A question about reenforcements in a PBEM Game

[Frank W.]

Originally posted by Drex
The Brits are tough fighters but their equipment is lacking. Still the 17 pdr will kill anything the Germans have. Brits have a lot of different equipment types like the Krauts so they are fun to play anyway.

mhhh...but there is no good tank in 44. the sherman firefly has only a good gun but no good armor. i like more the sherman easy8 if playing the US. okay 40mm AA gun is a weapon i always use, so with the brits,too. i made deployment and force selection mistakes in this game, hope my next with the brits will be better.

[Frank W.]

i wonder,too why there are no 25pd or 75 or 105mm onboard howitzer in the british OOB in 44 ??

[Colonel von Blitz]

Ok, here are some "rules of honor" that I've created and honed while playing A LOT of PBEM games. These were created to counter some SP:WaW 'flaws' :

1) Reinforcements are allowed if both players agree. If not agreed, then rule of thumb is: reinforcements are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and allowed in Advance/Delay and in Assault/Defend -battles.

2) Paradrops and infiltrations are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and in Advance/Delay -battles. Paratroopers and Special Forces can still be used as regular infantry in those battles. Both are allowed in Assault/Defend battles.

3) In Meeting Engagements only engineers are allowed to place mines. In Advance/Delay battles in addition to engineer placed mines, player is allowed to buy some mines: small map = 15, medium map = 30, large map = 45 etc. In Assault/Defend battles the number of mines is unlimited.

4) Rocket launchers must reload for a minimum of 7 turns before firing another salvo (this is used with my modified 7.1 OOBs, where the ROF of Rocket Launchers was increased to 99).

5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry to counter armor is forbidden, unless the weapon was actually used in such a manner (for example german 88mm).

6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery, it is forbidden to use only smoke puffs as guidance. When you have or have had visual contact (both ground and air units qualify) to enemy On-Board artillery, you may target them.

7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of On-Board artillery batteries to direct their own fire. On-Board artillery fire is allowed to be called only by using FOs, HQ OR Platoon/Company leaders.

9) Players are allowed to use 10% (15% in Assault/Defend battles) of their points for artillery. This percentage is calculated from the amount of points available in the beginning of the inital purchase, thus the possible reinforcement points have no effect in the maximum points that are allowed to be spent for artillery.

a) In meeting engagements the Off-Board artillery is limited to a maximum of 1 battery (2 batteries in Advance/Delay battles). The allowed maximum caliber of this battery is 140mm. Rest of the artillery must be On-Board.

b) In Assault/Defend battles, with the 15% of points players may purchase the units they wish.

10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is forbidden to drive around within the vicinity of enemy units with empty trucks, motorcycles etc. with the sole purpose of drawing fire. (For example it is forbidden to drive in circles in front of Tiger to get her to "empty her tubes" and then finish the Tiger with your own tanks).

In addition to these rules, I always encourage the usage of "realistic" unit compositions and doctrines. I've found that this is the only way to truly get excellent and fun battles.

Any comments and suggestions are welcome

Colonel von Blitz

[Drex]

Excellent list and i agree with every item on your list. In fact I will print it out and see if I can get my future opponents to abide by it also. Good work Colonel.

[VikingNo2]

I agree with about half, the smoke for coutry battery I have to disagree, move your arty, or as Gary and many other players do have some random units pop smoke to look like arty is at a position. Or the even tricker player ( Gary ) pop smoke by another unit knowing that the other player can see what unit is popping smoke then one or two turns later move your arty to that very same spot. Trust me this works.

Paradrops and Spec Ops, sould be used any time and sould be negotiated. I like playing on large maps. Para are very risky most of the time the get wiped out. Special Ops about 30-40% never make it they just get lost thats their penalty for use. I believe never is too strong but how many should be the question. Small map I totaly agree with you on this one.

No. 5 If you got it use it, thats what happens in real combat, trust me on this one.

No 6 Any dummy with a radio can call arty, this was the Russians main weakness in their doctrine, and one of the main reasons with the US ( Despite weaker armor units) was so successful

No 10 Recon units are supposed to make other units show their position, trucks are another thing I agree with you on trunks.
unless they mount a .50 cal, then I actively try to find armored cars with them, the trucks are cheaper and can kill them as well as carry stuff.

9. a. Buy as much as you want you will run out of ammo then they are useless the 10% art limit should take care of this or just reduce the amout of total arty used. Once you run out of ammo you will get crush, this normally makes people change tactics.

I would like to hear more comments about this, please

[Alexandra]

Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz
Ok, here are some "rules of honor" that I've created and honed while playing A LOT of PBEM games. These were created to counter some SP:WaW 'flaws' :

1) Reinforcements are allowed if both players agree. If not agreed, then rule of thumb is: reinforcements are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and allowed in Advance/Delay and in Assault/Defend -battles.

2) Paradrops and infiltrations are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and in Advance/Delay -battles. Paratroopers and Special Forces can still be used as regular infantry in those battles. Both are allowed in Assault/Defend battles.

3) In Meeting Engagements only engineers are allowed to place mines. In Advance/Delay battles in addition to engineer placed mines, player is allowed to buy some mines: small map = 15, medium map = 30, large map = 45 etc. In Assault/Defend battles the number of mines is unlimited.

4) Rocket launchers must reload for a minimum of 7 turns before firing another salvo (this is used with my modified 7.1 OOBs, where the ROF of Rocket Launchers was increased to 99).

5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry to counter armor is forbidden, unless the weapon was actually used in such a manner (for example german 88mm).

6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery, it is forbidden to use only smoke puffs as guidance. When you have or have had visual contact (both ground and air units qualify) to enemy On-Board artillery, you may target them.

7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of On-Board artillery batteries to direct their own fire. On-Board artillery fire is allowed to be called only by using FOs, HQ OR Platoon/Company leaders.

9) Players are allowed to use 10% (15% in Assault/Defend battles) of their points for artillery. This percentage is calculated from the amount of points available in the beginning of the inital purchase, thus the possible reinforcement points have no effect in the maximum points that are allowed to be spent for artillery.

a) In meeting engagements the Off-Board artillery is limited to a maximum of 1 battery (2 batteries in Advance/Delay battles). The allowed maximum caliber of this battery is 140mm. Rest of the artillery must be On-Board.

b) In Assault/Defend battles, with the 15% of points players may purchase the units they wish.

10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is forbidden to drive around within the vicinity of enemy units with empty trucks, motorcycles etc. with the sole purpose of drawing fire. (For example it is forbidden to drive in circles in front of Tiger to get her to "empty her tubes" and then finish the Tiger with your own tanks).

In addition to these rules, I always encourage the usage of "realistic" unit compositions and doctrines. I've found that this is the only way to truly get excellent and fun battles.

Any comments and suggestions are welcome

Colonel von Blitz

My comments:

1. This seems self -defeating. It seems to me to allow the buy of reinforcements, even if both sides disagree, in certain battle types, and if that's the case, why make it a rule

2. I agree with this.

3. I agree.

4. I agree.

5. I strongly agree. This would force players to play inside the doctrine of the country they choose to play and would tend to lead to less gaming the game, as well as making it a better teaching tool. And, to counter Viking, while, indeed, people can use anything on the field, there were often consequences. 8th Army HQ, for example, forbade the use of AA guns as AT guns, and courtmartialled more than one officer who disobeyed.

6. I sorta agree.

7. I agree with most nations. You can make an argument for any 0 unit for the Americans and Germans. Though only A0's should be used for airstrikes as that was where the FAC was assigned. And, from what I've read FOs, at least American ones, were not trained to call in air.

8. I disagree. Why can't a battery commander call in his own fire? He is an Arty officer after all, and should know how, and I do think the first FDCs were developed in WW2.

9. I agree.

10. I mostly agree. I think trucks being used for tank drawing fire is wrong and gamey, but I am attacking with cycles/cav/what have you, and they have the ability to kill the tank, and I am actually trying to close with it and not moving back and forth randomly, then that should be ok.

Alex

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
I agree with about half, the smoke for coutry battery I have to disagree, move your arty, or as Gary and many other players do have some random units pop smoke to look like arty is at a position. Or the even tricker player ( Gary ) pop smoke by another unit knowing that the other player can see what unit is popping smoke then one or two turns later move your arty to that very same spot. Trust me this works.

Move your arty, sure that works. But that's only to counter the "eye of god" feature of the game. The whole idea why I implement this "rule" is to correct the 'flaw' in the game.

Paradrops and Spec Ops, sould be used any time and sould be negotiated. I like playing on large maps. Para are very risky most of the time the get wiped out. Special Ops about 30-40% never make it they just get lost thats their penalty for use. I believe never is too strong but how many should be the question. Small map I totaly agree with you on this one.

My list is, of course, not supposed to be a law. Everything is always negotiated between the players. My "rules" are just the guidelines that I've found to work.

No. 5 If you got it use it, thats what happens in real combat, trust me on this one.

I agree. My suggestion is that only DELIBERATE usage is forbidden; meaning that I don't want to see hills that are covered with British 3.7in AA-guns that never actually had sights for ground combat...or I don't want to see defences based on 37mm/40mm AA-guns which have high FC and RF values.

No 6 Any dummy with a radio can call arty, this was the Russians main weakness in their doctrine, and one of the main reasons with the US ( Despite weaker armor units) was so successful

The doctrines must be taken into account.

9. a. Buy as much as you want you will run out of ammo then they are useless the 10% art limit should take care of this or just reduce the amout of total arty used. Once you run out of ammo you will get crush, this normally makes people change tactics.

There are ammo dumps and ammo trucks. Using these one can make arty last full battle and that's why there is this percentage rule applied.

Colonel von Blitz

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by Alexandra
8. I disagree. Why can't a battery commander call in his own fire? He is an Arty officer after all, and should know how, and I do think the first FDCs were developed in WW2.

This rule is implemented because battery commander is almost always used to target the fire for the sole purpose of getting 0.1 delay.

Colonel von Blitz

[VikingNo2]

On (9a), I believe Ammo Dumps and truck should count and part of you arty total, I was refering to limiting the off board arty.


The eye of god, good point, then does that meen I can have Sepc Ops so I can spot the arty LOL;)

On No 5 I don't agree with buying loads of AA gun for ground purposes I just think if there is a target you should be able to shoot at it with what ever you have. I like to buy multi purpose units, example M15a1 37mm AA gun I try to disable tanks and kill APCs and armored cars with them. I guess the point is mute because after rereading both post we agree.

On No 7 Many times air missions where sent in a gereral area and told to attack targets of oppertunity, thats kinda what you do when you attack with air in this game.

What are the opinions of overloading on infantry?

I'm also want to know a gereral concinsus on deleting of units from formations. I think if you are doing it to meet some preset condition then its OK. But any other ocasion should not be allowed then you whould get closer to the doctrine of that country. On this one in pitcular I would like to have comment

[Toontje]

My opinion:

*1) Reinforcements

I don't really think 10% really makes a difference. It might tip the ballanceit a bit but there are still random factors involved.

*2) Paradrops and infiltrations are

Paradrops I can see the problem with on turn 0, as it's advanced troops with little risk, but infiltrators I don't think should be much banned etc. The infiltration is a good option, so long it's not 50% or so infiltrators.

*3) Mines
I can live with these guidelines.

*4) Rocket launchers

Hmua, rocket launchers are just onboard arty.. if it's much trouble, plot an airstrike over it or use your own arty.

*5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry

It's iffy, I consider FlaK too vulnerable anyway to use in such roles. So long it's not overused I can live with it.

*6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery,

Disagree as you otherwise would be unable to counterbattery. OffB arty can also be hit without LOS.

*7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

The 1 turn later of arival usually means hit probabilities are worse.

*8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of

It's again up to the player altrough I consider it cheap.

*9) Players are allowed to use 10%

I personally use a guideline of 20%. Besides, I cannot see the point in having so much arty as it's not that interesting to watch nor really efficient.

*a) In meeting engagements the

OffB will get out of ammo. Usually I myself take a battalion of light plus a battery of heavier. Again, it's not interesting enough to play with too much arty, which means more boring play => maybe other players

*10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is

Again, doing such a thing is kinda cheap. However, what is that tiger doing unsupported anyway?

*In addition to these rules, I always encourage the usage of "realistic" unit compositions and doctrines. I've found that this is the only way to truly get excellent and fun battles.

realistic might be a problem if you don't know what was used at the time. And rigidly adhering to used tacics leaves less rome for creativity.

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by Toontje
Paradrops I can see the problem with on turn 0, as it's advanced troops with little risk, but infiltrators I don't think should be much banned etc. The infiltration is a good option, so long it's not 50% or so infiltrators.

I like to ban infiltration in all Meeting battles and in most of the Advance/Delay battles, because I find it 'unrealistic' to have infiltrated troops in a battle that is randomly occurred (Meeting) or in a battle where neither side has had that much time to prepare the attack/defences (Advance/Delay).

Hmua, rocket launchers are just onboard arty.. if it's much trouble, plot an airstrike over it or use your own arty.

And exploit the 'eye of god' feature? The rule was created because the game engine simply reload too quickly...it took 15-20 minutes to reload most of the multitubed WW2 era Rocket Launchers, this is why I choose to create this rule.

Disagree as you otherwise would be unable to counterbattery. OffB arty can also be hit without LOS.

I hate to exploit the 'eye of god' feature, by targeting On-Board artillery using only smoke puffs as guidance. If my opponent is stupid/incompetent enough to let me see his/her On-Board arty, that's when I'll call the strike.

The 1 turn later of arival usually means hit probabilities are worse.

Use FO to target on randomly selected coordinates (not the Golden Point), and most of the time, you'll get 0.3 - 0.5 delay. Now choose 0-unit of a mortar platoon, and you'll get, most of the time, a 0.1 - 0.2 delay. The rule was created in order to 'correct' this.

I personally use a guideline of 20%. Besides, I cannot see the point in having so much arty as it's not that interesting to watch nor really efficient.

This must always be negotiated, of course. Depending on battle, the percentage may wary quite a lot. My suggested percentage is just a rough guideline that works most of the time

OffB will get out of ammo. Usually I myself take a battalion of light plus a battery of heavier. Again, it's not interesting enough to play with too much arty, which means more boring play => maybe other players

I usually don't mind to fight against arty-heavy opponents, because these opponents usually are the ones that are most easily beaten

Again, doing such a thing is kinda cheap. However, what is that tiger doing unsupported anyway?

I've found that if you have a tank and supporting infantry in position, the tank opens fire when your opponent drives around with empty truck...deliberately drawing fire, though a single MG could take out the truck with a single burst.

realistic might be a problem if you don't know what was used at the time. And rigidly adhering to used tacics leaves less rome for creativity.

To really enjoy playing SP-series, I think player have to know quite a bit about WW2 doctrines and equipment. Of course I don't want to kill creativity, but one can TRY to be creative and in the same time stick with general doctrines of the nation he/she is playing.

Colonel von Blitz

[Frank W.]

how about mass using of panther g uhu and sturmtigers??

i noticed, that sturmtigers are rather cheap but VERY effective against INF in good defensive positions. of course the neighbouring hexes are effected ,too.

there were only a view build of these weapons...

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by Frank W.
how about mass using of panther g uhu and sturmtigers??

i noticed, that sturmtigers are rather cheap but VERY effective against INF in good defensive positions. of course the neighbouring hexes are effected ,too.

there were only a view build of these weapons...

You can really ruin a game by mass using any unit. Sure, it was effective to use 350 snipers in some version of SP:WaW, or it may be fruitful to use 150 50cal Jeeps to storm around. Is it fun? I don't think so.

While purchasing you may ask yourself: does this produce historically accurate as well as good and enjoyable battles?

If your answer is yes, then go ahead. If your answer is no, then you may want to go back to the purchasing screen.

Most of the time I purchase more rare units based on how many was built. If I really need heavy infantry support, I may purchase a platoon of Sturmtigers. If I need heavy AT-capability as german in late 1941, I'll buy a section of 10.5cm Tank Destroyers (there were only two prototypes on the field anyway). etc.

Though I 'published' this list of rules, I urge players more to agree with opponents what is allowed and what is forbidden. Moreover, I urge players to forget modern combined arms and try to go back in time and try to simulate WW2 era way of waging a war...trust me, it'll be more fun and you'll get even more out of SP:WaW!

Colonel von Blitz

[Drex]

Colonel: What is the difference between modern combined arms and WWII combat style? I've always tried to balance my force with infantry, armor, arty etc. Is this the modern style or WWII style? My knowledge of WWII tactics is difficient to know if I'm historical or not.

[VikingNo2]

No one commented, what about deleting units from formations ?

[Colonel von Blitz]

Originally posted by Drex
Colonel: What is the difference between modern combined arms and WWII combat style? I've always tried to balance my force with infantry, armor, arty etc. Is this the modern style or WWII style? My knowledge of WWII tactics is difficient to know if I'm historical or not.

This depends on the nationality you're playing and on the date.

If you're playing as French in the summer of 1940, I'd suggest you do not use armor in large units, but rather use small sections among infantry.

If you're playing as American in 1944-45, you should probably use well balanced combined arms.

There is no simple answer here, but hope this helps.

Originally posted by VikingNo2
what about deleting units from formations ?

I usually do not delete units from formations. Sometimes I rearrange the support weapons of a company, in order to get more concentrated firepower to my kill zones. Other situation when I modify formations is to attach truck or APCs to infantry.

Colonel von Blitz

[Capt. Pixel]

Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz
Ok, here are some "rules of honor" that I've created and honed while playing A LOT of PBEM games. These were created to counter some SP:WaW 'flaws' :

Colonel von Blitz

Permission to speak freely! Sir!


* 1) Reinforcements are allowed if both players agree.

I think that's as far as that rule needs to go, with a slight modification. 'Reinforcements are allowed unless one player disagrees.'

* 2) Paradrops and infiltrations are forbidden in ME and Advance battles.

It's not hard to justify SO Partisans appearing in either of these situations. A meeting engagement doesn't necessarily mean that neither side is supported by other elements. That ground force rushing towards the objective may be doing so to support a paradrop that was planned days before. But look! there's an enemy formation. Also, paradrops could (and did) occur concurrently (eg. A Meeting of Devils).

* 3) In Meeting Engagements only engineers are allowed to place mines.

I kind of like this. Although I sometimes do it to protect myself, I find slathering your rear area VHs and map edge flanks with mines a particularly gamey thing to do. Why, for instance, would you even know where your opponent's objectives are? Or the 'edge of the map' for that matter. In Advance or Assault battles, I'd just expect there to be stiff defenses. ( I see little difference in the two, in terms of PBEM generated battles).

* 4) Rocket launchers ...

I think these are already pretty self-limiting. Fully reloading a Nebelwerefer with one ammo truck is going to take 6 turns, anyway. I think the time scale estimate is ~2 minutes per turn, so this would fit in your time estimate. And ammo trucks cost more than most tanks. I do agree that there ought to be an outgoing ammo limit on the trucks/dumps themselves, but that's a game engine issue.

* 5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry to counter armor is forbidden.

Umm, why? I gather by this that you mean using AA exclusively in the AT role because that countries AT capability is so pathetic? (early war British 2 pdr, for instance). Unless we had agreed to play an historically probable, or re-enactment battle of a particular theatre situation, I wouldn't even bother mentioning #5.

* 6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery, it is forbidden to use only smoke puffs as guidance.

This is certainly reasonable in some types of terrain, but given open, 'flat' ground, it's not hard to see smoke plumes at 2-3 km. With any kind of altitude advantage, you could see twice that range. Spotting smoke rounds ( a device not even modelled in SPW@W) were used to bring in barrages on target.

Besides, each side's artillery assets are executing their battle at a whole different level. Strategic employment of smoke around batteries, the 'Shoot-and-Scoot' tactics are all elements of this game-within-a-game. Shoot at my smoke puffs - chances are usually better than 50% that there's nothing even there. :p
(and how could your side know there's "1 Casualty" from your bombardment?)

* 7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

I generally do this because it's prudent. With C&C on, however, I use any unit that has excess orders to call in continuing fire plots. I then use the more precise FOs to call in new plots and adjust existing ones. If my opponent isn't using these guys for his arty plots, woe to him. I'll just skip underneath his slowly adjusting barrages. (That's not very realistic either, is it?)

* 8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of On-Board artillery batteries to direct their own fire.

I agree, this is kind of cheesy. But if you're down to using the battery's 0-unit, you may already be in pretty bad shape. You could also 'game' this one and justify that the battery has an built-in FO (guy with radio).

* 9) Players are allowed to use 10% (15% in Assault/Defend battles) of their points for artillery.

This is generally the limits I would request. 10% makes you think pretty hard about what you're going to use. 15% is just enough to pound the pee-waddin' out of your opponent. 20% is just obnoxious. I consider those limits to apply the amount of points on the map. That is, 10% of the initial buy plus 10% of any reinforcements purchase later. Limits on calibre and number of batteries should be discussed at the outset, but otherwise assumed to be whatever is available to that country at that time.

* 10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is forbidden to drive around within the vicinity of enemy units with empty trucks, motorcycles etc. with the sole purpose of drawing fire.

Well, I agree, but how does one adjudicate this? Trucks might be pushing the issue, but they're already modelled to retreat automatically in certain situations. As far as MCs and jeeps and kubelwagens, I use these as reconn and they get shot at sometimes. Who's to say if that was 'baiting the Tiger' or not?

There are tactics one can use to reduce the effect of this 'abuse', like setting your Opp Fire range to shorter distances. Place less critical units forward to deliver Opp Fire first, etc.

Historically 'accurate' battles might be more enlightening, but I think they tended to be rather one-sided affairs. Many were won or lost due to conditions behind the front lines. (logistic collapse, equipment breakdowns, sabotage).

I think SPW@W's features of Availability, Rarity and Reduced squads do a fine job in keeping things 'real'.

It's the 5,342,126,785 possible 'What Ifs' that keeps this game so interesting. I think you could 'eliminate' 3,756,483,011 through rules and still have great game to play for entertainment.

[VikingNo2]

Okay Capt P; what are your terms. how about 8-9K large map

[Drex]

Hey Guys could give us a running AAR?Put it on the AAR forum.

[VikingNo2]

Drex have I played you ?

Are you up for one?