Waiting for the spring miracle... Oleg (Sov) vs Senno (Axis), NO Senno

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

#2
Hope for the best but plan for the worst!

Leo, with 1=1 ants vs German supermen that's all I do.

[karonagames]

Sorry, forgot to put the "I'm-not-being-serious" smiley.[:)]

But, to be serious, and without seeing the fort levels on the hexes, the defence of Leningrad is not making best use of the available resources, if there are no entrenchments protecting the rail-line into the city, and the hexes north and south of the river just east of the city, then the back door to the city is wide open - just like my game with Trey.

edit: My standard digging plan by turn 6. Speedy's supermen didn't cross the Luga, let alone get in the back door to Leningrad.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Oleg, try best to secure all ports to the north-east - this is needed for supply!


Leo "Apollo11"

[Q-Ball]

I personally think Leningrad can be defended, against even the most determined German opponents.

In my game vs. Von Beanie, I think I'll take it, but his defense was much tougher this time, despite the fact that I committed lots of extra stuff to AGN. And in the end, he made one mistake, and I was only able to take advantage of it because I got lucky. I bet that's the last time he loses Leningrad to anyone, the way he played it otherwise.

Level-4 forts along the Neva defended by 3-deep stacks are very tough to beat. That should be the goal of any Soviet player, even if it means an early withdrawl to the Volkhov for the rest of the front.

I think you made some mistakes in your defense Oleg, that if you hadn't made, you would be in better position. Even so, I look at your situation, and I still you could be OK, but you need to buy time to dig. Stack 9 division-sized units along the Neva, no less, and get some construction units into the HQ there. Start digging along the Volkhov, and make a withdrawl there.

I do think keeping Leningrad land-connected IS very difficult against a good German opponent. That ship has probably sailed for you.

Your critical mistake was not digging-in at the Neva Backdoor hex. A good Soviet player won't make that mistake, not after seeing a few AARs......

[Oleg Mastruko]

I appreciate all the advice given... [:D] but some of you seem to miss my point...

Germans should not be able to take LG the way Senno did (or most probably will) in this game. Shining green with morale, happy and merry, after slugging thru swamps and forts....

Having said that, in fact I think LG will fall to Axis routinely, and taking it is not hard at all. My preferred method is going far to the east and south, concentrating AGN + 1 corps borrowed from AGM NE of Velikye Luki and linking with the Finns. VERY VERY hard to stop for Soviets, because he HAS to man the Luga approach in any case. This approach has additional benefits that if it succeeds it bags lots of Sov units in the LG area. Bulldozing approach does not encircle many units. Try it as German it's surprisingly easy, and makes all his defensive preparations in the Luga area moot.

To stop this, Soviet would have to send many many units to Velikye Luki area right from the turn one, something Sov players will be reluctant to do.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Sorry, forgot to put the "I'm-not-being-serious" smiley.[:)]

But, to be serious, and without seeing the fort levels on the hexes, the defence of Leningrad is not making best use of the available resources, if there are no entrenchments protecting the rail-line into the city, and the hexes north and south of the river just east of the city, then the back door to the city is wide open - just like my game with Trey.

edit: My standard digging plan by turn 6. Speedy's supermen didn't cross the Luga, let alone get in the back door to Leningrad.

Don't forget though Bob I was 'nerfed' by Uber Swamps and the Armaments thing during our game....those damn tools and bad workmen [;)]

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Don't forget though Bob I was 'nerfed' by Uber Swamps and the Armaments thing during our game....those damn tools and bad workmen

Wasn't the "armaments thing" generally thought to have helped the Germans (ie nerfed the Sovs)?

[Speedysteve]

Affected both SU and Axis

[karonagames]

Wasn't the "armaments thing" generally thought to have helped the Germans (ie nerfed the Sovs)?

I was a million men light until turn 14, so I was fighting with one arm tied behind my back, but Speedy feels bad enough already.[;)]

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I personally think Leningrad can be defended, against even the most determined German opponents.

I think you're probably right, but it is still easy to screw up (speaking as someone with experience). For the Sovs it is a difficult balancing act between defending the city itself and defending the ports (and the Finnish border) to the east. Since you need to dig in as deeply as possible, to a certain extent you have to decide on your deployment on Turn 1, before knowing where the Germans will focus their attack, whereas the German can adjust his attack on the fly to a much greater extent. Throwing a bunch of unfortified 1 CV units in the path of the attacking panzers is pretty much useless.

One thing which exacerbates the problem for me is that my recon planes often only fly a couple of flights, and it can be difficult to tell what the Germans are up to as the approach Lgrad. Why my bombers and other planes refuse to fly recon missions sort of escapes me...

[EDIT] And I tend to agree with Oleg that it seems to be too easy for the Germans to simply bull their way into Lgrad.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I personally think Leningrad can be defended, against even the most determined German opponents.

In my game vs. Von Beanie, I think I'll take it, but his defense was much tougher this time, despite the fact that I committed lots of extra stuff to AGN. And in the end, he made one mistake, and I was only able to take advantage of it because I got lucky. I bet that's the last time he loses Leningrad to anyone, the way he played it otherwise.

Level-4 forts along the Neva defended by 3-deep stacks are very tough to beat. That should be the goal of any Soviet player, even if it means an early withdrawl to the Volkhov for the rest of the front.

I think you made some mistakes in your defense Oleg, that if you hadn't made, you would be in better position. Even so, I look at your situation, and I still you could be OK, but you need to buy time to dig. Stack 9 division-sized units along the Neva, no less, and get some construction units into the HQ there. Start digging along the Volkhov, and make a withdrawl there.

I do think keeping Leningrad land-connected IS very difficult against a good German opponent. That ship has probably sailed for you.

Your critical mistake was not digging-in at the Neva Backdoor hex. A good Soviet player won't make that mistake, not after seeing a few AARs......

Your statement is generally true unless the German player throws a lot of additional force to the north, then nothing the Soviet player can do can stop it. But then the Germans will sacrifice elsewhere to gain the city.

I begin the defense of the city right on turn 1 and it continues to grow until such time the Germans have either advanced to it or have abandoned their attempt. Time is essential so slowing the advancing forces by whatever means possible is key to survival. The early construction of forts along both sides of the Neva, defending in depth, reorgoanization of the C&C, and the placement of adequate forces in theatre are but a few of the steps needed.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Wasn't the "armaments thing" generally thought to have helped the Germans (ie nerfed the Sovs)?

I was a million men light until turn 14, so I was fighting with one arm tied behind my back, but Speedy feels bad enough already.[;)]

Bob's in a teasing mood today so I won't rise to it [:'(]

Affected both parties but the SU more.

P.S. Bob you better hope I never woop your **** at one of our games [:'(]

[Ketza]

I am of the opinion that if the Axis player commits enough extra resources that Leningrad should indeed fall.

If in 1941 AGN had an extra Panzer army at its disposal and another 5-10 infantry divisions they would have rather easily mopped the place up. I mean they came rather close without the extra assets most Axis players commit in this game.

The only question then is what negative impact does this have on other parts of the front. thats what the Soviet player needs to think about if that amount of power gets focused on leningrad.

[Q-Ball]

Without giving away too much, I am living this right now in my AAR with Von Beanie. I committed an extra Panzer Corps turn 1, and sent pretty much all the Infantry Reinforcements that way. Plus, all the Heavy Artillery that starts in 4th and 9th Armies.

The result? I should take Leningrad, but I am suffering on other fronts. Choices of war.

It is an interesting RL question: Could the Germans have taken Leningrad if they put more of a priority on it? I think YES, though that would have meant giving up the drive on Moscow IRL probably.

[Oleg Mastruko]

Q-Ball, my advice to you and my opponent Senno would be the same. However he's my opponent and it would be stupid of me to advice him [:D] You're not so I can. I don't know what units Senno borrowed from other fronts, if any, to bulldoze his way to LG, but it's true his position elsewhere on the map is not stellar so he might have borrowed some, being ready to pay the price.

You both should have taken only infantry from other sectors, and go for the Velikye Luki then NE way, not bulldozing towards LG proper. VL aproach is truely frightening if it succeeds because it traps lots of units in LG pocket. Compared to that losing LG like this, in orderly manner, seems not too threatening. Still, it feels wrong and frustrating from gameplay POV. Simply can't stop the supermen - not because they outmanouvred me, rather just because they're supermen!

[Encircled]

The VL approach is a cast iron bitch to deal with, as it threatens so much of your line, and you don't have the troops to do a proper defence.

If you can slow him right down, then its a disaster for the Germans, but its bloody hard to slow him down!

[mmarquo]

"WHAT DOES THIS FREAKING GAME WANT ME TO DO TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT SUPERMEN ON EQUAL TERMS? OK, lets forget fighting on anything remotely resembling equal terms, what do I have to do to inflict casualties, fatigue, bad omens, TOE losses, constipation, diarhhea, ANYTHING to these ubermen??? "
 
The best thing you can do: stop defeating yourself by granting the Axis "ubermensch" status; this is a defeatest psychology which only breeds defeat. Concentrate on winning, not excusing defeat.  Not One Step Back. Fight - Do Not Whine.
 
Marquo [:)]

[Oleg Mastruko]

I can't really explain it Marquo, I like your posts and they make me smile even though we happen to disagree on most issues. Maybe it's the smiling commisar in your avatar picture doing the trick? [:D]

Anyhow, yes I am fighting here, and not whining, but when something happens that is in my opinion flawed, I will make sure forum knows about it [:D]

[bevans]

The Germans got into the suburbs of Leningrad then Hitler decided he would rather have a few million starved Russians than conquered Russians and South went the panzers and up went the siege lines.

Sorry, I think whining about the Germans taking Leningrad in '41 is just that, whining. The Germans can take ANYTHING they want in '41, they just can't take EVERYTHING. It doesn't take ubermen, just the Wehrmacht at the height of its powers vs an SU still suffering the aftershocks of purges, ineffective TOEs and a change in strategic from the Stalin Line to forward defense - and the ensuing quick loss of a million or two soldiers. Most of which is pretty accurately modeled in the game. I don't see this result as ahistoric (except in the sense it didn't happen - not COULDN'T happen), just a different prioritization of goals.

And trust me, as a German player, the Panzers really do suffer from fatigue and erosion of fighting power, rendering them less effective as the campaign continues. They are still better than anything the SU has but how exactly that is not an accurate reflection of the early months of the war, I would be interested to hear.

Finally, isn't this AAR all about how the Germans can't survive the first winter. Your 'turn' is still to come, when Senno will be whining about Soviet supermen.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: bevans
The Germans can take ANYTHING they want in '41, they just can't take EVERYTHING. Finally, isn't this AAR all about how the Germans can't survive the first winter. Your 'turn' is still to come, when Senno will be whining about Soviet supermen.

Well bevans, I am strating to accept your line of thinking. On some philosophical, Zen, eastern mysticist level that is indeed the best way to accept the supermen of this game [:D]

"It is just the way universe works, let him take whatever he wants and wait for my own superman period" LOL