Bullwinkle, where art thou?

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, guys, but I think you are mistaking loquaciousness for competence.  I talk a good talk, and I talk alot, but I am not in the same ballpark as the upper crusties.

[Chickenboy]

Could be that those requesters appreciate your erudite ways, herr Rebel. In a winsome sort of way.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

This isn't an attack on any people in particular but, rather, a pointing out that people need to accept personal responsibility. If you've seen unreasonable attacks and haven't stepped in to stop them then you are, partially, responsible. I've heard from many people who decry some of the behaviour on here but say they won't say so publicly because they don't want to get attacked themselves. I respect their choice but, by the same token, because they don't stand up it makes it more likely those attacks continue and the forum degenerates until only those who are "approved of" are allowed to have a voice.

This is an interesting question. To what extent can pressure from multiple forum members change certain members borish behavior? The anonimity or just simply separation afforded by electronic media such as the forum generally allows people to behave to others in ways they would not do face-to-face. Will that behavoir be modified if more members take the time (and it does take time) to point out when it is not acceptable? I am sure there is research into online bullying, but I am not sure what it concludes can be done by other online participants without personal knowledge of those involved. Most appears to focus on what parents and teachers of students subject to online bullying can do.

That being said, Nemo is almost certainly right that if we don't make the effort to stand up to it, we will get the forum we deserve.

[ilovestrategy]

Ive been here for over six years now. I dabble in WiTP but never really became a big time player. I stay here and read these forums because this and the Lord of the Rings Online(my main game) are the two best articulate forums I've run across.

Some folks here say the conduct has gotten worst and I have to disagree. Ever since Japan and that Mark guy left things actually seem better. Things get ugly in the general discussion forum when a new movie comes out and someone says they like it. They tend to get jumped on like there is no tomorrow.

One thing I have to say though is that the standard of English here is pretty high and you guys have sent me running to my dictionary more than once. I say this forum is better behaved than before, not worst.

Well, I better mosey on to the Storm over the Pacific forum. After several months of playing, I finally invaded Japan, took all the cities and the game freezes on next turn. Doomtrader must be sick of me by now. [8|]

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Sorry to hear of this regarding Bullwinkle, I enjoyed his posts and he always seemed ready to lend advice to someone having issues or a newbie.

> Could not agree more, Moose has generously helped me on more than one occasion.

I hope time heals wounds and he'll be back soon and congratulations on the wedding , shipmate!

> Ditto, the congratulations, Moose! There is nothing like having a good woman in one's life, and you have a keeper!

Well, now that I've been outed by my good, upside-down friend, Alfred, how can I refuse to ack a wedding wish? [:)]

I've never had a thread about lil' ole me. Sniff. [:'(]

What Alfred relates is largely correct. I don't believe I've posted since an unpleasant interchange over HR theory in which I was stiff-armed on the "you only play the AI" plank. I've read a good bit--less than I used to--but I've played more in the time saved. (Also gotten into more resource-demanding games since I've gotten the Super-PC named Gus in the house. "Fallout: New Vegas" fully-modded is a lot of fun with all the bells on.)

> Moose, this is very good news. My awesome wife bought me a new computer last October; Fallout: New Vegas was the 2nd game installed - right after AE (of course!). I will most definitely, if I may, PM and seek your counsel and advice when ready to play.

I've also had some long, interesting interchanges with Alfred. Any here who don't carefully consider his advice would be unwise. I've yet to find a topic where his learning is not both deeper and wider than my own, including the administration of Millard Fillmore!! (I couldn't even name the CURRENT Aussie PM until helped by him.)

> With my usual B.S. meter turned off: The above is absolutely true. While there are a number of posters whose threads I will usually save to disk, Alfred is on the "must save" list for this forum. In particular I value and appreciate his (to me) very exact, detailed and step by step explanation of whatever aspect of AE he is commenting on - from fortifications to air search; but, particularly his numerous posts regarding pilot management - in all of it's many interconnected aspects. It has taken me multiple readings, however I finally feel I have at least a good grasp of the basics. I am in your debt, Sir.

If I may wax philosophical for a moment, I see the forum changing, and, if I may say so, balkanizing as the game enters its mid-life. The second (third?) large wave of newbies is meeting advice fatigue, and, if I may further suggest, failing in large part to read the manual or resources available here before asking for help. Players are increasingly splitting into their camps, not only PBEM/AI, but the various Babes groups, the heavy modders, Threadsters, the exclusive AAR writers and/or readers, the beta testers, and so on. I've seen this happen in other forums over time; it's natural. But a lot of the early, free-wheeling topicitis is over, and a lot of that was what I loved. We've beateen the big toipics to death: ASW, CAP, CD gunnery, supply movement, flak, stacking. This is not to say that these oldie goldies aren't still discussed, but unfortunately often when they are the fangs come out. The forum is a lot meaner than it used to be. My personal green-button list is nearing a dozen. A lot of old-timers have gone or gone quiet, and others have, as I said, balkanized into lodges.

> While I love the detail and depth of the historical aspect of Babes, and have played several other mods, my appreciation for the whole range of AE variants has grown. My line of thought is that each mod or varient has it's appeal, and that I will make a concious decision to enjoy whatever varient that I am lead to play. If I can learn to manage my air units with scarce Aviation Support (Babes), then, when playing a stock or another mod where Aviation Support is more generous, I will be able to do more, and enjoy it. This appreciation and line of thought has taken time to mature. I appreciate your above thoughts, perspective and comments Moose, I shall strive to keep an open mind - and maintain my respect for other opinions and views.

One thing which I think could help (but I don't have a solution for) is if more, or almost any, games could get to 1944. I've been playing late-war in my Scen 2 game for several months, and am in 1/45 as Allies. I've tried the Downfall scenario, and it's nice, but very different than a late game you've engineered and enter with whatever forces you've managed to maintain, where-is, as-is. It's really a different game than the first two years, massively "picky and clicky" as the housekeeping is overwhelminmg, but it's also a lot of fun for an Allied player to finally have everything he needs to attack on many fronts at once. I have four or five major sieges going, and am hopping across over a dozen islands every week. I have B-29s at the two bases on Sakhalin Island and am experimenting with large-scale strat bombing for the first time. To that though I also early-activated the kami code, and multi-engine kamis by the, literally, thousands have been whacking at everything that moves for a year. The carnage has been brutal. I wish some mainline AARs could get to this era. Reading, and re-reading, playing and re-playing, the same old first-year moves is another reason I pulled back. I know the AI scripts aren't written, but I wish some good PBEM players--or a lot of them [;)]--would start Nik's May 1942 scenario on 2-day turns. I'd read that one.

So, anyway, I'm alive. Happily married. Still playing. Still reading, most days, at least for a few minutes. I'm touched that folks miss me; I never thought I had that much to offer outside of some submarine knowledge and general "been there" on the USN, which is not uncommon around these parts. I would urge the regulars who value this forum's health, however, to examine their participation, choose battles carefully, tone down the venom, gently guide newbies while encouraging self-study, and get some games to the later phases when the fur really flies.

> Moose, am so pleased that you are alive and well, and posting again. The forum is not the same without you..<grin>

Oh, Rocky sez "hi". Whatsamatta U. plays Bemidji State Normal School for Girls on Saturday. Bring your raccoon coat and ukulele. [8D]

Mac

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy
One thing I have to say though is that the standard of English here is pretty high and you guys have sent me running to my dictionary more than once. I say this forum is better behaved than before, not worse.

Fixed that for you. [;)]

[zuluhour]

Does that mean I'm a lower crusty or crusty lower?[:D]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Ive been here for over six years now. I dabble in WiTP but never really became a big time player. I stay here and read these forums because this and the Lord of the Rings Online(my main game) are the two best articulate forums I've run across.

Some folks here say the conduct has gotten worst and I have to disagree. Ever since Japan and that Mark guy left things actually seem better. Things get ugly in the general discussion forum when a new movie comes out and someone says they like it. They tend to get jumped on like there is no tomorrow.

One thing I have to say though is that the standard of English here is pretty high and you guys have sent me running to my dictionary more than once. I say this forum is better behaved than before, not worst.

Well, I better mosey on to the Storm over the Pacific forum. After several months of playing, I finally invaded Japan, took all the cities and the game freezes on next turn. Doomtrader must be sick of me by now. [8|]

Well to be honest, can you really expect to get a bunch of alpha personalities together and not have the occasional heated disagreement? [:D]

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well to be honest, can you really expect to get a bunch of alpha personalities together and not have the occasional heated disagreement? [:D]

I think that we are just big spoilt boys sometimes, with the ability to communicates our misconceptions... well I know I am anyway.

[thegreatwent]

It is also easier to be rude when there is little chance you'll get punched in the face[:)]

[SuluSea]

This forum and the members are a great place to congregate and talk history or our favorite game. Are there cliques? Sure, but I wouldn't say they are formed with mean spirited intentions, more like a group of people that have gotten to know each other over the course of many years and feel comfortable with each other. Cliques can be found hanging out in 'the thread', certain AARs, building mods together or a whole list of others, none of them are formed to gang up on other members or squash opinions. This is a great time to be a fan of wargames and the Pacific War, relax and enjoy.

Again this is a great forum and it's better than it's ever been.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

It is also easier to be rude when there is little chance you'll get punched in the face[:)]

I believe this is the heart of the matter.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

This forum and the members are a great place to congregate and talk history or our favorite game. Are there cliques? Sure, but I wouldn't say they are formed with mean spirited intentions, more like a group of people that have gotten to know each other over the course of many years and feel comfortable with each other. Cliques can be found hanging out in 'the thread', certain AARs, building mods together or a whole list of others, none of them are formed to gang up on other members or squash opinions. This is a great time to be a fan of wargames and the Pacific War, relax and enjoy.

Again this is a great forum and it's better than it's ever been.

We need a bloodhound to track down these cliques. A canine with a nose for discovery.[:D]

Alfred

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Ive been here for over six years now. I dabble in WiTP but never really became a big time player. I stay here and read these forums because this and the Lord of the Rings Online(my main game) are the two best articulate forums I've run across.

Some folks here say the conduct has gotten worst and I have to disagree. Ever since Japan and that Mark guy left things actually seem better. Things get ugly in the general discussion forum when a new movie comes out and someone says they like it. They tend to get jumped on like there is no tomorrow.

One thing I have to say though is that the standard of English here is pretty high and you guys have sent me running to my dictionary more than once. I say this forum is better behaved than before, not worst.

Well, I better mosey on to the Storm over the Pacific forum. After several months of playing, I finally invaded Japan, took all the cities and the game freezes on next turn. Doomtrader must be sick of me by now. [8|]

Well to be honest, can you really expect to get a bunch of alpha personalities together and not have the occasional heated disagreement? [:D]

And we are a bunch of alpha personalities, there's no argument there! Still, I bet our wives would pick a more unflattering term to describe the bunch of us. [:D]

[CaptDave]

I'd like to expand on one of the points the Moose brought up.&nbsp; It does seem to me that folks on the forum can be extremely quick to jump on someone asking a question that has appeared several times before.

Having done my penance working in Tech Support, I understand the frustration with having to answer the same basic question seemingly once every hour.&nbsp; On the other hand, I also see the point of view of the novice.&nbsp; It's hard to rely on RTFM when so many threads are pointing out the inaccuracies therein!

I agree with the concept of searching for a topic first, but let's face some facts.&nbsp; First, the basic search function in this forum doesn't always work.&nbsp; There are workarounds, but is it fair to expect a newcomer to know about them?&nbsp; Or do we expect them to somehow know about the problems and the fixes, or to search on the topic of search problems (and have the same trouble finding anything as they do with their real searches)?

Second, search is an iffy proposition even when it works.&nbsp; If you don't know enough detail to narrow your search down, getting 12,948 hits is no help at all.&nbsp; The whole point of the forum is so we can all help each other and have more time to play the game, not spend three days trying to figure out the right match of search terms to get a question answered.

Finally, I would suggest that the Wiki is the most underused tool we have.&nbsp; Many of the conversations going on in the forum would be good topics to be included there, but somehow nobody ever wants to do so.&nbsp; I'll admit that I'm not exactly a prolific poster to the Wiki, myself, but I'd estimate I've posted more than over 99% of the folks on the forum (all that means is that I've actually posted something; how much beyond zero doesn't matter).&nbsp; Due to the lack of participation, though, I'm reluctant to post anything I'm not at least 99.44% sure of because once it's posted someone will take it as absolute fact while no one with better knowledge is correcting my mistakes.

In a nutshell, this is a plea for everyone to be patient with the questions on the forum.&nbsp; They're all reasonable (well, there might be an occasional exception).&nbsp; Remember you were a newbie once, too!

[Lecivius]

I have yet to get my nose bent here by folks.&nbsp; Except in my 1st PBEM, where I went through the&nbsp;allied first&nbsp;6 months like a cottonwood branch through an exremely high powered&nbsp;woodchipper.&nbsp; But I do heed that we must police ourselves.
&nbsp;
I do hope the moose ( and anyone else for that matter), gets a breather, and comes back.&nbsp; I have been around these, and other, game forums a long while.&nbsp; This place is by far the best.&nbsp; Some of the discussions get heated, but it is a game when all is said & done.

[CaptBeefheart]

To me the people on this forum are quite well tempered and good natured, with very few exceptions. I haven't seen this AI vs. PBEM thing, but certainly AI players can give perfectly good advice on game mechanics. I'd like to think I've helped GreyJoy out a couple of times on some key things, not to mention much wiser AI players such as our esteemed resident moose. The PBEM guys make their own excellent contributions when it comes to reading opponent intentions, throwing the opponent off-balance and the like (that said, I've seen some excellent strategic advice come from Bullwinkle and other AI players as well). In short, I think all of us can contribute to this forum whether we play against bits and bytes or real people--we just bring different insights to the table.

I also don't see newbies getting slammed for "stupid" questions like I've seen on other fora--which to me speaks quite highly of the commentariat here.

Cheers,
CC

[DD696]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

This isn't an attack on any people in particular but, rather, a pointing out that people need to accept personal responsibility. If you've seen unreasonable attacks and haven't stepped in to stop them then you are, partially, responsible. I've heard from many people who decry some of the behaviour on here but say they won't say so publicly because they don't want to get attacked themselves. I respect their choice but, by the same token, because they don't stand up it makes it more likely those attacks continue and the forum degenerates until only those who are "approved of" are allowed to have a voice.

This is an interesting question. To what extent can pressure from multiple forum members change certain members borish behavior? The anonimity or just simply separation afforded by electronic media such as the forum generally allows people to behave to others in ways they would not do face-to-face. Will that behavoir be modified if more members take the time (and it does take time) to point out when it is not acceptable? I am sure there is research into online bullying, but I am not sure what it concludes can be done by other online participants without personal knowledge of those involved. Most appears to focus on what parents and teachers of students subject to online bullying can do.

That being said, Nemo is almost certainly right that if we don't make the effort to stand up to it, we will get the forum we deserve.

I have to say that I consider all of the above to be quite true. Long ago I gave up being an active poster because of the bullying attitude of various members and the absolute willingness of moderators and Matrix to, by their actions, if not actively tolerate it, then to by their inaction (and the actions of forum members) to condone it.

I attempted to stand up for AI players back in the WitP days and the problems they dealt with to include the outright hostility they faced. I tried to make an effort to ensure that the AI player was not forgotten in the rush to get the PBEM player's wet dream out the door when AE was announced (reference an early thread entitled "An AI Player's AE Concerns"). All the bigwigs on the team eventually assured me that they all were on the AI players side. I am still waiting for evidence of that and have seen little which indicates that there was very much honesty in those statements. I gave up and mainly just read the forums in a "guest" status these days.

However, the words above somewhat shame me into thinking that I was wrong to leave and to give up the fight to see that a player who plays against the AI deserves as much of a fair shake at the game as does the PBEM player. So I'm back, and still going to carry on the fight to see that the AI player is not simply someone to take the money from and run.

[HansBolter]

As an AI player I gave up a while ago getting involed in threads with the rabid PBEM coterie although they usually can't avoid raiding AI threads so it's impossible to avoid them altogether.

However, I get hostility even from other AI players like the moose. Somewhat like the terminoid I bring it upon myself. I mostly limit myself these days to providing answers on technical questions while avoiding commentary that would inflame others toward me.

I do, though believe your are at least somewhat mistaken regarding the devs and the AI players. I have provided quite a bit of feedback on the Ironman scenario and the devs have made a great effort to improve it.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: thegreatwent

It is also easier to be rude when there is little chance you'll get punched in the face[:)]

Very, very true.