German vs. AI take two

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Hey Jim,

I'm playing the Soviet side against the German AI on "Normal," and I too am on turn 16, so it's kinda fun to compare our front lines. In my game, too, the Germans have stalled just short of Leningrad, but they are 30+ miles out and not as close to Lake Ladoga as you are. The AI has barely made any progress with the Finns, though; they are close to their starting positions. How have you done up there?

Likewise, my Germans have an armor spearhead about 40-50 miles from Moscow, so again just a tad behind you.

But you've done far better in the south than the AI has done against me. It is only now bearing down on Odessa and Kursk, both of which I still hold! The AI took more time there mainly because it liquidated a big pocket of my troops in the Lvov area. Indeed, I still hold Kiev, though I will have to give it up in a turn or two, I think.

Also, my losses are slightly smaller than those of your AI opponent. I've lost 1.9 million men, 29,000 guns, 11,900 AFVs; "your" Sovs have lost 2.7 million, 33,000 guns, 12,500 AFVs.

In general, I'm pleasantly surprised with the play of my AI opponent. It's not perfect, but I haven't seen it make any real boneheaded moves. Maybe it could've been more aggressive early on. I think maybe it's missed an opportunity to push the Finns forward, and I suppose it should've diverted more troops to break out faster in the south. I think it's somewhat easier to play the Sovs early on than the Germans; the Sovs did win, after all. If I had to play this scenario again, I'd probably give the AI a boost of some sort, but not too big a boost.

The Russians abandoned Finnish territory, so I’ve reached the no move line and built a line of forts to match his. With a lot of stuff scheduled to withdraw, I’ll probably only manage a regiment in each border hex very soon, so who knows perhaps there’ll be a winter offensive by the Soviets in Finland as well.

LOL, I wouldn’t call 800,000 more losses slightly smaller. That’s a lot of potential divisions (almost 70 I’d say) that you currently field that the AI no longer has in my game. I am surprised at how close the guns and AFVs are though. I guess there is just so much hardware you can lose in 1941, so that may explain why I’ve destroyed so much more manpower without showing as big a difference in the hardware.

I do have to say though, I’ve been gentle to my AI opponent, I could probably have added close to another million casualties to the tally had I not been. I have been using self restraint and not pushed the AI as far as I know I could have. I’ve perhaps made a few moves I would not use vs. a human in my game, but for the most part I’ve played as if I was facing a human. I believe this has presented me with a far more challenging game, which of course increases the enjoyment factor a lot.

Jim

[Grotius]

I do have to say though, I’ve been gentle to my AI opponent, I could probably have added close to another million casualties to the tally had I not been. I have been using self restraint and not pushed the AI as far as I know I could have. I’ve perhaps made a few moves I would not use vs. a human in my game, but for the most part I’ve played as if I was facing a human. I believe this has presented me with a far more challenging game, which of course increases the enjoyment factor a lot.

I like this philosophy of play vs the AI. I generally do the same thing, but in my game I probably should've given more ground to the Finns, and in the south, to give the game more of a real-life feel (and to give me a bit more of a challenge). Now I'm playing around with difficulty levels. I gave the AI 110-120 in most categories except Logistics, which I've left at 100, because I'm interested to see how the winter affects German supply.

Do you have any thoughts on difficulty level? I want a challenge, but I also want to see historical effects, like diminished supply in winter. When I gave the AI 125 in logistics, suddenly every German unit was in "green" supply, which bugged me, heh.

[*Lava*]

Fascinating viewing!

Love the shots of the Kharkov pocket.

What is your philosophy concerning the Luftwaffe? I tend to keep them closer to the front lines... and seem to take a bit more losses as well.

Cheers!

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Grotius
Do you have any thoughts on difficulty level? I want a challenge, but I also want to see historical effects, like diminished supply in winter. When I gave the AI 125 in logistics, suddenly every German unit was in "green" supply, which bugged me, heh.

Without the ability to increase German production by about double, I don’t think you’re going to get a good German AI opponent in the game right now, without severely handicapping yourself first. And in that case you’re not really playing WitE anymore as far as combat results, winter effects, etc. go, so I prefer to play as the Germans vs. an AI opponent right now.

The AI simply isn’t very good at blitzkrieg style attacks that require it to combine breakthrough combats and deep penetration maneuvers. It ends up leaving itself exposed to getting valuable units pocketed far too easily and too often. So what you see is what players who take advantage of AI weakness have achieved and that’s Berlin falling in 1943. Not a very challenging endeavor if you ask me.

If you play conservatively like I do and restrain yourself from taking advantage of AI stupidity, I still think the German AI will need at least double the current level of production to give a human player a run for his money. Our attacks and strategies even when held back are still going to kill a lot more stuff than the current German economy can come anywhere near replacing.

So what you have is a fragile yet powerful German army that human opponents strive to conserve for as long as possible. The AI has no such ability, so it throws itself at you over and over until casualties reach a tipping point and everything collapses in on itself. Double the production output and the AI will have a lot more staying power in a long campaign. It’ll still collapse eventually but perhaps it’ll be in late 44 instead of early 43 when that happens.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Lava
What is your philosophy concerning the Luftwaffe? I tend to keep them closer to the front lines... and seem to take a bit more losses as well.

So far the Luftwaffe has held its own in game and does what I ask it when I ask it to, so I’m embarrassed to say I haven’t yet looked very deep into the air power aspect of the game. I suspect as things progress, I’ll need to focus more and more attention on the air game, but for now I’ve simply looked at it as a tool that I can use to help break down fortresses or enhance my combat abilities in tough fights.

I don’t like to move my airfields a lot, as I suspect that increases operational losses of damaged aircraft. So I generally only move the fields when the front line gets more than 10+ hexes away.

That said, I’ve recently made big gains down south, so those airfields will be redeployed soon. But I think I’m going to recall everything to the national reserve during mud to help rest and refit my groups, so I’ll wait to move the bases until after I pull everything in. Then I’ll send them back out just before the snow offensives down south. After that, I think I’ll keep everything in reserve again until spring.

Jim

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I don’t like to move my airfields a lot, as I suspect that increases operational losses of damaged aircraft. So I generally only move the fields when the front line gets more than 10+ hexes away.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

My operational losses are a lot higher than I initially expected and I agree it is almost certainly coming from moving my air fields too frequently.

[Jim D Burns]

Turn 18

Not much at all happened this turn other than slogging my infantry forward through the mud to try and get it into the line to replace my armor. So no screenshots or notes of any real significance to write about.

I have however decided to put my game on hold until the next patch. I have found that in mud weather I am required to place all my HQs within 2 or 3 hexes of the front lines to keep my units in supply. This will devastate my officer corps due to how many leaders die when their HQs are that close to the front lines. I’ve already lost 5 KIA leaders so far and that was when I had all HQs 4-5 hexes back.

Were I to continue on right now with every single corps and many army HQs practically right on top of the front lines, I bet by the end of winter I’ll have lost a good 10-15 more leaders. So until the next patch comes out, which is apparently going to address the leader loss problem, I’ll postpone my game.

Jim

[karonagames]

I have however decided to put my game on hold until the next patch. I have found that in mud weather I am required to place all my HQs within 2 or 3 hexes of the front lines to keep my units in supply. This will devastate my officer corps due to how many leaders die when their HQs are that close to the front lines. I’ve already lost 5 KIA leaders so far and that was when I had all HQs 4-5 hexes back.

The current test version seems much less lethal - I am only ten turns into an Axis 41 Campaign with no deaths as yet, and I am seeing more realistic promotions and ratings increases.

[Q-Ball]

Jim, good AAR. A couple thoughts from my very limited experience...

You have alot of Infantry Regts deployed. That seems like a bad idea; they'll get creamed in Winter, particularly that sector near Kursk, which looks very very thin. IMO, better to consolidate to Divisions and leave every other hex empty. I think you need to double-up more.

I regret not digging in-depth near the front starting right away, with some strongpoints 2-3 hexes back from the line to fall-back on. And any time you can use an urban hex on the front, do so; it's untakeable, and the units defending it will stay in excellent condition. I managed to reach Stalino, and those 3 urban hexes anchored the whole line down there.

I also regret not keeping the Panzers off the front; you will be forced to commit them at some point, but I would try to limit that. Panzers at the front suffer horrific tank losses, and in Summer you will struggle to get your Panzers up to full-strength in tanks.

Your most important units are MOUNTAIN units, even the Romanian ones. Had I to do it over again, the only units I would split in the winter are the German Mountain Divisions, each Regt. deployed to protect a strongpoint. The ROMANIAN/HUNGARIAN mountain brigades, coupled with one Heer Infantry Division, will also hold almost any point. Splitting the Heer Mountain units gives you a total of (IIRC), 10 Mountain units (incl. the Hungarian one). That's 10 hexes that should hold. All Mountain units should be set to REFIT. I wish the Italians sent the Alipini a few months earlier!!!!

I predict if you don't make major changes in how your units are arranged, you'll have a miserable winter....

[randallw]

From what the long time testers say, you don't run the risk of running out of leaders, even before this lower death rate patch is released.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: randallw

From what the long time testers say, you don't run the risk of running out of leaders, even before this lower death rate patch is released.

Sure, but I want my best leaders in my HQs for the tough winter battles. But doing that may end up killing off a dozen or more since the HQs have to be right up on the line to provide supply to their units during bad weather. Then all I’ll have left are the second line leaders. Sure they’re better than the Russian leaders still, but overall it will hurt my 42 offensives if I lose most of my first team guys.

I averaged about 1 leader killed every three turns in good weather with my HQs mostly at 5 hex ranges with a few at 4 hexes. So I figure that average will probably more than double with most HQs only 2 hexes from the front and a couple at 3.

So I'd prefer to wait for the patch, which I assume isn't too far off given the testers have already made many comments on the changes.

Jim

[Jim D Burns]

Thanks Q-ball, I hadn’t given much thought to the Rumanian mountain brigades. I’ll start working on getting them to the front lines as currently they’re on partisan duties.

The regiment line you mention is already scheduled to be replaced with divisions. I just have to get the infantry from the 6th, 17th and 11th Armies up to the lines fist, so give it a few turns and things will start to look better.

Jim

[randallw]

You think it's tough losing good German leaders, if the Sovs lose Zhukov and Koniev how many top dudes are left? [:'(]

[CharonJr]

Just ran my 4th mud turn here and like you I need a lot of HQs along the complete front (Leningrad-Moscow-Voronezh-Voroshilovgrad-Rostov - I pretty much NEED every single infantry corps at the frontline), but havent had a single KIA so far.

At least with 1.02 beta the KIA problem does not seem that bad.

CharonJr