German vs. AI take two

[Redmarkus5]

TOAW was the leader in its day, IMO, but that day is long past. WiTE sets a new standard in strategic war gaming, and is specifically designed to deal with this theatre of war, which TOAW was not. TOAW attempted to be all things to all men, and that was probably asking too much of it.

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 9

Finnish units have reached the no attack line north of Leningrad and built a fortified line. With so many Finnish units scheduled to withdraw, I think I’ll need the fortified zones to augment my defense here for a while.

4th Panzer Group broke out and reached the coast west of Leningrad. Next turn I’ll redeploy the group south and it’ll begin driving southeast to try and straighten up my lines before the weather changes. Infantry from 18th Army will take over the final drive on Leningrad.

East of Smolensk 3rd Panzer Group made only a couple hexes progress this turn, but it did manage to break a lot of the stacks of defenders that opposed it. However infantry from 9th Army had to be used to take advantage of the breaks in the line as the panzer all ran out of movement from all the fighting.

Smolensk was isolated this turn and will fall next turn, freeing up a large amount of infantry for the drive towards Moscow.

4th Army Infantry again managed to break most of what opposed it and made good progress east.

2nd Panzer Group consolidated its position this turn as I lacked sufficient infantry to use to guard its flanks. Once the infantry to the west clears the marshes, I’ll have plenty of help to support a drive on Kursk.

1st Panzer group continued southeast and formed two small pockets around 14 units. Infantry from 17th Army reduced the two pockets around Zhitomir and Vinnitsa, and will be able to advance SE next turn to reduce this turns new pockets.

11th Army continued its plodding advance east and managed to isolate 2 units near Odessa.

After giving it a lot of consideration, I’ve decided to continue towards Moscow with just the 3rd PG and supporting infantry. Though the going is getting a lot tougher with each turn, if I can manage 2 or 3 hexes east per turn I should be able to get into the city before the weather changes, though it’ll be close.

2nd PG will grab Kursk, and then head north to assist in the drive on Moscow if time permits.

I definitely need to straighten my lines up however, so 4th PG is tasked with that task up north and will head SE to try and link up with the salient being created by 3rd PG. 1st PG in the south will drive SE to clear the rest of the west bank of the Dnepr if it can.

I've added the losses and captured equipment to this turns screenshot. I'm struck by how few tanks have been captured given that the Soviets have lost over 9k AFVs.

Jim

[Redmarkus5]

Interesting shot of Kiev there, with the city hex itself apparently empty of enemy troops. This is something I have been reporting for a while and Joel asked for save games with examples. However, I see that Smolensk has a stack of Soviet units on it.

I am interested to see what you find in Kiev when you make your move on the city.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Interesting shot of Kiev there, with the city hex itself apparently empty of enemy troops. This is something I have been reporting for a while and Joel asked for save games with examples. However, I see that Smolensk has a stack of Soviet units on it.

I am interested to see what you find in Kiev when you make your move on the city.

D'oh sorry about that, I forgot to fly recons at the end of this turn, I usually fly a line of recons 1 hex behind the front every 3 or so hexes at turn start, and then deeper recons behind the lines as breakthroughs occur. I then fly a line about 4 hexes back from the front after I’m done moving, and I hit all the close cities as well, I simply forgot to fly em before taking all the screenshots for this image.

There are defiantly units inside the city hex. Since the recent patches I haven’t had a city yet that was left undefended.

Jim

[Redmarkus5]

OK, thanks. I'm patched to 1.02 Beta and still see numerous examples of the problem on the Axis side while I play as the Soviets. Let me know how it goes.

[randallw]

You have enough captured equipment for a medium tank battalion. [:)]

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 10

18th Army infantry took over positions west of Leningrad from 4th Panzer Group this turn. Next turn they’ll be able to begin their attack towards the heavily defended city.

4th Panzer Group drove southeast towards Novgorod. Hopefully they can isolate the city next turn and continue their drive southeast, but the terrain in the area does not suit panzers.

Last turn a few divisions of the 16th Army had made a small dent north of Vitebsk in the Russian lines. The Russians responded by pulling back their forces along most of the defensive line that would have been threatened should a breakthrough near Velikie Luki occur, so 16th Army began to advance east this turn, as its lines shorten I can reform more of its divisions and the armies ability to put pressure on the Russians each turn should start to increase.

3rd Panzer Group continued its drive east and reached the outskirts of Vyazma. I should be able to isolate the city next turn and continue east.

4th Army and 2nd Panzer Group were almost able to form a large pocket of units northeast of Gomel. Unfortunately I lacked enough mobile units to close the pocket as it began to form since I had already moved the majority of the 2nd PG units when the breakthrough occurred.

South of Kiev the smaller of the two pockets I formed last turn was able to reconnect its supply, so the infantry from 17th Army took over pocket duty from 1st Panzer Group. 1st Panzer then drove south and formed another porous pocket around 9 Soviet divisions with help from 11th Army units. I doubt the pocket will hold this turn, but it should allow me to seal a tighter pocket around most of the units next turn.

I should say at this point it feels like something is about to give in game. Each turn it gets a bit easier to make progress across most of the map, and as I destroy more divisions each turn it may reach a tipping point where the Russians no longer have enough units left on map to oppose my entire line very soon. But with mud fast approaching, that tipping point may come too late for me to capitalize on it.

Jim

[Q-Ball]

Jim;

Following your AAR, because like you I just started, and I'm playing same scenario/same side. I'm also finishing Turn 10.

What are your losses?

SOV: 2.4 mil men, 12,500 AFVs also about 7000 planes

AXIS: 200K, just under 1000 AFVs

AGN: Not quite as close as you to Leningrad, but 4th PzGp has just passed Lake Niemen, and is turning north. Probably will stall though. Alot of Soviet Units up there.

AGC: Also that big bulge near Smolensk, but the 2 Panzer Groups are in the suburbs of Rhzev, Vyazma,Bryansk.

AGS: 1st Panzer Group is accross the Dnepr. Cherkassy is fallen, and approching Kivrograd.

Overall, there are very few Soviet combat units visible in the South. I didn't intend to make this a big push, but the Soviets appear to be fleeing.

Anyway, hope that helps, not sure how we compare.

[MrLongleg]

How do you create those giant maps - could use that for my AAR. Nicely written, thx for sharing...

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Haudrauf1962

How do you create those giant maps - could use that for my AAR. Nicely written, thx for sharing...

Check out post #23 in this thread:

tm.asp?m=2647958

Jim

[*Lava*]

Inspiring AAR.

Watching with keen interest.

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 11

Hi Q-Ball, see this turns screenshot for a tally of the losses at turn end.

18th Army tried its first attack against the strong fortified rough hex of Krasnogvardeysk this turn with six divisions in a deliberate attack. The battle saw a soviet reserve rifle division enter on the side of the defense and the final attacking numbers were 97000+ vs. 48,000+ defenders. Fortifications in the hex are 4, so the Soviets CV of 650 increased to 1466 and my CV of 589 only increased to 942. Loses for both sides were about 3,500.

Next turn I’ll be able to send 9 divisions against the hex, and I’ll prep it with massive air to ground attacks first in an effort to soften it up. I’m also bringing in 3 pioneer companies from the neighboring 16th Army to assign to the 3 attacking corps next turn, though it may take an additional turn before they can be used, I’m not sure.

4th Panzer group isolated Novgorod this turn and managed to get a foothold across the Volkhov River as well. If the Soviet defenders just south of the PG start to pull back in their turn the way the defenders near Velikie Luki did, I think I’ll send the PG northeast instead. It would be nice to clear the entire Volkhov River before the mud arrives.

16th Army surrounded a straggler division and continued its advance east against the retreating Soviets.

3rd Panzer Group isolated Vyazma this turn and made good progress east. The lead unit for the group is now just 10 hexes away from Moscow.

2nd Panzer Group made good progress towards Kursk and also managed to create several small pockets of defenders with the help of the infantry in the area.

6th Army took over the southern flank duties for the 2nd PG breach and also closed the back door on Kiev this turn.

As expected the large porous pocket formed by 1st Panzer group managed to secure its supply lines this turn. The soviets also moved a lot of heavy units into the area in an apparent attempt to hold the route open for the units inside to escape. As can be seen by the mass of routed units near Dnepropetrovsk, lots of fighting was required this turn to re-close the pocket.

In the process of closing the pocket again, 1st PG took Kirovograd and broke out to the east making good progress towards Dnepropetrovsk this turn.

11th Army helped seal the pocket this turn. Next turn it’ll turn south to take Nikolaev and seal in the defenders around Odessa.

Jim

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Avenger

In the real world, the way was clear to Moscow in August of 1941, but Hitler saw an opportunity to pocket a massive amount of Soviet troops in the south. I believe that this was a success and 300,000 troops were captured, however, by the time the Tanks were once again rolling towards Moscow the road was no longer clear.

Those who do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

My thought on the subject.

Um, no. In the real world AGC had a very rough time of it taking Smolensk and the road to Moscow was barred going into mid summer. Western and Reserve Fronts were launching counterattacks from August through September (and weakening themselves in the process.)

AGC also had severe logistical issue by this time and this alone mandated a pause in the advance.

Clearing the flanks made it easier to resume the advance towards Moscow. Typhoon started off brilliantly in large part precisely because Bryansk Front's southern flank was hanging in the air when Guderian jumped off from the southwest and didn't have to worry about the now destroyed Southwestern Front.

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 12

Getting pioneers into the HQs of the three attacking Corps of 18th Army helped this turn and the heavily dug in rough mountain hex falls after forts dropped from 4 to 3 during the combat. I was also able to straighten my lines a bit clearing the rest of the marsh hexes due south of Leningrad.

Of course this means I’ve only got a two hex attack on the coast next turn, so my attack will have to shift to the corner hex 2 hexes south so I can again get a 9 division attack next turn.

It’s going to be slow going for sure in this area from now on, but if I can make one hex a turn, I should be able to clear everything south of the Neva River before mud sets in. I’ll have to have at least one very good turn that clears 2 or 3 hexes if I hope to get across the Neva before then.

4th Panzer Group split duties and sent one corps northeast to begin clearing the west side of the Volkhov River and the other southeast to get behind the Russian infantry currently opposing 16th Army. This Corp will try and assist the 16th Army in clearing the dense marsh terrain to the south before mud arrives.

3rd Panzer Group didn’t waste any time trying to widen the thin corridor it’s blasted into the Russian lines. Instead it drove hard to the east and cleared another six hexes. The lead panzer division is now only 4 hexes from the first Moscow hex, so it looks like I’ll get into the city before mud, but my lines are not going to be very defensible come winter, so I’ll probably have to withdraw if I can’t widen the breach before bad weather.

The only real hope for staying in Moscow to defend during the winter is 4th Army. If it can continue making good progress east every turn, it’ll clean up the southern shoulder of the salient and make Moscow much easier to defend. But this turn saw an appreciable strengthening of the soviet defenses facing 4th Army and many of the attacks it made failed, so although they broke a lot of defenders, by turn end only 1 hex at most was gained and in some areas none were taken.

2nd Panzer Group made good progress east towards Kursk. In the process it pocketed eight units northwest of Sumy, but it’s a porous pocket and may get broken in the soviet move.

1st Panzer Group didn’t move much this turn as it lacked supplies and fuel, so instead it consolidated its positions and re-sealed the pocket around the two units northeast of Kirovograd which had managed to regain a supply link in the soviet move.

11th Army reached the outskirts of Nikolaev and the Rumanians sealed off Odessa this turn. As soon as Nikolaev falls 11th Army will head back southwest and help the Rumanians reduce Odessa.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 13

3 more hexes fall near Leningrad this turn, progress is going well here considering how well dug in the defenders are.

4th Panzer Group only moved up 1 hex along the Volkhov River this turn. I had to conduct a deliberate attack with my two panzer divisions from XXXXI Corps to clear the marsh hex west of the small town of Posadnikovo, and although they had enough movement left to force the small town’s defenders to retreat afterwards, they were unable to move into the town itself due to lack of remaining movement.

The LVI Panzer Corp made better progress and cleared most of the west bank of the Pola River this turn. This deep drive has the potential to trap the 10 divisions defending to the west of the marshes next turn.

3rd Panzer Group made no attacks this turn. Soviet stacks have become very large along both sides of the salient and they counter-attacked in their turn forcing a retreat at the junction of 3rd Panzer Group and 9th Army.

So I took this turn to allow the infantry to retake the lost hex and move forward in more strength. This will allow my drive on Moscow to continue next turn, though I’m starting to doubt I can reach it due to the sudden increase in the numbers of defenders and their strength this turn.

4th Army’s infantry made good progress this turn, routing everything that opposed it and advancing about 3 hexes.

As expected the porous pocket formed by 2nd Panzer Group last turn managed to reconnect supply and 3 of the 7 units inside escaped. I re-sealed the pocket this turn with infantry and 2nd Panzer Group continued its drive on Kursk. Units from the group are now adjacent to both Kursk and Sumy and should be able to isolate both cities next turn.

1st Panzer Group reached the outskirts of Dnepropetrovsk this turn and is also just 2 hexes away from Zaporozhye. They also managed to get a division across the Dnepr River south of Dnepropetrovsk, so any potential defense of these two cities is now unhinged and I should be able to isolate them next turn.

11th Army captured Nikolaev this turn, and the Rumanians occupied an abandoned Odessa.

XL Panzer Corp arrived this turn and was attached to the 4th Panzer Group. It was the only Panzer Group able to accommodate the Corps without incurring command penalties. I’m loath to commit the two powerful armor divisions that arrived with XL Corp this turn. Both are at 102% of TO&E strength.

With most of my other Panzer divisions severely short of panzers (average of about 70% TO&E) these two divisions are my only powerful units on map for possible counter-attacks during the blizzards. I think I’ll leave them in Pskov as a strategic reserve since mud is so close and I really don’t have a critical task for them right now.

If I tried to get them to the front, it’d take another turn or two just to arrive and at most they’d only get one or two turns to attack before the mud

Jim

[Grotius]

Very cool. I'm curious -- do you get all those Fortified Regions as reinforcements, or can Germany build them? Do you anticipate having to defend as far west as the Dnepr during the coming winter? It's quite an impressive line of forts!

I'm playing the Sovs in my current grand campaign, so I don't know how production/reinforcements work for Germany.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Very cool. I'm curious -- do you get all those Fortified Regions as reinforcements, or can Germany build them? Do you anticipate having to defend as far west as the Dnepr during the coming winter? It's quite an impressive line of forts!

I'm playing the Sovs in my current grand campaign, so I don't know how production/reinforcements work for Germany.

Germany can build them for 4 APs. I don't view them as combat units, just brigade sized construction units. I'll disband them as soon as I need to re-occupy the hexes. I assume at some point I'll be pushed back that far, and a line of level 4 or 5 forts behind the Dnepr will be a nice fallback line if I can dig in that deep before the Russians arrive.

These are the only “new” units Germany can build. Unlike Russia no new combat units allowed, so what you see is what you get for Germany. This makes their standing army very fragile once units begin to get destroyed. The unit losses are irreplaceable, which I disagree with in principle, they should have the option to at least rebuild destroyed units. With the system as it currently is, eventually they’ll simply lack enough units to form a cohesive front line.

Jim

[karonagames]

they should have the option to at least rebuild destroyed units

The Germans do rebuild destroyed units, the axis allies do not.

[karonagames]

@ Jim D. This is making me very nervous- there are striking similarities to Lee's Barbarossa AAR; let's just say he did not have a very good first winter! If you can broaden your front before the blizzard hits I think that would help. AGC's northern Flank is looking a tad exposed. Regiments are not great in the front line when it gets chilly.

You have to be thinking about your 1942 start line, and imagine what it would be like if AGN loses 3-6 hexes during the winter, AGC 6-9, and AGC 8-10 hexes. If you are hoping to get Moscow in 1942 I think you need to start as close to Kalinin in the North and Tula in the South as you can, to have a base for encirclement.

The other point to note is that a fort line running along the whole front north to south will hold enough manpower for 15-20 full strength infantry divisions.

[CarnageINC]

Good job on the AAR, love the long view maps you got going on.