 4, 5 and 6 you could send me at 2by3@2by3games.com. That would help a lot.

[Redmarkus5]

Hi Joel. At last, an answer that makes sense and promises some attention!

My save game showing a similar issue (sent it in a couple of days ago) showed a huge number of Soviet AI units in depth in front of Smolensk. Later, some of these moved back South to re-establish the missing line, but it was weird to witness.

I don't think its a matter of the AI not having enough units.

Also, even when playing with AI morale set at 110% I noted that the AI abandons key cities like Minsk and Riga without a fight. I posted a short AAR on this today.

[karonagames]

Joel I have the saves - they are on route. Zoetemeer told me he doesn't have the earlier saves.

[Joel Billings]

I spoke with Gary and he had seen this thread and would really like to get some save games to check out. He and I are both surprised that there isn't at least a single line of Soviet units down in the south. That should happen before any layered defenses get built near Smolensk. So please send saves at the start of the Soviet turn if there is no line being formed (turn off FOW to check it out, the Soviet autosaves are the best saves to send). Send to 2by3@2by3games.com.

As for not defending Minsk and Riga, and for its falling back in the south, well that's to be expected. We don't make the Soviets defend these locations. I did notice the AI making some stupid moves out of urban areas when they were surrounded and had no hope of getting back to their lines, so in these cases they should just stay in the urban hex. This is something we'll eventually try to improve.

[ComradeP]

Now testers may not have noticed this as much as allmost all of them were playing at Challenging level, and IIRC when the AI gets 110% help, it gets to create units even without the needed admin points, so it builds up a set number of units that it wants to have. My guess is at Challenging it's got enough units to man all the areas

I've reported the same issue, on Challenging.

[blastpop]

To put a good face on it, the AI did something different and maybe the Soviets have learned and don't want to get pocketed... [;)]

If I were Gary, I would be scratching my head on this too.

[Redmarkus5]

Thank you, thank you, thank you

[Zoetermeer]

FWIW, here's the AGS situation on the following turn. The AI seems to have responded as BigAnorak mentioned earlier.

[Dr. Foo]

I may have got the same thing. Turn 3 the front was full of Soviets. I had a large pocket forming an then poof on turn 4 their gone.



Grrrr, how do you get attachments to show? I have tired using the [img] tab and just a link shows up, I have tried attaching and still nothing.

I can do this on other forums I know how to use HTML tags but I can't get it to work here for some reason there must be something I am missing here.

[ComradeP]

Dr. Foo: if an image doesn't appear when you link it through the image tag, that's odd. If posting from your HD, make sure you check the "embed picture in post" box next to "click here to upload!".

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Dr. Foo: if an image doesn't appear when you link it through the image tag, that's odd. If posting from your HD, make sure you check the "embed picture in post" box next to "click here to upload!".

Duh OK I knew it was something simple I overlooked.

Looks like smooth sailing to Kiev.

[Joel Billings]

Is this with FOW off? If not, please turn it off and see if there is a solid line. If not, please send me the save from the start of the prior Soviet turn, or the end of your last German turn.

For those of you that want to help with this problem, please use the Autosave Preference item. It's important to have saves for each turn so that when issues come up you can go back and get us the right save. This would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Is this with FOW off? If not, please turn it off and see if there is a solid line. If not, please send me the save from the start of the prior Soviet turn, or the end of your last German turn.

For those of you that want to help with this problem, please use the Autosave Preference item. It's important to have saves for each turn so that when issues come up you can go back and get us the right save. This would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Here is FOW turned off with FOW off I see them all in front of AGC how do I get you a saved file? Can we send files through PM?

[Joel Billings]

Great, looks like a good game to look at. Email the save to 2by3@2by3games.com