'Tis light as a feather... No Panzerjaeger Hortlund

[LoBaron]

This is about the most idiotic breach of a gentlemens agreement I can imagine.

Agree with Canorebel, there is a huge difference in underestimating the intel gathering possible by simply reading between
the lines and intentionally leaking information, whether true or false doesn´t matter.

Sorry to hear that Nemo, this is a very interesting AAR. I hope you will change your mind but I understand if
you decide not to.

[cantona2]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If somebody is intentionally violating OpSec, then the public needs to know his name so that we can tar and feather the lout.

If it's not an intentional thing, we don't need to know his name as he's undoubtedly embarrassed enough.

Good players like Nemo and PH will be very good at reading between the lines, so this is a reminder to us that read and post that even inoccuous statements may provide "aid and comfort" to a player. Simple things like "This is going to be very interesting" (it tells a player that something major is up) or "What are your defenses like in SWPac" (which might suggest to a player that he needs to pay closer attention in that area).

I hate for Nemo and PH to discontinue their AARs as they are very intersting. We don't get many duel AARs from players of their caliber, especially this late in the game. So we are all suffering a loss here. I hope they'll reconsider.

Edited: I wanted to edit to correct "duel" to "dual," but then it occurred to me this was an appropriate play on words.

+1 especially if the person in question also has a PBEM going on with AARs involved! It will be a shame to have the postings of AARs affected by something like this

[Rob Brennan UK]

ORIGINAL: cantona2

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If somebody is intentionally violating OpSec, then the public needs to know his name so that we can tar and feather the lout.

If it's not an intentional thing, we don't need to know his name as he's undoubtedly embarrassed enough.

Good players like Nemo and PH will be very good at reading between the lines, so this is a reminder to us that read and post that even inoccuous statements may provide "aid and comfort" to a player. Simple things like "This is going to be very interesting" (it tells a player that something major is up) or "What are your defenses like in SWPac" (which might suggest to a player that he needs to pay closer attention in that area).

I hate for Nemo and PH to discontinue their AARs as they are very intersting. We don't get many duel AARs from players of their caliber, especially this late in the game. So we are all suffering a loss here. I hope they'll reconsider.

Edited: I wanted to edit to correct "duel" to "dual," but then it occurred to me this was an appropriate play on words.

+1 especially if the person in question also has a PBEM going on with AARs involved! It will be a shame to have the postings of AARs affected by something like this

+1 here too , i was thoroughly enjoying your AAR's and i am sorry to see it terminated in such an idiotic and childish manner.

At the very least I'd tell Matrix and get him banned for life even if you don't reveal the identity to the baying masses.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If somebody is intentionally violating OpSec, then the public needs to know his name so that we can tar and feather the lout.

In complete agreement here!!!

I'm surprised someone would do this considering the average age of the members of this game, name some game which the average high school kid plays and I would understand.

Hang in there Nemo and wade though the folk/s that love to piss on a parade because obviously they're not happy with their current state.

[crsutton]

Well, it is an eye opener. It makes me go back and think about my posts in dual AARs and the risk involved with even innocent remarks. I just hope that I was careful enough in the past. Perhaps I will resolve to only comment in one of the two AARs for safety sake in the future. Lots of potential minefields out there.

[JeffroK]

I would suggest that forumees refrain from posting in an AAR if you are reading both. (Reading both is OK if you dont post in either.)

Sometimes I cringe when I see the advice offered, IMHO its innocent, some of it is an attempt to be a smart*&*&, but if the player is smart you can add 1+1 and get a reasonable idea of whats happening.

This isnt the only AAR where this happens.

[Ketza]

Damn I wanted to see what happens. I feel like I got kicked out of a movie.

Sorry to see it happen.

[LoBaron]

Exactly JeffK.

Thats why I am usually not posting or am extremely careful with my posts when reading dual AARs.

You just never know can be totally sure if you only give a useful hint, or the what you post originated from knowledge you
gathered in the other AAR. Very hard to prevent, except if you reduce your comments to the no brainer
content.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Exactly JeffK.

Thats why I am usually not posting or am extremely careful with my posts when reading dual AARs.

You just never know can be totally sure if you only give a useful hint, or the what you post originated from knowledge you
gathered in the other AAR. Very hard to prevent, except if you reduce your comments to the no brainer
content.

My resolution of the situation is this: If I want to comment on an AAR, I self-ban myself from the other. Once I made a comment in PH's AAR, I stopped reading Nemo's. I think the potential for inadvertantly "letting the cat out of the bag" is greater than what many beleive is true. I am so concerned about such things that I impose my own exile to avoid the risk that a casual comment inadvertantly gives one side or the other the exact information they need to make appropriate plans.

[LoBaron]

Well the fun factor is often that you know the story from both sides while the players don´t.
Thats why I like reading both.

And if two good players battle each other, as is the case here, you learn a lot about actions and reactions...

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Well the fun factor is often that you know the story from both sides while the players don´t.
Thats why I like reading both.

And if two good players battle each other, as is the case here, you learn a lot about actions and reactions...

Agreed. There are many paired AAR's where I read both sides. I am just saying if I choose to stop being just a lurker and to participate in the discussion, I remove myself from the other AAR even just as a reader. I am not saying this to insist that this is what everybody should do only to solidify the point that it is something people should think about before they comment in an AAR.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I would suggest that forumees refrain from posting in an AAR if you are reading both. (Reading both is OK if you dont post in either.)

Sometimes I cringe when I see the advice offered, IMHO its innocent, some of it is an attempt to be a smart*&*&, but if the player is smart you can add 1+1 and get a reasonable idea of whats happening.

This isnt the only AAR where this happens.

Agreed,

I resolve to keep my comments to a bare minimum in the future.

[PresterJohn001]

Completely out of order, no excuse for pre meditated attempt to ruin a game. Personally considering the time commitment involved in these games i'd be inclined to start a thread asking for an explanation. If confirmed it is an ultimate betrayal for those who write AAR's for the communities enjoyment.

That said theres a lot of assumption going on, and whilst it looks bad the offender should be given a chance to defend themselves. Its one of the principles of a democratic society.

[ny59giants]

Keeping it pithy....This sucks!![:@]

[Nemo121]

I think it is important to clarify that this breach of FOW was NOT a case of someone asking a leading question or making an unintended slip.

This was a PRIVATE MESSAGE to my opponent stating that I had correctly guessed his invasion sites ( which I presume he must have indicated in his AAR ) and had fortified and reinforced them. It wasn't anything inadvertent. it was a little rat intentionally and knowingly breaching FOW privately ( because he didn't have the courage to do so publicly ) in order to ruin a game - which he succeeded in doing.


JeffK, PresterJohn and others,
As to the offender being given a chance to defend themselves... It is very simple... My opponent has told me what was in the PM. There is no possibility of sending such a PM in error. No defence is possible.

I'm all for being fair but sometimes saying "well there's two points of view" is simply not a correct response. If you lie and cheat and breach FOW in a pre-meditated, game-ruining manner then that's that. How on EARTH could his stating that I knew the invasion sites and had fortified them be some sort of "unintended slip of the tongue".

In any case I've PMed him asking for his reasoning and an apology. So far, unsurprisingly, no response. Of course I would suggest that even "private" AARs he is involved in are likely to be public insofar as he probably looks into his opponents' AARs. Once a cheat, always a cheat.

[SuluSea]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

In any case I've PMed him asking for his reasoning and an apology. So far, unsurprisingly, no response - despite the fact the I know he is on the forum posting to his private and joint AARs. Of course I would suggest that even "private" AARs he is involved in are likely to be public insofar as he probably looks into his opponents' AARs. Once a cheat, always a cheat.

Let's hope he comes forth an apologizes but have to agree with the cheat quote that's bolded. Life experience has taught me if someone has it in 'em to cheat they'll always go back to the well when things get tough, sometimes they'll even try to justify it when the hands caught in the cookie jar. I was hoping there was a simple explanation but looks like it isn't which I'm sorry to hear for you two.[:@][:@]

[Nemo121]

Well, I'll say this for our little rat... He doesn't deny breaching FOW or doing so intentionally. His "defence" is that I was obviously cheating and reading my opponent's AAR and therefore he was justified in breaching FOW.

It seems that he feels that since I was able to predict ( I'm presuming here that my guesses re: PH's intentions must be right. It'd be really hilarious if I'm being accused of cheating because I made predictions which were wrong. At this stage though nothing would surprise me. ) PH's invasion targets ( and I don't even know if I'm right. I predicted he would invade Korea and have fortified every base on that peninsula. If I really knew where he'd be invading I'd only have reinforced the bases he had said he was going to invade.).

Anyways, his contention is that since I guessed right ( according to him... I guess we'll find out in a few days if I really did ) that I must be cheating and therefore he was right to tell PH about this. Talk about a self-sustaining paranoic belief system. Guessing right proves you are cheating which justifies him breaching FOW.

Let us look at the evidence though. There are 6 places PH can invade:
1. Kuriles
2. Hokkaido
3. Central Japan.
4. Kyushu
5. Korea
6 China

China gains him nothing that Okinawa hasn't already granted him. Hokkaido, Central Japan and Kyushu all allow me to mass massive ground forces by land vs his landings - which he must supply and support by sea - ( something PH obviously won't want to do ). Korea is therefore a very logical landing zone. So far so logical ( and all without reading an AAR post ). Add in the growing number of Allied CV raids into the Yellow Sea and the concentrated surface combat TF raids into the Korean ports over the past 2 weeks and you have a situation where Korea is a good, logical, place for him to land which is close to my HI centres ( which he wants ) BUT doesn't let me move huge numbers of troops overland to swamp him ( which he wants to avoid). The only way I can reinforce it quickly is by ship and there's been a recent concentrated campaign to prevent that.

Who the hell needs to read an AAR to figure out that Korea is the likely Allied target? Hell, I'm STILL not sure it is. I have about 3,500 HI in Kyushu just in case because I'm still very worried about an invasion there by PH if he is just using Korea as a distraction.


Anyways all of the above avoids the whole situation that he went to PH privately, skulking and hiding what he had to say from everyone's view whilst breaching FOW...

It seems to me that in him paranoia is alive and well and in his mind good play is proof of cheating. What a twisted world view.


I presume that, in his mind, the mistakes I've made in this game which have cost me islands and planes and HI are "intentional" mistakes to cover up the fact that I knew exactly what PH was up to. LOL! Gotta love conspiracy theorists, everything can be twisted to somehow support their viewpoint.


And for those interested in a little more reading:
Paranoid pesonality disorder is most common in males, occurs in 0.5% to 2% of the population ( just take it as 1% prevalence to keep things simple ) and features individuals who habitually scan the world around them for clues to imagined threats and to support their prejudiced and biased ideas. They are prone to draw conclusions supported only by circumstancial "evidence" and can become enraged when challenged. In the absence of information they can manufacture data to support their prejudicial beliefs. They are eager observers. They tend to be guarded and suspicious and have quite limited emotional and relational lives. They also view the world through the prism of their personality. Since they expect deceit and mistrust they see deceit everywhere and often have difficulty understanding how others can trust eachother.
There is some overlap with schizoid personality types.

[Capt. Harlock]

And for those interested in a little more reading:
Paranoid pesonality disorder is most common in males, occurs in 0.5% to 2% of the population ( just take it as 1% prevalence to keep things simple ) and features individuals who habitually scan the world around them for clues to imagined threats and to support their prejudiced and biased ideas. They are prone to draw conclusions supported only by circumstancial "evidence" and can become enraged when challenged. In the absence of information they can manufacture data to support their prejudicial beliefs. They are eager observers. They tend to be guarded and suspicious and have quite limited emotional and relational lives. They also view the world through the prism of their personality. Since they expect deceit and mistrust they see deceit everywhere and often have difficulty understanding how others can trust eachother.
There is some overlap with schizoid personality types

This is very interesting, since I have a family member who displays many of these symptoms. (Exact diagnosis, which professional therapists have attempted, is very difficult due to complicating factors.) If I may be bold enough to comment, the classic understanding of paranoia is the conviction that people "are out to get me". From your description, the threat need not be against the paranoid person himself, but could be a belief in a UN/Zionist/Masonic/Whatever conspiracy to dominate the person's environment.

Getting back to Operational Security, have you thought of posting battle results with your comments, but without mentioning any future plans? I think we readers would find it useful, since PH has gallantly agreed to continue his AAR.

[Nemo121]

Well, I asked him for his proof and here it is....

|Remember when I said that paranoid personalities would see coincidences etc as proof....

Here's his reply and my response.... BTW I'm doing this openly since I don't want to get into a situation where he can edit any PMs I send and twist them. Also I believe that I'm perfectly happy having my responses viewed by all and sundry.

My PM when he said I was reading PH's AAR can best be paraphrased as ... "Where's your proof?" It was two lines long but I don't save sent PMs so I can't cut and past it here.

Here's the "proof" in the reply....

Why are you assuming I'm going to bother arguing with someone I consider dishonest? On the off-chance that it will prevent stink in the open and shutdown of the game PH wishes to continue for some reason...

RE: ...the destroyer of worlds. - An Armageddon AAR (no... - 12/2/2010 6:15:17 PM (PH heavily hints at changing Allied strategic plans)

When Birdies tweet in one's ear.... - 12/2/2010 8:21:14 PM (you change the format of your AAR to hide your reaction)

Screenshots saved.

Gotta love the contention in the second line that he isn't going public in order to "save" the game as PH wants to continue. Wow!!! After what he did? WOW!!!

So his "proof" that I was cheating was my post publicly announcing that I had concerns about FOW breaches after someone contacted me with concerns that some posts in PH's AAR might give a bit too much away. I publicly posted this information, announced a change in my AAR style to prevent this being an issue in future and asked people to refrain from further leading questions.

The AAR then continued on for another 6 weeks without incident until a few days after I changed this policy and again posted info about future plans ( the whole Korean reinforcement thing ) on 17th January. Very shortly after that this person posted my reinforcement plan to PH.

Gees, guys can someone tell me when the first time PH confirmed his current invasion targets in his AAR? DON'T confirm whether or not it is Korea. Right now I think it must either be Korea or Kyushu. The leaks make me think Korea but I am still concerned about Kyushu.


What I am interested in though is the timeline....

1. PH posted a change in plans ( I'm going on "Little Rat's" timing here... Is he telling the truth about this or is this made up?

2. I was told that someone had concerns about goings on in PH's AAR and in my very next post publicly asked people to be careful and said I would not give future plans away.

3. 6 weeks later I felt safe enough with the AAR again that I posted my future plans ( prepping to defend Korea with units evacuated from China by sea and air ).

4. Several days later the "Little Rat" leaked this info to PH.

That is how I see the timeline playing out but, obviously, I only know points 2, 3 and 4. I can only take "Little Rats" word for point 1 and, obviously, I don't consider him to be a very trustworthy source.



Anyways, it seems that the fact that I heard about concerns someone had about posts with excess info/food for thought causing PH to change plans and posted asking for that to stop was enough to convince this person that I must be cheating. I would be willing to bet he was the one making the excess info posts to PH. Gees.



Well, after hearing back from him I truly am :
a) reminded of one of my favourite psychiatric sayings, "We are all at the mercy of the least balanced person we know."

and

b) determined not to let him destroy this game.



I've sat here for about ten minutes thinking about this next part of the message. I'm annoyed that he would destroy the game on such flimsy evidence. I'm annoyed he would breach FOW without ever even contacting me for an explanation ( which is simple, someone contacted me with concerns and I posted that their message made me concerned about FOW breaches. Simple. ). I was VERY upset with him about this for several days and haven't read another AAR for days because I was so upset about the whole thing. It just removed the fun.

But, as I sit here I am reminded of my own patients who often make terrible mistakes in their choices and who often interpret the world around them very incorrectly and burn bridges and cause harm. I think he has no choice but to see the world as his personality colours it. I think that it is regrettable that, in this instance, this prism of paranoia has pretty much ruined this game and definitely ruined this AAR. When society looks at my patients and refuses to give them a second chance I find it regrettable because I know that when the layer of illness is removed most of them are quite decent people. I have been thinking about how I sometimes would feel others are being unfair to my patients and I've been thinking if launching into a diatribe about this individual wouldn't be doing unto him just what I bemoan others doing to my patients.

I also believe we need to give people a second chance. Normally that requires an apology but sometimes when people can't reach a place to understand the error of their views I believe we need to simply move on, make allowances and try to remember that they are as much victims as we are.


So, at one point in this post I named him because I was upset. I've removed his name now. Instead I'll just say ( as I know he will read this ) that I forgive him and understand that he acted from a true conviction that I was cheating. Obviously after many years of AARing here I think that an allegation of cheating should require more than the timing of two posts in two different AARs but I understand that to his mind such things are utter proof of conspiracy etc.


Anyways, I wish you well, I hope you can reflect on your actions and the strength of the proof you saw and whether or not your actions were fully justified. I won't PM you again to discuss this. I believe you can best reflect on this yourself.


As to the AAR...
I don't believe a private AAR serves any purpose anymore. I'm going to start a public AAR which PH is free to join and in which all are welcome to comment. Hopefully by having an open, joint AAR PH and I can recapture some of the fun of the game and everyone can feel free to comment without worrying about FOW.

As to the individual who made those PMs to PH. You are welcome to participate also. I would just ask that you no longer PM my opponent with information contained within this thread but you are free to participate in a new open joint AAR

[Nemo121]

Paranoid personality disorder is a disorder in which people see connections where there are none, plans where there are none etc.

Humans are supreme pattern-recognisers. We had to be in order to survive back when we were hunters and gatherers. Hell, even when we farm pattern-recognition makes sense... Back in Roman times they used to sacrifice a sheep and examine its liver in order to determine whether or not it was good ground to build on. Utter balderdash you might think. But nowadays we realise that sheep living on damp ground are likely to catch a specific parasite which damages their liver and turns it "spotty". The Romans recognised this and knew that if you killed a sheep which had grazed for some time on the land and its liver was spotty then this was ground which flooded frequently. How did they know that? Someone spotted the pattern.

Anyways, in people with PPD the pattern-recognition goes into overdrive and just recognised patterns which aren't there and links things when a reasonable person wouldn't see any such link. They take 99% coincidences and link them as though they are things linked by utter cause and effect.

You are correct that these patterns don't have to relate to them. They can relate to the Illuminati/Skulls and Bones/CIA/FBI/MI6/Knights Templars groups with whom they never have any contact but whom they believe are linked and working behind the scenes. Interestingly enough PPD is cquite useful in some jobs. Good detectives are likely to have a bit of PPD in the same way as anankastic personality disorder ( a love of rules and the belief they should never be bent or allowances made ) is over-expressed in various fields of law enforcement ( particularly parking offences officers --- this was in some UK research in the 80s and provided a scientific basis for why those SOBs wouldn't let people off parking fines ).

Anyways, you are right that PPD people often see connections between things which have nothing to do with them or never threaten them. Sometimes that just stays at that level. Sometimes it might develop into a paranoid schizophrenia or a delusional disorder.


I want to be clear I can't diagnose this person at such a remove but even on the internet our personalities and the way we view the world do come through. There is some fascinating research out there on how "forum personalities" mirror real-wolrd personalities and how forum members adopt social group roles. Anyways PPD is what I thought of and it certainly seems, to me, to fit what I've seen. It also makes me realise getting angry and fighting with him is pointless. Instead it is, I believe, better to try to understand, accept and move on.