Upcoming books of interest

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

There are 2 new books being released next weekend. One is the second volume of Barbarossa Derailed: The Battle for Smolensk by David Glantz. The first one was very good, lots of good information and was like reading a detailed AAR on this game.

The second one is . Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative by Valeriy Zamulin and Stuart Britton. It's the English version of the book that was printed in 2005. Valeriy Zamulin is a former Deputy Director and Director of Research at the Prokhorovka Battlefield Park Museum and had access to documents not readily available to the public. Should be some good information in that one

Always good to see books by Russian authors in english.

[castlebravo]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Marquo

In fact there are ways to attack with this Soviet ants...three stacks of three 2's is 18 points...

[X(] [X(] [X(]

Where have you seen so many 2CV Sov units??

If you have a surplus of 2CV Sovs, let alone 9 of them concentrated in so compact area, please sell some to me. When I see 2CV Sov unit before Oct 41 it's like I've seen Chuck Norris in person. I cherish the very sight of that holy number "2" on a counter... [&o]

Besides, if you have so many 2CVs, then obviously German is not doing his job right. Good German will take care that no Sov 2CV unit survives it's first week on the frontline [;)]

Oh please, oh please stack 9 of your best units like that so I can encircle them and destroy them . I'll gladly take a retreat one hex outcome to destroy 9 units.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: castlebravo

Oh please, oh please stack 9 of your best units like that so I can encircle them and destroy them . I'll gladly take a retreat one hex outcome to destroy 9 units.

True dat

[runyan99]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

You mean Kursk[:)] Not Kharkov.

Yes.

[squatter]

Marquo, you misunderstand me.
 
I think counterattacking as Soviets in 41 is perfectly possible - with infantry and cavalry.
 
What I am moaning about is that the armour is not a viable counterattacking asset for the Russians at this point due to low MPs which deny them the chance to use deliberate attacks, not the fact that they dont have enough CV (which they do.)

[randallw]

I think that page from the book has a typo, stating the year 1941 when it should be 1943.
 
It also shows the common tendency of books to use a smallish capital letter 'I' in place of the number '1'.  They aren't the same thing! [:D]

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: runyan99

With regard to Kharkov as The Greatest Tank Battle in History, and a blundering German defeat, another recent work also overturns the 'myth'. John Mosier's 'Deathride' also argues that Kharkov was a battle the Germans were more or less winning when Hitler pulled the plug and decided to send the elite German units to the Western Front. Further he argues that the Russians were taking the bulk of the casualties as always, despite the Germans attacking into the prepared defensive belts. Interesting perspective.

Manstein had an armoured thrust to nowhere. With Model's forces completely stymied in the north, he was basically going to have to drive right across the salient himself. Given the paucity of forces at his disposal to protect flanks that long, whatever was happening in front of II SS Panzercorp was largely beside the point. Tactically, they may have been having the best of it, operationally, the operation was over when Model's assault ground to a halt.

Regards,
ID

Lets not get onto the subject of Mosier. I gave up on him after his book on WWI. His degree is in English if memory serves.

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: Belphegor

ORIGINAL: runyan99

Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.

perhaps this one:

this book refers to a work by KH Frieser as yet untranslated

Is this from the volume in the Germany and the second world war series that he largely authored covering 1942-44 in the east? I've been waiting for his volume to be translated but no one seems to know when it is due.

Is this a quote from Zamulin?

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: squatter

Marquo, you misunderstand me.

I think counterattacking as Soviets in 41 is perfectly possible - with infantry and cavalry.

What I am moaning about is that the armour is not a viable counterattacking asset for the Russians at this point due to low MPs which deny them the chance to use deliberate attacks, not the fact that they dont have enough CV (which they do.)

The Russians tried to mass their armour against AGS at Dubno in July 41. Severak Tank Corps were slated to join the assault. It was a fiasco. If the game allowed Soviet Armour to hit and decimate German spearheads, it would be broke...

regards,
ID

[Belphegor]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: Belphegor

ORIGINAL: runyan99

Interesting, I wonder exactly what myth Mr. Zamulin is referring to.

perhaps this one:

this book refers to a work by KH Frieser as yet untranslated

Is this from the volume in the Germany and the second world war series that he largely authored covering 1942-44 in the east? I've been waiting for his volume to be translated but no one seems to know when it is due.

Is this a quote from Zamulin?

Yes, if the work you're referring to is the one below. I got it from Richard Evans' work quoting Karl Heinz Frieser's work


Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, 10 Bde., Bd.8, Die Ostfront - Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten
http://www.amazon.de/Deutsche-Reich-Zwe ... 030&sr=8-2


Can't wait to read this in English.

[IronDuke_slith]

I think the others are all translated, so I assume some issue is holding things up. I did e-mail the publishers but got no response.

I agree it'll be a tremendous read when available. I have seen an article by him on 1943 based on his research for this. I thought his book on 1940 was excellent.

regards,
ID

[Belphegor]

Do you have a reference for the article? please and thanks

[color]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Where have you seen so many 2CV Sov units??

If you have a surplus of 2CV Sovs, let alone 9 of them concentrated in so compact area, please sell some to me. When I see 2CV Sov unit before Oct 41 it's like I've seen Chuck Norris in person. I cherish the very sight of that holy number "2" on a counter... [&o]

Besides, if you have so many 2CVs, then obviously German is not doing his job right. Good German will take care that no Sov 2CV unit survives it's first week on the frontline [;)]

I've got loads of 2 CV russian infantry and several 3 CV units as well in my game.

Yes it is a game against the AI, but I don't think that being against a Human changes that a lot, as the 2 & 3 CV ones are the freshly build infantry divisions coming from the rear, created in 2-3 turns in refit mode from scratch.
Of course, after some heavy combat they do look different.

As some people have point out, you do have a tendency to overstate things abit in your efforts to push your points through.
And that's meant as a constructive comment, my friend, not a personal attack [:)]

[Berkut]

Historically the vast majority of Soviet mech and armored counter-attacks were utter failures at achieving the goals set out for them in the summer and fall of 1941.

If there is a problem with how the '41 campaign plays out, it is that no Soviet player is going to be dumb enough to order those counter-attacks that Stavka kept ordering, and kept not understanding why they didn't work...

[Rugens]

I second your comment. Beyond this problem the game system compounds the issue by making it fairly easy for the Soviets to attack with infantry and to achieve retreat results on German stacks. By September the flow of the game sadly takes a sharp turn away from history.

If there is a problem with how the '41 campaign plays out, it is that no Soviet player is going to be dumb enough to order those counter-attacks that Stavka kept ordering, and kept not understanding why they didn't work...

[Zebedee]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Does Glantz ever sleep? I mean two volumes, with third and possibly fourth planned in the future, about ONE battle, that most historians don't even consider all that important.

Anyhow, regarding Smolensk, it's pretty hard to replicate that battle in WITE due to - ta-dammm - here I go again, so I apologize for being annoying... due to supermen, ie problem we currently have with two waves of supermen, in this case German summer supermen.

Take for example this excerpt from Glantz's Smolensk book dust cover:

"Instead, Soviet forces encircled in Mogilev and Smolensk stubbornly refused to surrender".... what, they evaporate in one turn in WITE? [:D]... "and while they fought on, during July, August, and into early September, first five and then a total of seven newly-mobilized Soviet armies struck back viciously at the advancing Germans, conducting multiple counterattacks and counterstrokes, capped by two major counteroffensives that sapped German strength and will."

Five or seven armies in the massive (counter)attacks! "Major counteroffensives"!

I already wrote many times, being annoying to some, that due to "supermen syndrome" any sensible coherent multi unit counterattacks are nigh on impossible for the untermencsh side (Sovs in summer or Germans in blizzard). The best a lucky player can hope for is 6 CV Kiev MD tank division catching unlucky Rumanians in the open and making them retreat one hex. There are simply no rational provisions for, say, coherent, 2 army Soviet counterattack to "sap German strength and will", as described in Glantz's book.

Anyone else sharing my opinion? We discussed Soviet winter supermen ad nauseam, and I agree winter mechanics need to be tweaked, now does anyone think summer mechanics should also allow for more Sov army sized counterattacks? As it is both summer and winter of 41 are too one sided for my taste.

Discuss...

Have just finished a review of volume 2. Volume 3 is primary documents reproduced in full. Volume 4 will be colour maps.

I'd certainly recommend reading this series before trying to jump conclusions based on blurbs (not written by Glantz by the way) and then trying to relate them to the game. The primary impact of the poorly co-ordinated Soviet counteroffensives was attrition to the German mobile units. This is easily reproduced in game as competent Soviet players attest and have demonstrated. Of course, if one reproduces it in game, the Soviet player will then face the perfectly historical consequence of risking the loss of all the forces committed in an encirclement battle.

[Montbrun]

Another book I'll be purchasing:

Magyar Warriors

[Panama]

In a turn based game it's not easy to replicate historical events. One force moves and attacks, in this case for an entire week. And the opposing force does nothing for that entire same week. They don't react. They don't move. They just sit there and twiddle their thumbs. Then time is moved back to the first day of the week and the opposing force moves while the first force does nothing. They just sit there and twiddle their thumbs, perhaps playing cards and drinking.

So no, you will not get a Smolensk as historical or frontier battles except very one sided ones. Seven days doing nothing is a long time.

Wasn't this thread about books? [:D]

[barkman44]

I think the myth about prokohorvka was the # of tanks the germans commited.They show figures for full strength pz div.and heavy pz.regiments.
By that time of Citedal they were far from that #.

[Rafo35]

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

I don't think there is anything resembling what Glantz describes in his multi-volume treatment of Smolensk in those AARs you mentioned. Couple lucky attacks that's all. Some of them due to 1:1 modifier, which Comrade Pieter hates with passion. [;)]

I still wait to see multi-army summer Sov offensives. (Glantz mentions 5 to 7 armies, I'd be OK with just, say, 2-3.)

In my current pbem CG, I'am in my third or fourth turn of counteroffensive with (from north to south) 27th army, 8th army, 11th army and 22th army. It began in July, along the front of the main German offensive (he attacks Leningrad, I attack Pskov). Well, to be honest, it doesn't go very far, alghough several battles are won every turn on this front, and it has something to do with the uber concentration of Germans at the point of the offensive (and so few initially on the flanks).

Some attacks are won (and lost) elsewhere almost every turn, by concentrating on some weak (regiment) or weakened unit.

More on topic :
- the "vicious counterattacks" didn't take a lot of hex I think ...
- the Soviet counterattacks in September (after the whole AGC catch up and during the Kiev operation) were particulary counter-productive (even from a Soviet point of view) and were one of the major reason to the early success of Typhoon (according to Glantz in his book about Barby).

Also, about the resistance of historical Soviet Pocket, I wonder if those Pocket that did resist several weeks would be the equivalent of true pocket in WITE (completely isolated vs isolated in the german turn, no more isolated in Soviet turn, re-isolated in the next German turn, etc.).