Ship Class Endurance

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: JWE

They are taken into account in data.

You asked the question. It was answered.

Don't care if you like it, care even less if you understand it.

This has become annoying. Good day.

So the game engine, when it converts the endurance from 15kts to 28kts for a King George V class BB, takes into account the lwl and curvature of the hull etc as distinct from, say, an Indianapolis class CA and comes up with the correct endurance even though the hull characteristics appear nowhere in the editor data? I find that hard to believe. There must be some generalization somewhere that is not based upon individual ship hull characteristics. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, I can't help being a layman.

EDIT: Is the "Manuever" value used in these calculations? If there is some connection between hull characteristics and "Manuever" then I could see some sense to the assertion that the characteristics of individual ship hulls are taken into account. Otherwise I'm perplexed. [&:]

Do you play this game? it does not sound like it. If you play this game you will know the answer to this latest complaining. But this was not your original question. And I think you got a good answer and you just did not like it.

There is two speeds, full speed and cruise speed. A TF will move at the slowest cruise speed and the slowest full speed of a ships in the TF. It is stupid to make a fast ship go at 12 kt cruise speed just because a internet site says so. so ships datas are normaled to a cruise speed of 15 kt so they can operate together. Full speed uses 6 times the fuel per hex as cruise speed. and endurance numbers are calculated by mathematics to be normaled to this two features no matter what the ship.

but your question was how to go endurance from 12 or 20 to 15 and you got a good answer. Set endurance number by mathematics so it is accurate at game cruise speed and the game full speed and if you don't like mathematics then you have no cause to complaint.

MO

Who is complaining? I'm simply trying to plead my case. Things like lwl and horsepower don't appear in the database from what I can tell. If they are factored into the endurance calculations for each ship class then it is a mystery to me how the game engine is getting its data, unless it is factored somewhere into the "maneuver", "fuel capacity" or some other value. If so then more power to the designers. If not then I'm wondering what is so blasphemous about deriving an unknown value by applying the ratio between known values to the unknown to come up with an estimate? Is that not what the game engine ultimately does without values like lwl and horsepower at its disposal? [&:]

Besides, I'm bored and have nothing better to do than squabble over a computer game. My apologies for the inconvenience.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress



So the game engine, when it converts the endurance from 15kts to 28kts for a King George V class BB, takes into account the lwl and curvature of the hull etc as distinct from, say, an Indianapolis class CA and comes up with the correct endurance even though the hull characteristics appear nowhere in the editor data? I find that hard to believe. There must be some generalization somewhere that is not based upon individual ship hull characteristics. I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, I can't help being a layman.

EDIT: Is the "Manuever" value used in these calculations? If there is some connection between hull characteristics and "Manuever" then I could see some sense to the assertion that the characteristics of individual ship hulls are taken into account. Otherwise I'm perplexed. [&:]

Do you play this game? it does not sound like it. If you play this game you will know the answer to this latest complaining. But this was not your original question. And I think you got a good answer and you just did not like it.

There is two speeds, full speed and cruise speed. A TF will move at the slowest cruise speed and the slowest full speed of a ships in the TF. It is stupid to make a fast ship go at 12 kt cruise speed just because a internet site says so. so ships datas are normaled to a cruise speed of 15 kt so they can operate together. Full speed uses 6 times the fuel per hex as cruise speed. and endurance numbers are calculated by mathematics to be normaled to this two features no matter what the ship.

but your question was how to go endurance from 12 or 20 to 15 and you got a good answer. Set endurance number by mathematics so it is accurate at game cruise speed and the game full speed and if you don't like mathematics then you have no cause to complaint.

MO

Who is complaining? I'm simply trying to plead my case. Things like lwl and horsepower don't appear in the database from what I can tell. If they are factored into the endurance calculations for each ship class then it is a mystery to me how the game engine is getting its data, unless it is factored somewhere into the "maneuver", "fuel capacity" or some other value. If so then more power to the designers. If not then I'm wondering what is so blasphemous about deriving an unknown value by applying the ratio between known values to the unknown to come up with an estimate? Is that not what the game engine ultimately does without values like lwl and horsepower at its disposal? [&:]

Besides, I'm bored and have nothing better to do than squabble over a computer game. My apologies for the inconvenience.

What you need to do is find an in-game ship (or ships) with "very similar" stats - hull form coefficients (mainly block and waterplane), displacement ("standard", not something else), engine horsepower ("shaft", not something else), lwl (not loa, but lpp is ok if you can't get lwl), and plot their fuel mile values. In the Venn circle, plot your ship. then read the number off the 15 knot axis.

Or as alternatively suggested reach up your arse and pull something out your happy with.[;)]

[GaryChildress]

I'm not just "pulling numbers out of my ass". I've given my rationale for using the numbers I used. If no one wants to accept them because they think the game engine is magically doing its calculations with data it doesn't possess then that's not my problem. In the words of JWE...Have a good day.

[Anonymous]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I'm not just "pulling numbers out of my ass". I've given my rationale for using the numbers I used. If no one wants to accept them because they think the game engine is magically doing its calculations with data it doesn't possess then that's not my problem. In the words of JWE...Have a good day.

You have miss the point completely Mr Childress and that is why people are frustrated with you.

There is two speeds in the game. Cruise speed and full speed. And that is all the game cares about. And cruise speed is 15 knots for mostly warships and endurance is calculated to a fuel consumption for 15 knots cruise speed and endurance also has to work for fule consumption at full speed at 6 times the fuel consumption at cruise speed.

The internet sometimes gives pretty little numbers for endurance for a ships at 12 and 20 and 32 knots but if you want endurance number at 15 knots all of these are wrong.

A lot of people tell you how to calculate the endurance number for 15 knot cruise speed from different internet data. You should stop complaining and listen to them. This is because the cruise speed is important for task force speed and the endurance is important for game calculation of moves of mission speed and full speed.

It is up to YOU to set what is cruise speed for a ship. It is up to YOU to convert the internet datas of endurance to the cruise speed that YOU choose. It is up to YOU to do the mathematics right so to put a good endurance number for a right cruise speed. It is up to YOU to understand what is going on and listen to people who are smart and develop this. If you understand what is going on you can pull a number out of your plush and it will work ok maybe. But I think you do not understand what is going on and do not want to understand what is going on and so can only wish you good luck.

MO

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I'm not just "pulling numbers out of my ass". I've given my rationale for using the numbers I used. If no one wants to accept them because they think the game engine is magically doing its calculations with data it doesn't possess then that's not my problem. In the words of JWE...Have a good day.

You have miss the point completely Mr Childress and that is why people are frustrated with you.

There is two speeds in the game. Cruise speed and full speed. And that is all the game cares about. And cruise speed is 15 knots for mostly warships and endurance is calculated to a fuel consumption for 15 knots cruise speed and endurance also has to work for fule consumption at full speed at 6 times the fuel consumption at cruise speed.

The internet sometimes gives pretty little numbers for endurance for a ships at 12 and 20 and 32 knots but if you want endurance number at 15 knots all of these are wrong.

A lot of people tell you how to calculate the endurance number for 15 knot cruise speed from different internet data. You should stop complaining and listen to them. This is because the cruise speed is important for task force speed and the endurance is important for game calculation of moves of mission speed and full speed.

It is up to YOU to set what is cruise speed for a ship. It is up to YOU to convert the internet datas of endurance to the cruise speed that YOU choose. It is up to YOU to do the mathematics right so to put a good endurance number for a right cruise speed. It is up to YOU to understand what is going on and listen to people who are smart and develop this. If you understand what is going on you can pull a number out of your plush and it will work ok maybe. But I think you do not understand what is going on and do not want to understand what is going on and so can only wish you good luck.

MO

I would be tickled pink if someone would just answer my repeated question of how the game engine takes lwl and horsepower for individual ships (values, which aren't in the database as far as I can tell) into consideration when it re-calculates the endurance from 15kts to 30kts. If you want to blather on about who is listening and who isn't then answer me that and I'll be happy. If the game is taking them into consideration then I'm wrong. If the game engine isn't then what's the big fuss about me arriving at a number by comparing r/l endurance ratios? [&:]

[Anonymous]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I'm not just "pulling numbers out of my ass". I've given my rationale for using the numbers I used. If no one wants to accept them because they think the game engine is magically doing its calculations with data it doesn't possess then that's not my problem. In the words of JWE...Have a good day.

You have miss the point completely Mr Childress and that is why people are frustrated with you.

There is two speeds in the game. Cruise speed and full speed. And that is all the game cares about. And cruise speed is 15 knots for mostly warships and endurance is calculated to a fuel consumption for 15 knots cruise speed and endurance also has to work for fule consumption at full speed at 6 times the fuel consumption at cruise speed.

The internet sometimes gives pretty little numbers for endurance for a ships at 12 and 20 and 32 knots but if you want endurance number at 15 knots all of these are wrong.

A lot of people tell you how to calculate the endurance number for 15 knot cruise speed from different internet data. You should stop complaining and listen to them. This is because the cruise speed is important for task force speed and the endurance is important for game calculation of moves of mission speed and full speed.

It is up to YOU to set what is cruise speed for a ship. It is up to YOU to convert the internet datas of endurance to the cruise speed that YOU choose. It is up to YOU to do the mathematics right so to put a good endurance number for a right cruise speed. It is up to YOU to understand what is going on and listen to people who are smart and develop this. If you understand what is going on you can pull a number out of your plush and it will work ok maybe. But I think you do not understand what is going on and do not want to understand what is going on and so can only wish you good luck.

MO

I would be tickled pink if someone would just answer my repeated question of how the game engine takes lwl and horsepower for individual ships (values, which aren't in the database as far as I can tell) into consideration when it re-calculates the endurance from 15kts to 30kts. If you want to blather on about who is listening and who isn't then answer me that and I'll be happy. If the game is taking them into consideration then I'm wrong. If the game engine isn't then what's the big fuss about me arriving at a number by comparing r/l endurance ratios? [&:]

and you have got repeated answers to your repeated questions that the game just looks at cruise speed and full speed. YOU must calculate the difference for endurance for your internet sources to the game. YOU must understand the lwl and horsepower affects to make YOUR numbers work. YOU are the one who should understand the mathematics. YOU are the one who decide what numbers to put into the data base.

The game does NOT calculate this things. YOU calculate this things. and put the right numbers into the data base. everybody is trying to help you calculate this things but you do not want to understand what they say.

MO

If you were smart I could help you maybe but from your posts I don't think you are very smart. If you really need help beyond what everybody else is saying maybe you can send a pm. I mean are you really dumb enough to think that Hillmans's and earnheart's, and gordons and baynes cars at taledega calculate all that crape alone???? No it is the men that do the numbers that make a car a winner. IT IS THE MEN. THAT DO THE NUBERS. IT IS NOT THE STUPID PROGRAM THAT YOU BLAME EVERYTHING ON. IT IS THE MEN AND WHAT THE MEN DO TO MAKE THINGS WORK. I am beginning to think like Jwe and think you are not worth answering anymore.

[GaryChildress]

Thank you for the answer to my question!

I did a few tests on the game engine, and guess what! According to the game engine it doesn't matter what speeds you plug into cruise or full speed, it will give you the same results regardless.

If I do an endurance of 12,000 that translates into 300 hexes at cruise speed and 75 hexes at full speed regardless of the actual speeds I set. Cruise speed can be 10kts and full speed 30kts and it will give you an endurance of 300/75 hexes respectively. Cruise speed can be 20kts and full speed can be 30kts and it still gives you an endurance of 300/75 hexes respectively. Cruise speed can be 15kts and full can be 20kts and it gives you the same thing. Is that supposed to be the results of a precision calculation? Heck, why am I wasting my time trying compare ratios between 15kts and 20kts to come up with a reasonably accurate endurance for a ship? The game itself doesn't care one way or the other!

Now compare different types of ships with different endurances in the game. Notice they all come out to about the same ratio in hexes between cruise and full speed. On the top is actual game values. On the bottom are values I derived for the other ships using BB N. Carolina as a base line. Basically for each of the other ships cuise endurance is given and full speed endurance is "X". Turns out they all have approximately the same ratio between cruise and full irrespective of hull shape, size, horsepower, you name it. Nothing matters. Cruise is cruise and full is full. Endurance is consistent across the ship types tested (BB, CA, CL, DD).

I'll test auxiliaries next to see if there's any variation there.

[Anonymous]

obviously you do not get it. so go do your little tests. and maybe they are worth something. but I no longer care and I don't think Jwe or anybody else cares anymore.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

obviously you do not get it. so go do your little tests. and maybe they are worth something. but I no longer care and I don't think Jwe or anybody else cares anymore.

What is there to get? I'm being told that all these little variables make a difference in the game when they don't. Maybe I SHOULD "pull stats out of my ass"! The game seems to be getting them from the same place!

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

obviously you do not get it. so go do your little tests. and maybe they are worth something. but I no longer care and I don't think Jwe or anybody else cares anymore.

What is there to get? I'm being told that all these little variables make a difference in the game when they don't. Maybe I SHOULD "pull stats out of my ass"! The game seems to be getting them from the same place!

Gary...no matter how many tests you run you will find that cruise speed gets you 6 times as many hexes as full speed in endurance...as O pointed out above.

You have to do math to figure out what the appropriate values are for the endurance of the ship you want to design.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

obviously you do not get it. so go do your little tests. and maybe they are worth something. but I no longer care and I don't think Jwe or anybody else cares anymore.

What is there to get? I'm being told that all these little variables make a difference in the game when they don't. Maybe I SHOULD "pull stats out of my ass"! The game seems to be getting them from the same place!

Gary...no matter how many tests you run you will find that cruise speed gets you 6 times as many hexes as full speed in endurance...as O pointed out above.

You have to do math to figure out what the appropriate values are for the endurance of the ship you want to design.

Everyone is telling me that I need to figure in all these ship characteristics to come up with the endurance at 15kts. Let's say I do all those calculations and come up with a precise, exacting number for endurance at 15kts. The game is just going to take that number and turn it into poop anyway when it starts doing its calculations for full speed. But maybe you are right. Poop from prime rib is probably better than whatever it is that comes out of starting with poop.

[Anonymous]

yes. if you are not smart enough or too lazy enought to do it the right way then what you get is poop. It is what I learn twenty years ago. garbage-in, garbage-out. and what you want to do is garbage. I do not think you are smart enough to know what people are saying so it is worthless to say more. so I do what Jwe did and wash my hands of you.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Osterhaut

yes. if you are not smart enough or too lazy enought to do it the right way then what you get is poop. It is what I learn twenty years ago. garbage-in, garbage-out. and what you want to do is garbage. I do not think you are smart enough to know what people are saying so it is worthless to say more. so I do what Jwe did and wash my hands of you.

I'm so sorry your lordship! It's been over twenty years since I touched a math book. I was pretty good at it once upon a time but I've forgotten just about everything I knew. So yes math intimidates me anymore and I'm not happy when people say I can't do a mod "right" because I don't know enough math to do it. Good thing people like you and JWE are around to discourage the inferior modders out there! [;)]

[dwg]

I think people are talking at cross-purposes and it's spinning into annoyance without anyone quite figuring out why the other guy is being so obtuse. There are at least four different things we're discussing before we even get into modding new vessels into the system.

1) The real-world calculation of endurance, which takes into account things like speed, wetted area, parasitic drag and the like (I'm more familiar with the aerospace situation, so some of those may not be the naval terms).

2) Real world data, snapshots at different speeds that don't correlate between different classes and that can't be interpolated because none of this varies linearly and we don't in general have enough data points to work out the drag curves for each class.

3) The game's model, buried in the code, which doesn't attempt to model individual characteristics like hull-form, but just takes an endurance figure from the database of Class X has Endurance Y and converts that into going Z hexes at cruise speed and a related number at max speed (Z/6 from what's been said here).

4) The game's stock database, with endurance figures based on the knowledge of people who either have been able to source accurate date or can produce a reasonable estimate based on real world data, their knowledge of how real world endurance figures derive from design and physics, and their knowledge of how the game models endurance.

Then along comes Jack Tar the modder and wants to add a new ship, but he doesn't have the knowledge to do 1, 2 isn't sufficient data, 3 is largely opaque to him, and he again doesn't have the knowledge to duplicate 4*.

There's just no way around this, we can't duplicate the processes that go into generating accurate endurance figures, because they depend on a very specific combination of professional, historical/technical and game-engine-specific knowledge, and that's not something we can practically access. In those circumstances our best hope is to rule of thumb it, and that means finding a comparable vessel in game, and guesstimating endurance pro-rata based on their relative bunkerages.

* When JWE said 'They're in the data' AFAICS he meant the calculations going into the simple endurance figure for the class in the database, Gary seems to have assumed he meant the data going into a calculation in the code.

For Gary's example of the Dutch Project 1067 Battlecruiser, I'd use any real-world data I can find on Scharnhorst, because it's a derivative of that design with a presumably similar hull-form, and in the likelihood that I can't source bunkerage details for a never-were to compare with Scharnhorst's actual, simply assume that the Project 1067 was substantially longer-legged, given different strategic drivers in swapping a North Sea oriented design to the Dutch East Indies.

[GaryChildress]

OK. I've been thinking it over and I sincerely apologize to JWE and the rest. I can be hard headed at times. I'm sorry if I caused a stir. In honesty I know where JWE and others were coming from as far as the stats are concerned, it's probably better to have the initial numbers rigorously calculated as opposed to fudging the initial endurance numbers for "what-if" ships. I was trying to make the case that a little fudging doesn't hurt because that's, more or less, what the game engine does when it calculates the change in endurance from cruise to full speed. But I guess it's a bit of a slippery slope when it comes to being sloppy with stats. If you start out sloppy you just end up sloppier than if you started out with good data.

Anyway, please accept my humble apologies. [:o]

[JWE]

Fair enough, Gary. I offer my apologies in return.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Fair enough, Gary. I offer my apologies in return.

Apology accepted, although not needed. [:)]

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Pascal

The best source for US ship endurance is the post war "War Fuel Consumption" study done by the Navy. I have a PDF of this somewhere. If you want it, I can email it to anyone. Just PM me.

Thanks. Would this be what you are referring to? http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Fuel/index.html

Haven't been on the Forum in a couple weeks due to a move here on the West Coast.

Yes, Gary, that's the document.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Pascal

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Pascal

The best source for US ship endurance is the post war "War Fuel Consumption" study done by the Navy. I have a PDF of this somewhere. If you want it, I can email it to anyone. Just PM me.

Thanks. Would this be what you are referring to? http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Fuel/index.html

Haven't been on the Forum in a couple weeks due to a move here on the West Coast.

Yes, Gary, that's the document.

Thanks for the reply. [:)]

In the document it gives a value for "engine miles". Is that what should be used to calculate endurance or is there some other value? I notice in the editor the endurance for CB Alaska is 12,000nm at 15kts, however, on the chart (if I'm reading it correctly) it gives an endurance of 9,840±260 "engine miles" at 15.4kts. What are "engine miles" and how do they relate to the actual number of nautical miles a ship can travel?

[anarchyintheuk]

The document defines 'engine miles' in the Introduction:

"It appears preferable to specify radius in engine miles. This term is used throughout the following pages. An individual ship can determine her radius in navigational miles by multiplying the endurance at a given propeller speed by the corresponding ship speed found by navigational means.

It is evident from practical considerations that no single exact value can be found for fuel rate, endurance or radius at a given propeller speed. Mean values can, however, be obtained which are representative for average conditions. In all cases it is possible to increase the significance of the mean values by supplying them with tolerances to take account of normal variations in operating conditions. The determination of these tolerances is one of the most important and valuable features of this study."