Empire of the Rising Lemon? SqzMyLemon (Japan) v Smeulders (Allies)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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SqzMyLemon
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RE: Nearing the end of October/42

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Watching this with GREAT interest.  Very impressive to contemplate PH at this time.

Thanks for following along Pax.

It will only be impressive if it accomplishes something [;)]. Otherwise, it may go down as one of the dumbest moves in recent game memory [8|]. Sometimes you just have to say "what the %^&# and go for it", if I remember correctly from Risky Business. [:D]

Stay tuned as it could get wild. I just hope my opponent cooperates so there might be a naval clash when it is still doubtful as to the outcome.

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
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Oct. 29-30/42

Post by SqzMyLemon »

Oct. 29/42:

Burma:

After the poor result over Cox's Bazar I wanted to try something with my air units. I launched a bombing raid on Shwebo with numerous units of bombers and fighters. The results were poor, but I was more interested in seeing how the AI committed my forces, the order of attack and how my units would coordinate. Weather at Shwebo was thunderstorms. Shwebo was picked because there were no enemy air units present, a good testing ground and an added benefit of causing damage to the airbase unopposed.

Here's the list of aircraft involved, base flown from, number of aircraft, the range to Shwebo, altitude, mission set and the actual mission performed. The order written is the order in which the air units attacked from the combat reports. All occurred during the morning air phase.

33rd Sentai (Ki-43-Ic Oscar) - Taung Gyi - 30 aircraft - Range 3 - 24k - Sweep - Sweep
64th Sentai (Ki-43-Ic Oscar) - Toungoo - 36 aircraft - Range 5 - 12k - Escort - Sweep
59th Sentai (Ki-43-Ic Oscar) - Lashio - 36 aircraft - Range 3 - 15k - Sweep - Sweep
85th Sentai (Ki-44-IIa Tojo) - Toungoo - 28 aircraft - 5 - 20k - Sweep - Sweep
87th Sentai (Ki-44-IIa Tojo) - Toungoo - 23 aircraft - 5 - 25k - Sweep - Sweep
12th Sentai (Ki-21-Ic Sally) - Chaing Mai - 24 aircraft - 8 - 10k - Airfield - Airfield (This unit was escorted by the unit below)
13th Sentai (Ki-45 KAIa Nick) -Taung Gyi - 22 aircraft - 3 - 15k - Escort - Escort (Note the different altitude! Bombers at 10k and fighters at 15k)
98th Sentai (Ki-21-Ic Sally) - Chaing Mai - 29 aircraft - 8 - 12k - Airfield - Airfield (This unit was to be escorted by 64th Sentai above set to same altitude)

Damage to Shwebo was 4 AB and 12 Runway hits. Disappointing to be sure, but thunderstorms over the target.

Why am I posting this? It's one day of combat over a single target and proves nothing, but I note a few interesting things. With the exception of 64th and 13th Sentai's, every unit attacked in numerical order by the Sentai unit designation numerically from lowest to highest. Is this by design, or due to the range to target as stated below?

Other than the 64th Sentai which was set to escort and swept instead, all fighters designated sweep missions attacked Shwebo in order of range to the target. The closet unit (33rd Sentai) swept first, followed by 59th, 85th and 87th Sentai's. This is important, because I'd generally like to have the Tojo's be the first sweepers initially to inflict the greatest loss on the enemy. This means I must move them closer to the target in order to attack first, or at least I hope that will happen. That being said though, why did 59th Sentai attack first even though the Tojo's were also range 5 away form Shwebo. What determined the order of attack? Is there a chance a Tojo unit could have swept sooner?

It appears the altitude of each individual unit had no bearing on the order of attacks by the fighters. The bombers did attack in order of altitude and operated from the same airbase.

The bombers also attacked in order of unit designation. What was most interesting, was that a bomber unit set to 10k was escorted by a fighter unit set to 15k. Does this debunk the consensus that bombers and fighters must be set to the same altitude to increase coordination between bomber and escort, or did something else cause this?

I plan on following my air missions much more closely to learn if I can improve coordination, the order in which my aircraft attack and above all to improve the effectiveness of my air operations. I'm not saying things don't work, or is fubar, but I do want to understand what is happening so I make better decisions for improved results.

China:

Changsha airbase was pounded by Sonia's again inflicting 8 AB, 1 ABS and 82 Runway hits. The defenders of Changsha were bombed by Ki-21-Ic Sally's (18) for 0(6) infantry and 0(10) non-combat squad losses totalling 109 casualties. It all adds up. Ground troops followed up with an artillery bombardment that caused 2(1) infantry and 0(2) non-combat squads lost for 60 casualties. I plan a deliberate attack tomorrow, it may be too soon but I want Changsha dealt with sooner than later now.

The 17th Chinese/b Corps near Sining was bombed for 8(0) infantry and 4(1) non-combat squad losses totalling 92 casualties. This unit is close to being destroyed.

Miscellaneous:

Peleliu expands fortifications to size 1
Madang expands airfield to size 4
Ambon expands fortifications to size 4
Ankang expands fortifications to size 3

Oct. 30/42:

Sub Ops:

SS I-175 is spotted by the AM Madras near Vanua Lava, but the enemy ship does not attack. Leter in the phase, the SS I-175 decides it will attack the AM Madras and actually hits and sinks her with a torpedo hit!

This is more like it. It's been a long time coming, but now that the Allies are operating where I can find them, they are taking losses. Small ships to be sure, but I can only hope as bigger Allied ships are commited they will vulnerable too.

Ndeni

Yesterday, I had attempted to intercept another Allied fast transport TF unloading at the base, unfortunately the DD's did not move as planned under full speed and no interception of the enemy occurred. Either a CD unit or a base unit has now been landed. Construction of an enemy airfield will result shortly.

China:

All bomber units were set to ground attack at Changsha today in preparation for another assault on the base. The Chinese defenders suffered 0(14) infantry, 1(15) non-combat and 0(1) engineer squads lost totalling 203 casualties.

A deliberate attack followed, and as feared, the attack suffered heavy losses. Japanese losses were 96(107) infantry, 59(110) non-combat and 1(30) engineer squads lost totalling 3569 casualties. the Chinese suffered only 16(58) infantry, 18(37) non-combat and 7(7) guns lost totalling 949 casualties. The odds were 1:1 however and the forts reduced to level 2. It's soon to fall, the question is do I drag it out to reduce losses or drive hard to finish it and move on?

After today's movements, I now have Changsha completely surrounded, although the W. and N.W. internal hexsides at Changsha are still open to the Chinese. This would allow them to retreat across these hexsides after a successful Japanese attack if I understand correctly. I'd like to close them but that will require Japanese units to assault across the river to do so. To the N.W. I have moved the 8th Recon Rgt. and to the West lies the bulk of the 11th Army. I goofed moving the 8th Recon Rgt. as I mistakenly thought of it in terms of an armoured car unit and not a component part of a division as it is. I was going to risk it being destroyed by crossing the river to close the hexside to Chinese retreat. This would mean a succesful ground assault at Changsha would force the defenders to retreat across the river against the 11th Army waiting at Siangtan and be bludgeoned. Then the 11th army could shock attack and wipe out this Chinese force.

My Dilemma is this, if I don't order the unit to cross, Chinese units from Changteh can march and force it out of the hex opening the way for a Chinese retreat to Changteh, or units from Changsha itself can assault across the river to escape by easily dislocating the 8th Recon Rgt. Or, I can risk wiping out the unit by ordering a river assault to close the hexside, allowing the complete destruction of every Chinese unit at Changsha. It appears to me I have to risk the unit, otherwise it can be dislodged/defeated/destroyed without serving a purpose. It's probable destruction would ensure the elimination of nine enemy formations. I'll sleep on it and decide tomorrow.

Miscellaneous:

Fusan expands port to size 8 (I hope this increases the draw of fuel and resources to the base for transport to the Home Islands)
Pisanuloke expands fortifications to size 2
Rabaul expands airfield to size 7
Memboro expands fortifications to size 2
Ruteng expands fortifications to size 2

SC Ch 37 arrives at Okayama
SC Ch 39 arrives at Kobe

The movement of LCU's and supplies has begun for the Hawaiian operation. At the same time, I'm reinforcing New Guinea in an effort to mask my true intentions. The increased traffic around Truk without a corresponding increase around New Guinea might tip the Allies off that something is up in the Central Pacific. It's hard to say how the Allies will respond. I hope it leads to the idea that I'm simply committing more troops to counter Allied moves in the theatre while strengthening my overall defence, and NOT lead to the possibility that I actually intend to threaten Hawaii. Is this an attempt at Maskirovka that makes sense? [:D]

The next turn is the end of October and I'll post screenshots Empire wide. One thing of note, I'm contemplating a pull back in Burma to free up troops for a reserve and strengthen Sumatra. I may voluntarily give up the rail line and Mandalay to form a defensive line solely in rough terrain. Defending against an Allied thrust against Mandalay is an albatros around my neck. As the Allies build up every available airbase I see the potential for a disaster. The Allied air force can simply bomb my defending troops in open terrain into oblivion prior to any ground assault. If I pull back into rough terrain I ensure any Allied moves will have to occur in open terrain where I can at least bomb them forcing the Allied fighters to CAP their ground troops, or face heavy losses to air bombardment. It seems the smart thing to do and doesn't weaken my overall position as I see it. The eventual Burma screenshot will show what I mean more clearly.

Busy days ahead for the Empire!
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
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Morning of Oct. 31/42

Post by SqzMyLemon »

Here's the current situation in Southern China. I've decided to quickly reduce Changsha and get my forces moving again. The following screenshot goes into greater detail explaining my next moves against the base.

13th Army in the west continues to move north. I'm relying on the 21st Ind. Mixed Bde. to deal with the lone Chinese unit across the river prior to the arrival of 13th Army. I'd like the large 16 unit Chinese force to move on Luichow, but it seems doubtful at this point.

23rd Army is waiting at Hengyang already in strat mode for a quick deployment to either Kweilin or Luichow depending on Chinese moves. Once Changsha falls the 11th Army can be quickly redeployed west to assault Tuyun. Once Changsha falls, the 1st Army will be responsible for defending the recent gains and keeping the rail line open against any possible Chinese threat. Any potential move by Chinese units into clear terrain will unleash every Japanese bomber on ground attack in order to decimate the enemy.

More to come...


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Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
fcharton
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RE: Morning of Oct. 31/42

Post by fcharton »

Hi Lemon

In Changsha, your current disposition will force the enemy to surrender (units don't seem to retreat into enemy occupied hexes, or through enemy controlled hexsides). Keep in mind that this takes more time than just forcing them out of the hex. Basically, a unit with a "way out" will retreat once odds get around 3:1 or more, units fenced in will get disabled, and damaged, and surrender corps by corps...

On the other hand, destroying the whole stack is a very good idea. Infantry will respawn, but then they will have to eat, from a smaller rice bowl... and HQ, base forces, and all others are gone for good, and don't get to play guerillas behind your lines.

Francois

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RE: Morning of Oct. 31/42

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: fcharton

In Changsha, your current disposition will force the enemy to surrender (units don't seem to retreat into enemy occupied hexes, or through enemy controlled hexsides). Keep in mind that this takes more time than just forcing them out of the hex. Basically, a unit with a "way out" will retreat once odds get around 3:1 or more, units fenced in will get disabled, and damaged, and surrender corps by corps...

On the other hand, destroying the whole stack is a very good idea. Infantry will respawn, but then they will have to eat, from a smaller rice bowl... and HQ, base forces, and all others are gone for good, and don't get to play guerillas behind your lines.

Francois

Hi Francois,

After you posted it reminded me of a situation I may end up facing that occurred in Criptop's AAR. I have to act quickly to close the N.W. hex side, otherwise if an enemy force from Changteh marches S.E. and enters the hex occupied by the 8th Recon Rgt. it will allow any Chinese unit that also enters this hex from Changsha to escape. If the enemy decides to march from Changsha, or if I end up forcing them to retreat to the N.W. without closing that hex side, I risk them getting away. The defenders at Changsha amount to nine Corps of 67k worth of troops and I definitely do not want this force to escape now.

I'm going to risk the 8th Recon Rgt. and send it across. I'll rest the 1st Army one day and then shock attack in conjunction with the 8th Recon Rgt. crossing the river. I have decided to also use the paratroops, as I want to see how this aspect of the combat model works with halving the defenders. As much as I don't want to take excessive casualties taking Changsha, the fall of the base sooner than later outweighs the loss of the ground troops. Also, once Changsha falls the 1st Army is designated for a defensive role and can recover its strength.

I'd like to test whether a force will indeed not retreat into an enemy controlled hex, but I no longer believe I have the time to find out. Who knows, maybe the defence will simply crumble and I'll bag the lot in one go!
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
fcharton
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RE: Morning of Oct. 31/42

Post by fcharton »

Hi SqzMyLemon,

If the unit is not totally destroyed by the shock attack, you're trading the hexside for the losses, which is probably a good deal here. Only problem is that if you vacate the hex, the enemy can take it back, and then march on Changsha. Personally, I would use armor to open the hexside (against the chinese, they stand a decent chance of surviving, even at very bad odds, and they move very fast), and then send it back AND reinforce the hex from Changsha... You'll have less troops in Changsha, but a better chance of finishing the defenders.

The enemy needs four days to move from Changteh to Changsha. Your armor can double back in two, you can reinforce in three, and once you hold the hexside, they need to push you away to advance and rescue Changsha, and you get the benefits of the defensive terrain...

Francois
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Trick or Treat?

Post by SqzMyLemon »

No treats for Allied forces today and unfortunately no Japanese tricks to punish them either. Maybe next year [:D]. Other than another day of heavy Ops losses it was a good day for the Empire.

Oct. 31/42 Update:

Sub Ops:

I'm still trying to coordinate air ASW with hunting ASW TF's to make things a little tougher on the Allied submarine service. Today my efforts paid off.

SS KIX spotted near Batavia at 45,98. No ASW Attack from SC Ch 22.
SS KVII is spotted near Shortlands by a surface ASW TF and is attacked. The E Kari scores with 2 direct DC hits and 4 near misses that further damage the submarine. The Dutch boat is forced to surface and a few 12.7 cm rounds finish her off. She does launch a torpedo attack before she slips beneath the waves, but all miss. Score one for Japanese ASW!

A note on my ASW efforts. I'm still frustrated as heck with my poor showing in enemy subs sunk. It looks like my tactics will eventually pay off though. I spot numerous enemy subs daily by air ASW and always vector in the surface ASW to try and get intercepts. I still use mainly SC's and DD's in this role, but the results have been poor. I'm now starting to deploy my E boats which have upgraded their DC capabilities, and I've noticed they are reacting and attacking enemy submarines much more effectively. I'll focus on getting these particular ships into the areas of greatest enemy submarine concentrations and hopefully they will have continued success.

Burma:

Ugh, a night airfield attack in partial cloud against Shwebo sees little to no damage done for the loss of five Sally's. The Sally's will get tomorrow off.

China:

I bomb the ground forces at Changteh to slow any potential movement against the 8th Recon Rgt. and the effort yields 0(1) non-combat squad losses totalling 5 casualties. Wasted effort as no movement S.E. was detected. They bomb Changsha tomorrow instead in preparation for the combined arms shock attack against the base by the 8th Recon Rgt. and the 1st Army. The 2nd Raiding Rgt. will airdrop on the base in conjunction with the ground assault. The current AV comparison is 2227 vs. 960 in my favour and the defenders are behind level two forts.

Other ground bombing mission's in China were ineffective.

Artillery units bombarded the Changsha defenders and inflicted 0(4) infantry and 1(1) non-combat squad losses totalling 45 casualties.

Artillery bombarded the defenders of Sining and caused the disablement of one Chinese non-combat squad. The AV comparison here is 946 vs. 767 in my favour, with Japanese reinforcements on the way. I will try and surround Sining as well to destroy the defenders.

A Shock attack by the 4th Ind. Mixed Rgt. at 75,52 located directly S.E. of Tuyun, forced the 62nd Chinese Corps to retreat into the base after losing 6 guns destroyed out of a possible 28 [8|]. I tried destroying this unit by air, but was not inflicting any damage. I had to rely on simply pushing them back with ground forces since the combat model is loath to destroy combat ineffective units at times.

Miscellaneous:

Port Moresby expands fortifications to size 1 (Yes, way too late to get started on this [:-])

DD Hatsuzuki arrives at Nagoya
DD Onami arrives at Maizuru (More DD's are always welcome)

Sasebo Ku S-1 arrives at Nagasaki/Sasebo (Sadly, a restricted Zero unit)

253 Ku S-1 converting to size 36 from 27
Sasebo Ku T-2 converting to size 18 from 12
582 Ku S-1 converting to size 27 from 12
582 Ku K-1 converting to size 18 from 12
25th Sentai converting to size 30 from 12 (Always nice to get more aircraft capacity!)

There are a few things that can go wrong at Changsha for my next attack. The 1st Army might attack prior to the 8th Recon's and force the defenders to retreat N.W. before the crucial hex side is closed. The 8th Recon attacks first, is wiped out and doesn't close the hex side. It could also all go according to plan and yet fail while suffering heavy losses with a bad roll against the level two forts.

The KI-43-IIa Oscar is now available and I was completely wrong about being able to upgrade some Nate units. The only units that can upgrade to the KI-43-IIa Oscar are already equipped with the Ki-43-Ic model [:@]. So no love until the Tony and Oscar IIb become available in early/mid 43. There are quite a few air units that can upgrade to the Ki-43-IIb, so production will need to be ramped up to get the maximum number of aircraft ASAP. I'd like to be producing at least 100/month when she comes online.

Musashi joins the fleet in 17 days and I get another CVL and CVE in 30+ days. I'd halted the Ryujo since she doesn't get an air complement until Nov. 43, but I definitely can use the transport capabilty for the Hawaiin operation so construction was restarted.

I decided to wait until the end of the month to update the Empire's situation. When I find the time I'll put something together.
Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)
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Strategic Musings

Post by SqzMyLemon »

I'm looking at how to bolster my overal defence Empire wide and I come across the Kuriles. Just how the heck do you get restricted units to these bases? The Kuriles are assigned to the 5th Fleet. That's fine, there are even a few LCU's assigned to the 5th Fleet that can be transported to the various islands, but the 5th Fleet has no assigned air component and that leaves the Kuriles extremely vulnerable. Just what is the trick to getting restricted air units to these islands? Do you change the islands from under 5th Fleet to General Defence or some other restricted HQ that has air units to spare? It seems pointless to add LCU's to 5th Fleet as that does not address the fact there are no unrestricted air units available to base here. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

A note on the Hawaiian operation. Nemo, a few post's ago, suggested I do not make any plans yet and ask questions to formulate my strategy. Having sat back and thought on things, I think my idea will be modified somewhat. Since the primary goal is to bring the Allied Fleet to battle and not at the expense of further weakening the Empire, it now seems that an isolation strategy may be the route to go. The amount of sheer AV it will take to capture Pearl Harbor at this stage is simply prohibitive. However, that doesn't mean I can't neutralize the value of Pearl Harbor and achieve more limited goals that could have the same impact.

Committing the majority of my available LCU strength in an effort to draw out the Allied Fleet is a mistake. If the Allies are going to react, I can still encourage that by invading the surrounding Hawaiian Islands with far less of a troop committment. Taking a few key bases on the way to Hawaii can also have the desired effect of drawing out the Allied Fleet. It's a question of ramping up the threat level to PH. I think a sudden landing doesn't achieve the desired intent on having the Allied Fleet race to it's defence. PH will be able to endure a long siege, be it from direct assault or isolation. KB cannot be tied to patrolling the theatre indefinitely in the hopes the Allied Fleet commits, and it is precisely for that reason that the Allies won't commit their fleet PRIOR to KB having to leave the theatre.

However, if I conduct a series of moves, each building upon the other that directly threatens the effectiveness of PH, I believe THAT will force the Allied player to commit his fleet or lose the use of PH. The longer the Allies delay a response, the greater the threat of isolating/capturing PH becomes. It's either react or give up on using that base as a means of attacking the Central Pacific, which helps to achieve my secondary goal of strengthening my defences whether the Allied Fleet reacts or not. I need to help steer the direction the Allied advance will come from. If the Allies already have no intention of advancing in the Central Pacific, that at least allows me to rule it out and prepare an adequate defence exactly where I need to.

It's late and I'll continue my thoughts later. I hope this makes some sense and I won't have to completely re-edit this post tomorrow upon reading it again. Hawaii is still the target, but how I intend to deal with it has changed. I believe I can achieve more with less in this case, I just have to be clear with myself what it is I wish to achieve. And that is to entice the Allied Fleet out to battle, but on my terms and in a way that I can realistically sustain at this stage of the war.
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RE: Trick or Treat?

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

Sub Ops:

I'm still trying to coordinate air ASW with hunting ASW TF's to make things a little tougher on the Allied submarine service. Today my efforts paid off.

A note on my ASW efforts. I'm still frustrated as heck with my poor showing in enemy subs sunk. It looks like my tactics will eventually pay off though. I spot numerous enemy subs daily by air ASW and always vector in the surface ASW to try and get intercepts. I still use mainly SC's and DD's in this role, but the results have been poor. I'm now starting to deploy my E boats which have upgraded their DC capabilities, and I've noticed they are reacting and attacking enemy submarines much more effectively. I'll focus on getting these particular ships into the areas of greatest enemy submarine concentrations and hopefully they will have continued success.
How do you organize your surface ASW forces?
Pax
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by Walker84 »

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm looking at how to bolster my overal defence Empire wide and I come across the Kuriles. Just how the heck do you get restricted units to these bases? The Kuriles are assigned to the 5th Fleet. That's fine, there are even a few LCU's assigned to the 5th Fleet that can be transported to the various islands, but the 5th Fleet has no assigned air component and that leaves the Kuriles extremely vulnerable. Just what is the trick to getting restricted air units to these islands? Do you change the islands from under 5th Fleet to General Defence or some other restricted HQ that has air units to spare? It seems pointless to add LCU's to 5th Fleet as that does not address the fact there are no unrestricted air units available to base here. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

In my own PBEM I have been forced to build up the Kuriles as my opponent has developed the Aleutians massively and started launching B-24 raids on Para-jima and the next island down the chain. My solution has been to transfer some of the Home Islands air units to 5th fleet HQ. Later on I believe the 5th fleet receives some dedicated air HQs but I can't afford to wait for these. I now have a full unit of Oscars plus Zeros in support. I am also developing the bases in case of amphibious invasion. There will be plenty of torpedo and land-based bombers to contend with if he decides to enter Tokyo's back yard.

For land units I have generally bought out to an unrestricted command such as Southern Army.

I did consider changing the Kuriles to General Defense but decided the other approach was more flexible. Other people may have different suggestions.

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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by Nemo121 »

Sqzy, Post 528 makes sense to me.

FWIW as far as ASW goes. I just make SC TFs and load them with ASW ships. With 12 ships you more than make up for any penalty due to not having the "right" mission set.
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Sqzy, Post 528 makes sense to me.

FWIW as far as ASW goes. I just make SC TFs and load them with ASW ships. With 12 ships you more than make up for any penalty due to not having the "right" mission set.
So, surface combat mission TF's will engage subs? I did not know that. Thanks for the tip.
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by Nemo121 »

Absolutely. There's less chance of them spotting the sub first which means that, generally, the SC TF gets shot at by the sub and then prosecutes the sub which attacked it. Since you are filling the SC TF with fast, manoeuvrable ships your loss rate isn't actually too bad at all. I've lost something like 5 Escorts and 2 DDs filling this role in my Armaggedon game but I've sunk at least 20 subs using them like this. That's a very favourable exchange ratio and has allowed me to re-open a crucial shipping lane by making it too expensive for subs to operate there.
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by PaxMondo »

How about mine sweeping TF's?  Will they prosecute subs?
 
Thanks!
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RE: Trick or Treat?

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

How do you organize your surface ASW forces?

Hi Pax,

Generally groups of two to four SC's or DD's in a TF. I'm not sure on the benefits of having four ships per TF as it's rare that more than one or two ever attack during a combat phase. With two ships per TF I hope to get more mileage covering more area and suppressing a wider swath of ocean. In my game experience so far, the two ship TF's have been no better or worse than my four ship ASW TF's. Hence the decision to have more two ship TF's.

With the dedicated escort ships (E's) having been upgraded to a ASW values of 4 they seem to be the ones reacting and getting in DC attacks that actually damage the enemy. Even my DD's or SC's with ASW values of 4 rarely hit anything if they attack. The experience of my E's are higher than the SC's but generally lower than the DD's.

A note on air ASW. As my bomber formations have gained ASW experience I'm getting a lot of reported "hits" on enemy submarines during the air search phases every turn, but how effective they are I have no clue.

I tend to stay away from Nemo's suggestion of larger SC TF's to hunt down subs simply because my surface ships do get hit by enemy torps far too often for my liking with no subsequent effective DC attack in return most times. I also just can't take away more DD's from my important fuel/oil TF's, I've lost very few tankers to date and I'd like to keep it that way. So far the enemy has not discovered my fuel routes nor been interdicting these particular TF's. I'd like to keep it that way! [:D]
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: Walker84

In my own PBEM I have been forced to build up the Kuriles as my opponent has developed the Aleutians massively and started launching B-24 raids on Para-jima and the next island down the chain. My solution has been to transfer some of the Home Islands air units to 5th fleet HQ. Later on I believe the 5th fleet receives some dedicated air HQs but I can't afford to wait for these. I now have a full unit of Oscars plus Zeros in support. I am also developing the bases in case of amphibious invasion. There will be plenty of torpedo and land-based bombers to contend with if he decides to enter Tokyo's back yard.

For land units I have generally bought out to an unrestricted command such as Southern Army.

I did consider changing the Kuriles to General Defense but decided the other approach was more flexible. Other people may have different suggestions.

I noticed the air HQ assigned to 5th Fleet as well, I believe it appears in May/43, but like you I don't want to wait until then. I'll figure something out. I do believe the Allies will test this theatre in 43 so I'd like to be more prepared. I'm still looking at whether to possibly change some of the Kuriles to General Defence HQ, but that might require too many PP's and it may be better to buy the units out and assign them, as you suggested, to an unrestricted HQ for more flexibility.
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by crsutton »

As an Allied player I can say that is is almost always a mistake to surround and destroy Chinese Infantry units. The key to taking China is to grind Chinese AV down. This is done by defeating and retreating Chinese units where they will take massive losses anyways. The design of the game and the critical supply situation facing China once Sian and Changsha fall means that Chinese units will almost never take replacments and rebuild. I pesonally believe this is a design flaw but there you have it. Destroyed units come back at 1/3 strength. For the average Chinese units that is generally better than the unit you just killed. So don't destroy them. BTW most Chinese HQ units are regenerated as well-not just infantry.
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

As an Allied player I can say that is is almost always a mistake to surround and destroy Chinese Infantry units. The key to taking China is to grind Chinese AV down. This is done by defeating and retreating Chinese units where they will take massive losses anyways. The design of the game and the critical supply situation facing China once Sian and Changsha fall means that Chinese units will almost never take replacments and rebuild. I pesonally believe this is a design flaw but there you have it. Destroyed units come back at 1/3 strength. For the average Chinese units that is generally better than the unit you just killed. So don't destroy them. BTW most Chinese HQ units are regenerated as well-not just infantry.

I completely understand your point crsutton and agree to a certain degree...in game terms. I've thought about my overall China strategy quite a bit, as it's been my most active theatre all game. Originally I was quite content to simply drive the Chinese before me, capturing their key economic bases and moving forward without the need to destroy them. However, I've come to the determination that a destroyed Chinese unit overall is a good thing.

For one, the VP's I collect can't be taken away, dead is dead. I'll lose so many VP's when I start losing bases to the Allied counter offensives that the losses I inflict on my opponent are important. I am certainly not going to let VP's determine my performance overall when all is said and done, I expect most games have an incredibly lopsided score once the Allies get rolling, but they are important to me in terms of what I've been able to accomplish in destroying enemy formations.

Second, I simply don't want my forces mired down in China simply pushing back small units or stacks back endlessly. My opponent utilizes the fact that China has so many expendable LCU's that can be used to disrupt behind the lines quite well. I simply won't allow my efforts to be harassed by this tactic, and allow a meaningless unit to achieve something out of all proportion to it's combat value.

Thirdly, the more Chinese units that respawn at Chungking the better, the farther away from anything of importance buys me time. I want to eventually shift units out of China for defence in the Pacific. The longer and harder the Chinese have to push me back the better, and destroying as many of them now lets me operate to my tune, not the enemies. For example, if I simply push back the defenders at Changsha, that's nine units still free to harass and block my path to Chungking. Yes, they'll be weak, but they still have much potential to harass my LOC's and cause me to have to garrison rear areas above the already substantial garrison requirements. It's also nine units that can still lend to the defence of Changteh, or which ever base I head to next for example. If I destroy these nine units now, I can advance with my entire force to achieve my goals and not have to continually bleed off my force in simply suppressing them.

I know it's a trade off. I destroy a unit I get the VP's and it is temporarily removed from the theatre which allows me to move forward. My opponent gains a fresh unit again in 30 days at 1/3 strength. Which is better? I don't know at this stage. To be honest, the decision to destroy the units is simply a play style I prefer. Looking back, other than small units my opponent has intentionally allowed to be destroyed, this will be the first pocket of Chinese troops I've actually cornered in almost a year of combat.

Perhaps this example might shed light on my reasoning and which simply doesn't take into consideration the implications in game terms. The Eastern Front, hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers forming partisan units behind the lines because they weren't captured or destroyed. How many German forces were removed from front line duty to deal with this threat? The numbers are probably comparable. How many troops were removed from the point of attack compromising offensive operations? The way I see it, I destroy these Chinese units now, I can then bring the full might of my forces against the next objective without having to detach a unit here or there to protect my LOC's. It all adds up. To me, having units sitting around simply containing the enemy is a complete mismanagement of my forces, troops sitting around not engaging the enemy are wasted and achieve absolutely nothing.

Also, in real life, what general didn't try and completely vanquish his foe, or complete an encirclement if given the chance? With the exception of such countries such as China and Russia, with seemingly endless manpower reserves, what other nation would have the benefit of hindsight to say when fighting them, "well, we better not destroy this enemy force, as they'll simply respawn in 30 days at 1/3 their original strength in their capital, so tell the troops to go easy on this bunch and leave them an escape route."

I understand it's a game and this is a consequence of destroying Chinese units, but I also look at it in terms of real life. The foe is before me...and I intend to do three things...crush my enemy, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentation of their women! Just like any real life commander would have attempted. [:D]
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by SqzMyLemon »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Sqzy, Post 528 makes sense to me.

Nemo, I'm glad to hear that. I definitely see the merit in your suggestion to step back and look at things objectively and not simply start making plans. As I remove ideas that don't stay on task or lend weight to the main objective, or that I just can't accomplish at this time, what's left starts to formulate the actual plan. There's much to still figure out, but I'm a step closer. I hope I can throw enough curveballs at my opponent to disrupt him and open up other potential opportunities, if this one is successful.
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RE: Strategic Musings

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
ORIGINAL: crsutton

As an Allied player I can say that is is almost always a mistake to surround and destroy Chinese Infantry units. The key to taking China is to grind Chinese AV down. This is done by defeating and retreating Chinese units where they will take massive losses anyways. The design of the game and the critical supply situation facing China once Sian and Changsha fall means that Chinese units will almost never take replacments and rebuild. I pesonally believe this is a design flaw but there you have it. Destroyed units come back at 1/3 strength. For the average Chinese units that is generally better than the unit you just killed. So don't destroy them. BTW most Chinese HQ units are regenerated as well-not just infantry.

I completely understand your point crsutton and agree to a certain degree...in game terms. I've thought about my overall China strategy quite a bit, as it's been my most active theatre all game. Originally I was quite content to simply drive the Chinese before me, capturing their key economic bases and moving forward without the need to destroy them. However, I've come to the determination that a destroyed Chinese unit overall is a good thing.

For one, the VP's I collect can't be taken away, dead is dead. I'll lose so many VP's when I start losing bases to the Allied counter offensives that the losses I inflict on my opponent are important. I am certainly not going to let VP's determine my performance overall when all is said and done, I expect most games have an incredibly lopsided score once the Allies get rolling, but they are important to me in terms of what I've been able to accomplish in destroying enemy formations.

Second, I simply don't want my forces mired down in China simply pushing back small units or stacks back endlessly. My opponent utilizes the fact that China has so many expendable LCU's that can be used to disrupt behind the lines quite well. I simply won't allow my efforts to be harassed by this tactic, and allow a meaningless unit to achieve something out of all proportion to it's combat value.

Thirdly, the more Chinese units that respawn at Chungking the better, the farther away from anything of importance buys me time. I want to eventually shift units out of China for defence in the Pacific. The longer and harder the Chinese have to push me back the better, and destroying as many of them now lets me operate to my tune, not the enemies. For example, if I simply push back the defenders at Changsha, that's nine units still free to harass and block my path to Chungking. Yes, they'll be weak, but they still have much potential to harass my LOC's and cause me to have to garrison rear areas above the already substantial garrison requirements. It's also nine units that can still lend to the defence of Changteh, or which ever base I head to next for example. If I destroy these nine units now, I can advance with my entire force to achieve my goals and not have to continually bleed off my force in simply suppressing them.

I know it's a trade off. I destroy a unit I get the VP's and it is temporarily removed from the theatre which allows me to move forward. My opponent gains a fresh unit again in 30 days at 1/3 strength. Which is better? I don't know at this stage. To be honest, the decision to destroy the units is simply a play style I prefer. Looking back, other than small units my opponent has intentionally allowed to be destroyed, this will be the first pocket of Chinese troops I've actually cornered in almost a year of combat.

Perhaps this example might shed light on my reasoning and which simply doesn't take into consideration the implications in game terms. The Eastern Front, hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers forming partisan units behind the lines because they weren't captured or destroyed. How many German forces were removed from front line duty to deal with this threat? The numbers are probably comparable. How many troops were removed from the point of attack compromising offensive operations? The way I see it, I destroy these Chinese units now, I can then bring the full might of my forces against the next objective without having to detach a unit here or there to protect my LOC's. It all adds up. To me, having units sitting around simply containing the enemy is a complete mismanagement of my forces, troops sitting around not engaging the enemy are wasted and achieve absolutely nothing.

Also, in real life, what general didn't try and completely vanquish his foe, or complete an encirclement if given the chance? With the exception of such countries such as China and Russia, with seemingly endless manpower reserves, what other nation would have the benefit of hindsight to say when fighting them, "well, we better not destroy this enemy force, as they'll simply respawn in 30 days at 1/3 their original strength in their capital, so tell the troops to go easy on this bunch and leave them an escape route."

I understand it's a game and this is a consequence of destroying Chinese units, but I also look at it in terms of real life. The foe is before me...and I intend to do three things...crush my enemy, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentation of their women! Just like any real life commander would have attempted. [:D]

I see your point. However, now I believe that given a full commitment, a Japanese player can actually go all the way and take China out of the war. I hate to say it, but it should be standard operating procedure for all Japanese players. I am no slouch when it comes to ground combat but my opponent Viperpol has shown me that it can be done and fairly easily. He never surrounds my units and is posed to take Chungking by the end of 1943. (1200 VP) I personally don't think it can be stopped the way the game is designed. There is one thing that might help. In one of the recent betas it was changed sot that players can now select cities for stockpiling supplies in. This city perhaps can be used to rebuild units and support an air force in China-but it is questionable that it is enough. Using tank units, it was amazingly simple for him to take out all of North China as well. Very demoralizing...

We are playing scen #2 but I think it can be done in scen #1 as well.
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