German vs. AI take two

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21

User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: hgilmer3

I bought a 27 inch monitor to view your maps!  (width wise.  Up and down still takes scrolling, but at least I don't have to scroll on two ranges).  I love the way you do your maps, though.  You can see the whole picture.


Wow, I only have a 24", 27" sounds awesome. I run my monitor at a 1600x1200 resolution and there is no scrolling when I view these forums. Try setting your monitor to that resolution or larger.

Jim

Edit: Oops of course you'll still have to scroll up and down. lol

User avatar
Ketza
Posts: 2228
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:11 am
Location: Columbia, Maryland

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Ketza »

Very informative AAR. I will be reading it on a consistent basis.
User avatar
Grotius
Posts: 5842
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:34 pm
Location: The Imperial Palace.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Grotius »

Excellent AAR, Jim. I love your maps!
Image
User avatar
hgilmer3
Posts: 530
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by hgilmer3 »

I thought about getting a larger one that could double as a TV, if I wanted, on the line of 32 inch, but was not sure if it would fit on my desk, and the resolution is 1300/700 or so. I wouldn't know the difference but still.

27 is a good size for me.
KurtC in the WITE PBEM module.
randallw
Posts: 2060
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:28 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by randallw »

You may want to avoid getting those Axis buddies in action until they can hit something that's surrounded; they're pretty soft.
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 5

The Finnish Army is fully released this turn and makes good progress, they even managed to isolate a routed unit and an airbase on the north tip of Lake Ladoga, though that had more to do with automatic retreat logic than anything I did.

At Pskov 4th Panzer Group breached the Russian defense across the Velikaya River, but just didn’t quite have enough movement left to fully seal the hoped for pocket around Pskov. I was forced to break down several units in order to form a solid line of defense, so it’s very possible I may be counter-attacked in the Soviet turn. Unfortunately the northern most units are just regiments, so the trapped Russians have a way out of the trap.

Slightly north of that, units from 18th Army managed to force the defending division to retreat from the marsh hex north of Lake Pskov. Unfortunately they lacked enough movement to cross the Major River hexside to occupy the marsh hex, the Russians will probably be back next turn.

3rd Panzer Group continued its drive northeast behind Vitebsk, and made it to the Dvina River. The desired pocket isn’t formed yet, but a real danger exists next turn for the defenders in and around the city.

2nd Panzer Group’s infantry failed to force a crossing at the Dnepr River northwest of Gomel this turn. But that was mostly due to lack of movement. They had to redeploy from positions further north as 4th Army infantry arrived to take their place. So they lacked sufficient movement for a deliberate attack and hasty attacks made by the few units with decent movement left, were simply too weak to force a crossing.

1st Panzer Group and 6th Army both pushed east this turn and made good progress. The intent here is to use 1st Panzer to help make a hole north of Kiev that 6th Army infantry can then move into and try and cross the Dnepr to get behind the city’s defenders. Once the north hole is achieved, 1st Panzer Group will head south a bit and drive a hole south of the city in a pincer move to try and encircle some defenders.

The 11th Army continued moving east at it leisurely pace down south. The Rumanians did manage to isolate an adventurous Russian division that had crossed the Rumanian border in the far south.

At Lvov, 17th Army with the help of the Hungarians and Slovakians reduced the entire pocket of trapped Russian units there this turn. With the elimination of the pocket this turn, that makes 65 Russian divisions destroyed, 20 of which were tank divisions. About 3 dozen regiment/brigades have also been destroyed.

With all those surrenders, I took a look at captured equipment this turn (lower left corner of this turns screenshot). Not nearly as much as I expected, but enough to equip some units with captured stuff once that is allowed by the engine.

Jim


Image
Attachments
Turn5.jpg
Turn5.jpg (2.27 MiB) Viewed 154 times
User avatar
CarnageINC
Posts: 2208
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:47 am
Location: Rapid City SD

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by CarnageINC »

I noticed your fortifying your cities, does that help with garrisoning them?
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

Yep scroll up a bit I discussed it a few posts up in reply to someone else in post 16.

Jim
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 6

The Fins continue to make good progress in the north, mostly unopposed. At Vyborg I’ve surrounded the division there and will eliminate it next turn.

Infantry from the 18th Army forced the marsh hex north of Lake Pskov again this turn. But this time they had a unit close enough to exploit the gains and a single division made the move across.

4th Panzer group saw most of the units it had hoped to trap in the Pskov pocket get out or move north of the city along the coast of Lake Pskov. So I opted to widen the breach and secure the gains I’d made from last turn’s thin breach instead of trying to make another partial pocket this turn. The result is a nice 3-4 hex wide salient that should allow me the freedom to pinch off any units still in the Pskov pocket next turn and also start a drive towards Leningrad which is now just 11 hexes away.

Near Vitebsk almost all the soviet defenders moved out of the potential pocket north of the Dvina River, so 3rd Panzer Group turned its sights east towards Smolensk. Even though Soviet resistance has stiffened significantly and many of my hasty attacks failed, reasonable progress was still made and a lone panzer division sits just 3 hexes northwest of that city at the end of the drive.

It may be time to start moving 2 divisions at a time in game, as a lot of my single division hasty attacks are starting to fail. This will reduce my gains each turn, but should cut down on my losses and allow me to start winning most of my attacks again.

Infantry from 9th Army cleared the few remaining Soviet units south of Vitebsk and also widened the breach to the east created by 4rd Panzer Group to help open the supply route for the planned drive on Smolensk. They should be able to take Vitebsk next turn.

4th Army infantry made several attacks across the Dnepr this turn and cleared a lot of the east bank. Unfortunately this used up too much movement for a lot of the divisions and they were unable to cross the river. They have a good bridgehead across the river north of Mogilev however, so next turn should see the majority of the rest of the Army getting across.

2nd Panzer group had a very tough time getting across the Dnepr, but did succeed on grabbing a thin 2 hex long beachhead on the east bank. Although unable to advance further due to ZOCs, they did manage to route units in two additional hexes just east of the spearhead.

Next turn they should be able to widen their toehold to allow the rest of the Group to cross and begin a drive on either Gomel or Smolensk. It depends on how well 3rd Panzer Group does in its move. If they need help I’ll send 2nd Panzer Group northeast, otherwise it’ll head for Gomel.

After seeing my ambitious plans to pocket big chunks of the Red army get thwarted at both Pskov and Vitebsk, I decided to scale down my expectations some. So this turn 1st Panzer Group had to be satisfied with surrounding a single stack of three divisions (2 of them Tank divisions). They also made good progress to the east routing a whole slew of soviet units.

Next turn infantry from 17th Army should hopefully reach the area just east of Proskurov, thus freeing up the rest of 6th Army to head northeast into the breach created by 1st Panzer group. If not I’ll have to slow down my progress a bit as I’m running out of infantry to use on flank guard duty.

In the south 11th Army and the Rumanians reached the Soviet defense line, but most of the units lacked enough movement to attack it. I did manage to break a few Russians but not enough to allow me to continue east next turn without significant fighting first.

As this turns screenshot shows, I heavily invested in fortified zones this turn. This is the start of what will become my winter line. A fallback position that I intend to hold at all costs come the blizzards. Anything east of the line I’ll fight a delaying action for, but once I fallback to the winter line, my units will stand and die.

Since fortifications cannot increase beyond 2 if there isn’t an enemy unit within 25 hexes, I wanted to get the line on map as soon as possible so it can dig in while I’m pushing the Russians east. If they can get to level 3 or 4 before the Russians get pushed too far for digging to continue, I’ll be happy. They can then begin digging some more as soon as the Russian counter-attack gets to within 25 hexes again.

In the north near Leningrad, they may never stop digging, since it’s so close to the front lines up there. If APs allow, I may begin a second line up north along the Dvina, but I really don’t want to have to fall back that far up north. But having not experienced the winter in game yet, I have no idea if I’ll have to or not.

Jim


Image
Attachments
Turn6.jpg
Turn6.jpg (1.9 MiB) Viewed 154 times
randallw
Posts: 2060
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:28 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by randallw »

The computer seems to be inviting you to create pockets very close to the border.
User avatar
henri51
Posts: 1151
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by henri51 »

Nice AAR. As you can see, getting units across the Dneiper is not so easy...

Henri
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 7

Finnish forces continue their advance towards the no move line. Resistance is sparse and they easily repulse anything they’ve run into.

At Pskov, the Soviet units in the Pskov area all moved a hex or two north, but the difficult marsh terrain combined with ZOC penalties prevented their escape from the threatened pocket. I’ve now trapped 7 divisions and two brigades (1 Para 1 AT) in the pocket.

4th Panzer Group also began a drive northeast towards Leningrad and made good progress routing most of the defenders it ran into in the difficult terrain with a 2 panzer division stack used for hasty attacks. The panzers ran out of movement however just as they cleared the first hex across the luga River, so they were unable to cross.

3rd Panzer Group also made good progress as it drove east and southeast to begin the encirclement of Smolensk. Lead elements managed to cut the eastern rail line, which leaves just one rail line into the city.

After their move, I flew lots of recon missions in the area east between the 3rd Panzer Group and Moscow. I could not find any defenders except for some stacks around Moscow itself (most of which appear to be airbases), so it looks like I’ve finally managed to wade through the mass of Soviet defenders. The AI is going to have to make some major redeployments next turn, or my Panzers are going to fly eastward unopposed.

2nd Panzer Group spent the turn widening its bridgehead and driving SE towards Gomel. They managed to get adjacent to the city in the north and west. This threatens the large group of defenders further west in the Pripyat Marshes, so I expect them to pull out during the Soviet moves. If not I may look at trying to form a pocket by heading south to meet with 1st Panzer Group. If that could be pulled off, I’d trap about 30-40 units in the marshes.

In the south 1st panzer Group drove the rest of the way to the Dnepr River, but lacked enough movement to cross. 6th Army was able to redeploy a lot of their infantry into the breach this turn, so I expect to get across the Dnepr next turn north of Kiev.

11th Army and the Rumanians slugged away at the Soviet defensive line this turn and managed to break about half of it. However, very little progress was made towards the east. Once 1st Panzer Group is freed up from making the breach for 6th Army, it’ll head south and help break open this front as well.

Jim


Image
Attachments
Turn7.jpg
Turn7.jpg (1.63 MiB) Viewed 154 times
User avatar
Avenger
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2002 11:38 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Avenger »

Army Group Center looks really good, but Army Group North is way behind schedule. Nothing set in stone, but my games have Pskov by turn three and knocking on Leningrad on turn 7.

I don't think that you can reach Moscow, but I would go for it. It is mostly clear in August. If you get to September and haven't reached Moscow the defenses will get really thick.

I am enjoying your AAR Jim, and your maps are the best that I have seen. Can you post a screen of the units that you have destroyed? Thanks!
randallw
Posts: 2060
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:28 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by randallw »

That map is fort-crazy in the center. [:D]
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: randallw

That map is fort-crazy in the center. [:D]

Not crazy lol, just a double line wherever there isn't a river to defend.

Jim
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

Turn 8

In the north 4th Panzer Group managed to get a bridgehead across the Luga River, even though Soviet defenses have grown huge over the past two turns. I now face a line of three divisions in any hex between my troops and Leningrad that needs to be breached at the turn start just to get things moving, and this is becoming more and more difficult to push through each turn.

18th Army eliminated the Pskov pocket and also drove north towards the coast, making good progress along the east bank of the Narva River. They’ll turn east as soon as they reach the coast.

The 16th and 9th Armies have been stretching their lines thinner with every passing turn as the panzers make deep penetrations in the north and center. I’m starting to eye the Soviet defenders opposing these two armies as a potential mass pocket I can try and form. I would have to divert both the 4th and 3rd Panzer groups and apply them to the effort, but the potential payoff is huge if I can pull it off.

3rd Panzer group faced much stiffer resistance to the east this turn and failed to make much progress to the east. They did manage to cross the Dnepr SE of Smolensk, so I should be able to isolate that city next turn.

With the Soviets stripping their defenses to send divisions to blunt 3rd Panzer Groups eastward drive, 4th Army faced a much weaker defense this turn and managed to break almost everything that opposed it. The only hex that managed to hold was a strong tank and motorized division. Should they fail to leave in the Soviet move, my goal is to trap and isolate these two strong divisions next turn if I can.

Breakout! 2nd Panzer Group shattered the Soviet defenders around Gomel and managed to race SE and force large numbers of airbases to rebase. A check of air losses for the turn reports only 250 Soviet planes lost, so it doesn’t look like many were caught on the ground. Total air losses are approx 1000 Axis and 7500 Soviet at the end of this turn, so I’ve been destroying a little over 200 a turn since the initial 5k destroyed on turn 1.

Though the breakout for 2nd Panzer group had me thinking I’d be able to pocket the few units remaining in the Pripyat Marshes, the reality of the situation soon sunk in when 1st Panzer Groups units started to cross the Dnepr River.

The terrain here is simply too bad for armor and motorized units to use, so I abandoned the attack east and sent the Group slicing south instead. They managed to form a porous pocket around the defenders of Zhitomir and Vinnitsa of about 25 units with help from the Rumanians.

11th Army managed to break the entire Russian defensive line that opposed it this turn and made pretty good progress east considering how slow its units are.

With the arrival of August, I’m looking at just 8 more turns of clear weather before the mud hits. After looking over this turns moves, I’ve decided it’s time to make some strategic goals for the next couple of month’s clear weather.

The idea of trying to form a large pocket of Soviet units in and around Velikie Luki with the 4th and 3rd Panzer Groups is a very enticing idea to me. If 4th PG relocates south a bit and then drives due east from Pskov along the rail line, I think it can make pretty good progress for about 3-4 turns before turning straight South.

At the same time 3rd PG can drive north along the east side of the two large marshes north and south of Velikie Luki. The trick is making enough progress so that when the Soviets try and leave the closing pocket, most of their units will have to move through marsh terrain to get out.

As we saw at Pskov, marshes can slow the units down enough to allow me to take several turns to close a pocket without the units escaping. The risk however is I will make no further progress east towards Moscow except a few hexes a turn that the infantry might be able to manage.

With its big breakout this turn, 2nd PG has three options. Head NE towards Moscow, head E towards Kursk or head SE to assist 1st PG in trying to pocket a large group of the Kiev defenders.

Again I’m tempted to go for unit destruction vs. territory gained, but I just don’t know if my panzers can pull off such a huge pocket in the clear terrain of the south. The AI is very good at identifying and escaping pockets, and if I waste what clear weather remains in a futile attempt at bagging 20 or 30 divisions, it’ll hurt big time come winter since I’ll lack the ground to give up in a fighting withdrawal.

So what does everyone think?

Jim


Image
Attachments
Turn8.jpg
Turn8.jpg (2.22 MiB) Viewed 154 times
User avatar
Avenger
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2002 11:38 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Avenger »

In the real world, the way was clear to Moscow in August of 1941, but Hitler saw an opportunity to pocket a massive amount of Soviet troops in the south. I believe that this was a success and 300,000 troops were captured, however, by the time the Tanks were once again rolling towards Moscow the road was no longer clear.

Those who do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

My thought on the subject.
User avatar
Redmarkus5
Posts: 4454
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:59 pm
Location: 0.00

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Redmarkus5 »

In this game world you will not find the road to Moscow to be as clear of enemy troops as you might expect. You run the risk of getting bogged down in the centre with a large Soviet force intact on your flank, thus entering winter over-extended. I would concentrate on shortening your line before October but taking care of the south and then digging in for the mud and snow turns, which will be very tough for you.
WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2
B455
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:07 pm

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by B455 »


Enjoying your AAR. Good work, thanks. As for opinions, I think in the north sector you are in trouble dealing with growing number of Soviet divisions sitting on rugged terrain before Leningrad. Your line seems thin and provides Soviets a good counter-attack ground near Pskov I think. Maybe your forces are spread too wide in the center - Pz Groups fighting in two distinct directions rather than fighting in cooperation and supporting each other to get to Moscow...

Just some thoughts. BTW, I recall that you playtested a lot Daniel McBride´s scenario Drang Nach Osten made for TOAW...that had a lot of depth in it. How would you compare feeling playing WiTe to DNO? Sorry, offtopic.
User avatar
Jim D Burns
Posts: 3991
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Location: Salida, CA.

RE: German vs. AI take two

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: B455
Just some thoughts. BTW, I recall that you playtested a lot Daniel McBride´s scenario Drang Nach Osten made for TOAW...that had a lot of depth in it. How would you compare feeling playing WiTe to DNO? Sorry, offtopic.

I think DNO was as good as it gets in TOAW, but it still fell short in many areas. Between the two WitE is far superior. TOAW simply lacked the dedicated focus a large campaign like the Russian front requires. Mr. McBride and I spent months working together on his scenario trying to jury rig fixes into the scenario to make it work, and in the end he came away with a splendid scenario for TOAW, I doubt there was a better scenario ever made for that engine.

But it was nowhere near as good a simulation of the war in Russia as this game is. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever played a PC or board game that felt as right as this game does when it comes to the war in Russia. I’m not talking OOBs here, both McBride’s scenario and this title have superb OOBs (McBride’s OOB may even be more accurate, I don’t know as I haven’t delved into that aspect of this game yet), the game engine is what I’m referring to.

Even though the campaign is massive and the number of units involved is huge, I find this game system very intuitive and I’m nowhere near as overwhelmed trying to play this game as I was when I first tried to get into playing the DNO scenario. In order to enjoy DNO I had to spend months getting into it and learning all the special rules/conditions he had to come up with to tweak the system.

Even then I ended up spending at least another 6 months perhaps longer working with him almost daily on improving the scenario. In the end DNO was at the top of the heap when it came to TOAW scenario design, but it was flush with special house rules since the game system simply wasn’t up to the task of simulating the conflict accurately.

But what simply blows TOAW out of the water is the AI. This is the best AI I have ever seen in any game period. Granted I’m playing conservatively as I would vs. a human opponent, so I haven’t pushed the AI as hard as I could have. But I have tried to play a good game and I’ve yet to encounter an AI decision that I feel was a bad move.

I did a lot of scenario design work on TOAW and I know what that game entailed when it came down to trying to script an AI for a large scenario. Nothing in TOAW could ever be considered a reactive AI, it was scripted behavior pure and simple and easy to beat once you figured out the scripts. WitE reacts to my moves, which is original in any wargame.

Jim
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”