Unrealistic behavior

[doomtrader]

Hi joliverlay, next week we are going to release a demo of Strom over the Pacific, so you would have a chance to see how the game plays.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Razz

It is highly possible that the Japanese could have taken Pearl Harbor if they wanted too.

Well, no.

Not a snowball's chance.

They simply didn't have the merchant shipping needed to a) ship enough troops there to do the job and b) didn't have the merchant shipping available to supply the troops that would have been needed to do the job.

This is based on the relatively tiny number of troops they actually moved around the PTO in the first months of the war (less than 9 division equivalents, IIRC), the fact that they didn't move them all at once, the fact that Hawaii is triple the distance to cover than their other ops which would have reduced their actual capacity to 1/3rd of what they actually moved and other real world logistic factors.

They could possibly have moved three division equivalents to the Hawaiian island area of operations but only at the expense of cancelling the invasion of the Phillipines, the DEI and Malaya ... and, from memory, the US had 2-3 division equivalents in the islands. For those who know such things, it is generally accepted that to have a 50% chance of winning you need at least 3:1 odds ... which the Japs couldn't have managed.

Then there's the problem of supplying them. Because this involves a two way trip, their supply capacity would have been around 1/6th what it was in the real world operations they launched, even ignoring the problems of unloading over a beachhead or through a damaged or destroyed port and the likelihood of USN submarine operations.

Then there's the problem of speed ... Japanese merchantmen were largely in the 5-6kt maximum speed class, comparied to 9-12kts for Allied ones, which meant that they would have had to leave their bases many weeks earlier than the Striking Force to reach their Hawaiian targets about the same time ... increasing the chance of the whole operation being detected exponentially.

So, no, it was not "highly possible" in anything resembling reality even vaguely.

Phil

[Anraz]

Since we have started of thinning of another patch if there is a consensus regarding  “Hawaiian issue” we may tune down Japan AI, however that way most probably it will be perceived as a bit less aggressive in initial phase of war. We hear you so  it is up to you Players

[jomni]

If the Hawaiian threat is subdued or even eliminated, then the US player is free to send his ships and carriers to the Philippines, DEI, etc to interdict Japanese invasion. And even if you tweak the AI, the human player can still capture Hawaii if he wants to.

Regarding the AI:
Is the AI scripted?  Can it have several alternate scripts just like WITP?

[Anraz]

Can it have several alternate scripts just like WITP?

Yes. We are open to your proposals...

[Rasputitsa]

Comments made on another thread, but on scripting AI responses, could there be alternative aggressive, defensive, cautious, responses, with strategies focused on different regions. These could be selectable, or set to random, to provide some uncertainty in the AI reaction. [:)]

[Rasputitsa]

The Japanese may, or may not, have been able to take the Hawaiian Islands (more importantly be able to hold them), but you would not want to exclude the possibility. The Japanese had many rash strategies, so who is to say what they might have done.

If the Japanese had been able to 'Midway' the US carriers and with US submarines and torpedoes of limited use, in the early stages of the war, anything could have happened. [:)]

[Twotribes]

Once again the Japanese did not have the shipping or the troops for such an endeavor. This game gives them way to many troops as is. And they are way to strong.

[Razz1]

Just play the game. How many turns have you made?

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: Anraz

Since we have started of thinning of another patch if there is a consensus regarding  “Hawaiian issue” we may tune down Japan AI, however that way most probably it will be perceived as a bit less aggressive in initial phase of war. We hear you so  it is up to you Players

My vote is no, do not tone down the aggressiveness of the Japanese AI. We're talking about AI after all - it is already at a great diasadvantage against any human. I like the fact that the human player in this game has to worry about the impossible. Just as in real life. The reasoning above, concerning the actual improbability of a successful or supportable invasion of Hawaii, is no doubt very factual, however in real life the US was indeed worried about the possibility.

If I were to request a change, it would be one of 'variability' in AI choices. For example, make it so that the Japanese AI will not always carry out a Hawaiian invasion - perhaps only 1 out of 5 or 10 times. Same with an Aussie invasion.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Once again the Japanese did not have the shipping or the troops for such an endeavor. This game gives them way to many troops as is. And they are way to strong.

There were many campaigns that the Japnese did not have the logistics, or resources for, but they launched them anyway. I am agreeing that the Japanese probabily would not have been able to hold the Hawaiian Islands, if they had tried to take them. However, I would not like to exclude any strategy, or the player will have no uncertainty over what may happen next. [:)]

[Twotribes]

The Japanese simply did not have the manpower, shipping or fleet assets to wage war in the Indian Ocean, the Hawaiian Islands, The Philippines, Dutch East Indies, Singapore, Burma and Australia at the same time, the fact this game GIVES them the troops for that means it fails historically on all counts. Couple that with cutting the allied troops strength to a quarter of its potential and you have ridiculous events like Cities in India falling while Darwin falls and all the rest of the areas are falling, not to mention an attack on Hawaii.

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The Japanese simply did not have the manpower, shipping or fleet assets to wage war in the Indian Ocean, the Hawaiian Islands, The Philippines, Dutch East Indies, Singapore, Burma and Australia at the same time, the fact this game GIVES them the troops for that means it fails historically on all counts. Couple that with cutting the allied troops strength to a quarter of its potential and you have ridiculous events like Cities in India falling while Darwin falls and all the rest of the areas are falling, not to mention an attack on Hawaii.

Point taken. So play the Japanese on ''very hard' setting, thereby cutting the available resources for supporting such far-flung offensives. No transports, no offensive. It's all configurable, it's all moddable.

Perhaps you have no interest in modding. I'm sure someone however will be applying their talents to trying to more accurately simulate historical capabilities, in everything from starting OOB to the strength of units, to level of war efficiency of each country, to base PPs per city, to ... so many other factors.

You may say that such a setup should be the default, but achieving the historical balance in playtesting is incredibly time consuming and dependent on the capabilities and knowledge of the playtesters.

Thus the emphasis on moddability.

Part of the greatness of the HOI series, for instance, is the moddability. Compare HOI2 out of the box with the 'Total Realism' mod or so many others. I hope SoP can attract the same kind of modding efforts.

[17russia]

DOOMTRADER,

I have no problem with an aggressive Japan. I held HI Islands just fing and left their fleet with 2 carriers & 1 battlegroup.

One Problem;

I opend the game back up and made Japan a "Human Player", I noticed that Japan was not replacing its fleet at all. It had a ton of landingcraft and lots of patrolgroups left, but NO MEAT.

To me this is a problem because if the Japanese IA does not replace heavy units then the game is over after the Heavy stuff is taken out.


ALSO,
Resolution with the first version took the 1920 x 1080. In 1.02 ti will not take that, did something change?

[Razz1]

Soon the Rising Sun Mod will be out and it brings the ships in historically.

Philippines lasted till June using AI, of course I have seen it last much shorter, depends upon the Japanese priorites.

In Vanillia, I've only see the AI attack Hawaii twice.

I think it depends upon how you play.

Same with India. If you fight them right you can delay that just a little.

In the Rising Sun you can put off the attack much longer, but you will have to learn how to do it. I believe everthing has been pushed out by about two months if you play it right.

In fact I have not seen any attacks on India up till June for quite a few AI vs AI games with me being DEI. At this point I go back and do more testing.

If you get unlucky in Sumatra or the Philippines, Japan's attack schedule will move up.

Maybe it's my sea experience and sinking of Japanese ships? NOT

[doomtrader]

I'll take a look at the AI, why it doesn't repair it's navy. Maybe its deciding there are more important things to do.

[ptrandel]

I guess my problem with the "game" (or is it a "conflict simulation" ?) is that I wanted more of a WITP-AE lite, and I got more of an Axis and Allies heavy.

I strongly agree with the gentleman who points out that there is no way the Japanese could mount the type of offensives that the game does -- simultanously attacking Hawaii, Port Moresby, Australia, and India -- and I would like to add kicking the b'Jesus out of and easilly beating China -- all in the first few months of the war. OF these, despite having things go wildly their way for the first 6 months of the war, they could only mount preparatory attacks aimed at making the larger objectives possible. Australia could not be taken before Port Moresby; Hawaii could not be taken without Midway. I think it is pretty reasonable to say that if they could have done any of these things, that they would have. The fact that they did not -- despite winning decisively everywhere for the first 6 months -- means that they could not.

Unless the designers really want Axis and Allies here, the problem is not with AI agressiveness, but with confining the AI to the choices that were reasonably plausible, given the resources that the Japanese could muster at the time of the conflict. In that vein, the game disappoints, and honestly, will not hold my interest for long. The results and the journey are just too goofy.

- Paul

[Razz1]

Try the Rising Sun V4

In WITP-AE, many players go for India and Ceylon. So it is possible.

Remember as Allies you need to take control of all the countries.

At least USA, Great Britain and all the Chinese factions need to be controlled by a human.

The AI does not go for Hawaii every game. If you loose Pearl Harbor... you are doing something wrong. Try again.

[Tomokatu]

You must also remember that it wasn't "the first few months of the war" for the Empire of Nihon.
They'd been fighting in China for ten years before they attacked Pearl Harbour and Singapore.
They had experienced troops, a logistic train that served their purposes (although it couldn't match the later US logistics) and had developed the first dedicated, specialised amphibious troop landing boats. 
They were READY and achieved surprise. Anything's possible after that.