Hammer and sickle

[Skanvak]

Symbol of imperial Japan navy does not relate to an ideology so it is not offensive. Any way the swastika is not forbidden for being offensive but for being a political symbol of a forbidden political faction in Germany.

The only reason one is used and the other not is purely relate to who won the war and political strength. And I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi. So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.). Of course my knowledge of the history protect me from such but it does worry me.

[KenchiSulla]

Interesting point of view. I am not german so I am not sure how it is handled there. I wonder how history is presented in German classrooms?

It was a mandatory subject during my school carreer. For example, I remember when I was about 14 years old and we watched Schindler's list.

Fact is that history somehow is destined to repeat itself.. Mostly because people just dont know...or care. And that worries me as well.

[Muzrub]

Why is the Swastika not in the game in 2011- in the 1970's that particular question may have had some legs- but now, things have simply changed (for the better or not).

On the other hand the question is irrelevant considering the Mod communities that surround every game that is or ever has been released-

 Hort Wessel may well have asked is concentration camp labour modelled in the game?

Because that question is as pointless and personally not relevant to any game no matter how historical it claims to be!

Games at their core are supposed to be fun, not political footballs.
And after looking at this thread I think Horst Wessel has had his laugh stirring the pot...

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

(That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)

Or then again, maybe he was, for all practical purposes. I mean, he was totally cool with the conquering stuff, plainly, happily took his bribes in money and land from Hitler, and was willing enough to serve him on the front, as an inspector general, and as his chief of staff.

There are good examples of genuinely non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.

[Skanvak]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

(That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)

Or then again, maybe he was, for all practical purposes. I mean, he was totally cool with the conquering stuff, plainly, happily took his bribes in money and land from Hitler, and was willing enough to serve him on the front, as an inspector general, and as his chief of staff.

There are good examples of genuinely non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.

ly non nazi generals. (Leaving aside the obvious anti Hitler conspirators, you've also got fellows like, say, Heinrici.) Guderian isn't one of 'em. He was Hitler's man until the 11th hour.

Yes, and all the conspirator were in favor of the previous move made by Hitler or were outright nazi (Rommel). So I guess both points stand fast. As for Guderain he could have been Hitler's man while not sharing the nazi ideal because precisely, there was non-nazi related legitimate reasons to go to war for Germany.

[Flaviusx]

Many of the conspirators were in fact not in favor of Hitler's previous moves. Some of them had fallen out with the regime long before the war, such as Beck.

The most generous interpretation of Guderian I can come up with is that he was a technical enthusiast who allowed himself to be seduced by Hitler. But it was a seduction, not a rape. It is no accident this is the man Hitler turned to after the 1944 assassination attempt to become chief of staff; and Guderian agreed to institute the Nazi salute, sit on the kangaroo courts that prosecuted conspirators, allowed nazi leadership officers into the army, etc.

Only at the very end when the war was well and truly lost did he fall out with Hitler. We can admire Guderian's skill but it shouldn't blind us to the way he prostituted himself and his talent to the Nazis and became one of the regime's most favored generals.

[micha1100]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
... I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi. So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.)...

I'm a German, and the laws against nazi symbols are most certainly not meant to try to hide facism. On the contrary, it's part of a fight against the possibility of any nazi-resurgence. There is a lot of awareness of Germany's guilt, actually probably even too much. It's often tedious for us born decades after the war to be told time and again how Germany and Germans are supposed to behave and what responsibilities we have because of the past. For example Germans are free to lie about every historical fact - with one exception: if you deny that Hitler-Germany killed Jews this counts as a crime.

As to Guderian - it was nothing special for Guderian to agree with Germany annexing Austria, the Sudetes and part of Poland. Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871. And the other provinces had been German or Austrian until 1918 when they were "stolen" after WWI.
And it's also nothing special for a soldier to make a decision to help his country in a war even if he does not agree with the current government.

[Fänrik Stål]

Why are the symbols needed at all? The political aspects play no part in the game so why do we need them on the map?

[Fänrik Stål]

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

And I hate this german law that try to hide they were nazi.

This one of the most absurd things I've read so far on this forum.

Svastika ban is law in Germany because Allied Control Council for Germany in 1945 banned NSDAP and its symbols. In the Nuremberg trials NSDAP was declared a criminal organization. Federal German Republic took over Allied laws to the Liberation of the German People from Nationalsocialism and militarism" in article 139 of the Constitition. Based on this there are laws for punishing peace treason, high treason and harming democratic constitutional state ("Rechtsstaat"), (§§ 80–92b). § 86a deals with "the use of symbols of unconstitutional organizations", punishing this with a three year imprisonment or a fine. Explicitly excluded are cases of civic education, of defending against unconstitutional acts, of art, science, research, teaching, news coverage about current affairs or history or the like.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakenkreuz ... _seit_1945
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

In Germany after a long phase of denying, 1960s leftist student revolt unveiling the "fathers vices", since some thirty years now "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" plays no minor part in public discourse. Disputes happen all the time, most recently frex about the role of German Foreign Ministry in the "Third Reich".

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
So yes, I believe that people will slowly began to forget that Germany was nazi during WWII and that they only fought a war for just cause from german point of view (That is what Guderian believe, he consider that it was normal for germany to annex Austria, sudete and poland and defend the fatherland against the rusian hordes. He was not a nazi.). Of course my knowledge of the history protect me from such but it does worry me.

Guderian was a Technocrat who served the regime in an important position. Like other high commanders he was bribed with an estate in Western Poland. He was no member of the NSDAP. But given his position he sympathized with the aims of the Nazis.

Frankly I don't see any danger that Germany's responsibility for the WW2 and for the Shoa will be forgotten.

[sillyflower]

Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.
[/quote]

?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.

[/quote]

The song is about HW written after he was killed. I don't know who wrote it but don't think it was him

[micha1100]

ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.

Yes, inner-German. As I said, Austria (German-Austria) always was a German state. For a long time it was expected or at least hoped that a unified Germany would include German-Austria. However, the growing Austrian possessions on the Balkan increasingly focussed Austrian attentions eastwards. Had they wanted (and, as it turned out, accepted Prussian leadership), German-Austria could have become part of the German Reich. As it is, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke apart at the end of WWI, the remaining Austria intended to join Germany (iirc it was even in the original constitution after the monarchy was abolished in 1918), but then the peace treaties of 1919 forbade that.
It's a fact that the difference in language and culture between Northern Germans (like Prussians) and Southern Germans (like Bavarians) ist greater than the difference between Southern Germans and Austrians.

[micha1100]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

Don't forget Horst Wessel was a communist irl who died is street battles against fascism. Goebbels just took over the song about him and turned his story on its head.
Our thread starter may just be a red under the bed but I am in no position to take a poke at those who choose silly names.

?. He wrote the lyrics, and he was not a communist.

The song is about HW written after he was killed. I don't know who wrote it but don't think it was him

Sillyflower, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Cannonfodder is right, Horst Wessel was an SA-member and wrote the lyrics to this song. It was named after him when he was killed by communists.

[Aurelian]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... essel.html

Regardless of thw OP's name. Regardless of feelings about German law. (Or Austrian law for that matter. look up David Irving,) He didn't ask a stupid question.

What he got was a stupid answer.

All that had to be said was that the symbol is illegal in many countries. And maybe a link or two that explained why.

As an aside, wasn't there a display of Nazi reglia in Berlin that did rather well.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

As an aside, wasn't there a display of Nazi reglia in Berlin that did rather well.

If you mean the Hitler exhibition in the German Historical Museum, that's right. Showing Nazi symbols with an educational purpose is not forbidden in Germany.

Regards

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: wosung

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

As an aside, wasn't there a display of Nazi reglia in Berlin that did rather well.

If you mean the Hitler exhibition in the German Historical Museum, that's right. Showing Nazi symbols with an educational purpose is not forbidden in Germany.

Regards

That/s the one

[cookie monster]

Ive had a look at Nazi memorabilla some of it is very nice, you can even buy some of it.

[mephistofileez]

Regardless of the OP's intent, disrespect should never be tolerated on these forums. It's inappropriate, and I hope the forum moderators move to end it.

[Fänrik Stål]

ORIGINAL: micha1100

ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål

ORIGINAL: micha1100


Austria has always been a German state, only inner-German conflicts prevented its inclusion into the new German Reich built by Bismarck in 1871.

Inner-German? In 1871 Austria-Hungary was an empire spanning huge areas of non-german lands. It would have had major international consequences.

Yes, inner-German. As I said, Austria (German-Austria) always was a German state. For a long time it was expected or at least hoped that a unified Germany would include German-Austria. However, the growing Austrian possessions on the Balkan increasingly focussed Austrian attentions eastwards. Had they wanted (and, as it turned out, accepted Prussian leadership), German-Austria could have become part of the German Reich. As it is, when the Austro-Hungarian Empire broke apart at the end of WWI, the remaining Austria intended to join Germany (iirc it was even in the original constitution after the monarchy was abolished in 1918), but then the peace treaties of 1919 forbade that.
It's a fact that the difference in language and culture between Northern Germans (like Prussians) and Southern Germans (like Bavarians) ist greater than the difference between Southern Germans and Austrians.

All this does is show that it wasn't inner-German conflicts that prevented German Austria from becoming part of the Reich in 1871, but rather the reality that was Austria-Hungary. There was IMO no way it could realistically be either broken up or included wholesale in the Reich at that time. 1918 is a completely different kettle of fish.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion about Guderian, just this specific argument.

[PaulWRoberts]

Given the number of new users attracted to WITE, it might be a good idea for Matrix to sticky an official statement about this issue. That way, when it comes up again, a simple link will explain the matter without heating everyone up.