First Blizzard

[Ron]

No not really, there's little you can do against even an adequate Russian human in that prepared positions are moot and almost all blizzard attacks will succeed. I think that was the biggest shock the first time as I had elaborate forts all crumble. There were no pockets that held at all and I presume due to the TOE bug the German Army simply couldn't recover its strength come spring. Game abandoned. I am currently on Turn 11 with the latest patch so we shall see. I believe there are a few AARs highlighting Blizzard mania, but not sure any changes to the Blizzard itself will come into effect until 1.04.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Ron

No not really, there's little you can do against even an adequate Russian human in that prepared positions are moot and almost all blizzard attacks will succeed.

Again, I can only say that I believe that depends on what you did to the Soviets prior to the blizzard.

From your reply it appears you are basing your argument more on belief than experience.

[Ron]

ORIGINAL: Lava

Again, I can only say that I believe that depends on what you did to the Soviets prior to the blizzard.

From your reply it appears you are basing your argument more on belief than experience.

Try reading the rest before replying?

[*Lava*]

Okay...

2ndACR, would you like to post your best PBEM turn 25 result and a screen of the strategic situation?

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

I'm with lava...

In three poem games now, all as axis. Started same rough time against three different opponents. All three are at turn prior to mud(ish). All three I've dealt 2.5 - 3.5 million casualties. One im struggling across the dnepr, but all three I've taken Leningrad.

Point is, my strength is +\- 3.6 German 1.5 minor allies. Ive got good fall back positions, low fatigue and preplanned wintering locations. While I doubt all will go according to plan, I seriously doubt my army will be wrecked by february. Playing the ai many times on all difficulties really didn't produce that result either, similar to lavas experience.

Honestly, I tire of the complaints. No one even tries to play past february..... Until you play the game the full 200 or so turns, no one can really honestly or righteously complain.... When someone does that more than a few times for statistical variance and the result is constant soviet decisive victories, then you are allowed to START to whine a bit...... It's unacceptable until that point.....

McMann

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

2ndac. I'm sure you've played those few games to winter well. But again, until many games have gone to completion, it is not a fair shake to complain about the aspect you and others struggle with. When those dates read "May 45", with a crushing Russian victory, numerous times, then the winter complaint might be bandied around....

Saying on here "trust me......full collapse....your toast" sounds rather arrogant and just doesn't help. Maybe someone else will be able weather the winter and then the calls of "the sky is falling!" will seem embarrassingly unsophisticated....

Just letting you know, that the constant refrain of "WINTER! WAHHHHHHHHH!". Without something constructive is tiresome. Of course, no offense intended...

McMann

So, you admit in the first post you have had no experience as a German going through the blizzard in your three games, yet you are "prepared" for winter. Then in the next post, you rip 2ndACR who has not only had first hand experience with blizzard, but has done AAR's on them. If you think that none of those guys could "prepare" as well as you can then I really wonder who the arrogant person is?

I would suggest you check out a lot of those AAR's, especially Q-Ball's first AAR if you have not. There is plenty of evidence there that something is not right.

Perhaps you should try out the Russian side even against the German AI. I played such a game with the Germans on 110%. When winter hit, I opened an offensive up. I basically stopped playing in mid January after I had destroyed over 100 Axis units and saw a kill ratio of 1 Russian to 4 Axis. I could project that by the end of winter, Axis losses would exceed Russian losses.

I would further suggest you get through blizzard with your games and then see how things are and it would be helpful to post "before" and "after" info because the staff is collecting information and the more they get the better.

No offense of course..

[Commanderski]

I haven't played through a full Blizzard season so I don't have any experience to comment, but I have a suggestion for Lava to do some additional testing. Go back to your saves and switch sides. Start from the first Blizzard turn as the Soviets and see how your defenses hold up and if they hold up.

I think that would be interesting if some others also tested it that way.

[Aurelian]

Comparing how one fares against an AI on normal to a player who has gone through several blizzards......4

The attachment is of turn six against a normal German AI.

Looks timid to me.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

2ndac. I'm sure you've played those few games to winter well. But again, until many games have gone to completion, it is not a fair shake to complain about the aspect you and others struggle with. When those dates read "May 45", with a crushing Russian victory, numerous times, then the winter complaint might be bandied around....

Saying on here "trust me......full collapse....your toast" sounds rather arrogant and just doesn't help. Maybe someone else will be able weather the winter and then the calls of "the sky is falling!" will seem embarrassingly unsophisticated....

Just letting you know, that the constant refrain of "WINTER! WAHHHHHHHHH!". Without something constructive is tiresome. Of course, no offense intended...

McMann

2nd ACR and others have offered a number of suggestions and ideas, actually.

The tester's objective is to build a model where the Wehrmacht is able to mount a reasonably effective offensive in 1942, after the winter. So far, this has not happened in any AAR. It is true that there might be a factor in 1944 that is skewed in favor of the Axis, but we have to get there to see it.

I stand by my statement that I have yet to see an AAR with a documented Winter Defense, followed by a reasonable offensive.

So please document how you do in those Winter games, including screenshots and casualty counts, in a PBEM. We need this to understand what needs to be tweaked: Model, or quality of play. I did this, including details of my winter preparations, in an AAR in which I had my butt handed to me in Winter, after also taking Leningrad and generally exceeding historical progress.

Until you do that, your statements frankly are not a valid contribution to the game. No offense of course.

(P.S: AI experience doesn't count. I had no trouble with an AI Winter my first game. In fact, I think the current mechanics are just fine, and shouldn't be changed against the AI. The AI needs the extra help.)

[mikemcmann]

hehe.... I love sarcasm and witty ripostes!

I actually MEANT "no offense"..... unlike the others...heh...

Anyhow...

My point, which I apparently am having trouble getting across, is that no one seems to even TRY to finish the game. This masterpiece has a set of Victory Points for a reason. Until there are NUMEROUS reports of end game scenarios with Russian Decisive victories and nothing else, then all the cries of "Blah, this winter is broken", or, "Russians are too tough!" are really meaningless.

I see two overriding themes that people are stuck on:

1) Germans have to have offensive combat effectiveness in 42...... WHY? Once the game starts and players start moving units, ALL historical precedence is gone. People dont cry foul that the Germans CAN take Moscow....they didnt, so why not complain about that? Point here is that having 42 combat power is not necessarily a guarantee. A bad Russian player...maybe. A Great German one...maybe.

2) Attrition too high/Winter too strong!.............. Dont know about anyone else, but sitting in the middle of a horrible "winter" without proper gear, AND being attacked (trying to defend/attack) would be reason enough for units to fall apart. As a tank commander myself, I felt blessed beyond measure to at least have a shell to get in out of the elements when we were int he field in cold weather. THAT and we had a heater AND gortex cold weather gear....AND we were still cold! I cannot imagine trying combat operations at all.... especially when your crap keeps breaking.... If anything, unit effectiveness might be OVER stated..... I will throw in that it should likely affect the Russians a bit more too...but they clearly were better prepared than the Germans, so maybe not.

I really dont have the time, nor inclination to do an AAR, but after the blizzard in all my games I will indeed post casualty reports and OOB report.

And regardless if I get clobbered, or survive the winter, it means little other than one of those two things happened. The only final score comes in May, three years later....

Just saying....

oh, and....no offense....

Cheers!

McMann

[EntropyAvatar]

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann
The only final score comes in May, three years later....

Take a look at this AAR. That's still with a month of blizzard left to go. Somehow I don't think it would take 3 years to wrap this one up

[Q-Ball]

You shouldn't have to repeat history, but the game should be based on what's historically possible. Right now, the First Winter is NOT, IMO.

I think the ATTRITION, actually, is fine. The Germans should suffer alot of losses, and have big problems. No argument here.

What is skewed is the Russian player's ability to attack continuously across the entire front for 3 months. This is unrealistic. Historically, the Russians were successful in December against a dangerously overextended Army Group Center in Moscow, but when they expanded in January to more prepared positions against the whole front, the attack quickly stalled. The Red Army just didn't have the artillery, logistics, and C and C to pull-off a front-wide offensive, and wouldn't for another 20 months.

Your opponent will have no supply problems at all, and will be able to grind you down. The first couple turns will be OK, but once your units suffer some attrition losses and get kicked out of the first couple rows of forts, a retreat will turn into a rout.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I stand by my statement that I have yet to see an AAR with a documented Winter Defense, followed by a reasonable offensive.

So please document how you do in those Winter games, including screenshots and casualty counts, in a PBEM. We need this to understand what needs to be tweaked: Model, or quality of play. I did this, including details of my winter preparations, in an AAR in which I had my butt handed to me in Winter, after also taking Leningrad and generally exceeding historical progress.

I totally agree.

We need to see more styles of defense, after a good start.

Personally, I wouldn't use a defense in depth for the Germans because, unlike the Russians, who have tons of space and manpower, the Germans just can't afford to take large losses. Every time you retreat, you leave the battlefield strewn with equipment and wounded. So it is a triple whammy, losing men, material and land.

My personal opinion is that along lines of communication the German player needs to stack up and put up a fight, though not to the death. You need to hold crucial LOCs and force the Russians to fight for them because without them supply will not flow.

Now, where I agree that fighting the AI is not nearly as difficult as a human, I do believe that as you crank up the difficulty level, you get closer and closer to understanding the true nuances of the game which will eventually give you an edge over a capable human adversary. Until I am happy that I understand thoroughly every little cranny of this game, I will not even consider PBEM.

I will crank up the difficulty level, start again and report back.