Explain to me how H2H point costs are fair

SPWaW is a tactical squad-level World War II game on single platoon or up to an entire battalion through Europe and the Pacific (1939 to 1945).

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Redleg
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Post by Redleg »

I think there are too many variables to say that a certain number of points for each side is "even". It depends on many factors such as Vis, terrain, nature of the battle, location of v-hexes, etc.

Next, the somewhat startling "National Characteristics" kicks in. As far as I can tell, these characteristics alter every thing in a secretive way that so far remain a mystery to me.

After one gets past all of that, the issue of other things such as what is agreed upon in the way of ground rules enters the picture.

All of the preoccupation with points seems to assume that there is some reality in the price structure and national characteristics. If you believe that, I have some land behind the house for sale. ;)

It is easy to change the settings but it seems that very few people seem to bother. I just don't get it. But I am trying to understand.
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tracer
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Post by tracer »

I know I'm in the minority here, but I agree with Mogami that many are underestimating the value that 'country characteristics' and experience adds to German units in SPWAW. Maybe its just my style of play, but the current pricing structure (with all preferences at default) seems very balanced.
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tracer
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Post by tracer »

Originally posted by rbrunsman
Panzerfausts still suck in my short experience. How do the Panzerschreks do?


Better kick than an M9, but (big but!) they don't come with HE ammo so they can't fire at infantry. I'm playing a PBEM set in 1949 right now and panzerschreks are an option for U.S. troops...what's notable is that they cost more than M9's.
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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

All my griping could just be growing pains of course. I know the units so well in v7.1 that I can mostly glance at the units and make valid comparisons. H2H is so new and different to me that it is like learning to play all over again. I mean, I don't have the comfort level established to know that my choices/decisions are good ones.

I'll surely give it more time to sink in.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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Goblin
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Post by Goblin »

Originally posted by tracer
I know I'm in the minority here, but I agree with Mogami that many are underestimating the value that 'country characteristics' and experience adds to German units in SPWAW. Maybe its just my style of play, but the current pricing structure (with all preferences at default) seems very balanced.


As I have stated before, I have now played alot of games as and against the Germans in H2H. The experience means squat. A 5 point experience difference is a huge price break for the Allied nations, and no decrease in effectiveness. The country characteristics do not appear to do much. I think the pricing problem began when the nation stats were readjusted.

I fought alot of battles as the Germans in 7.1, and they usually were very close and fun matches. Now they are not. There must be something that changed. I feel a bit insulted that Mogami suggests that people who like to play the Germans enjoy having some sort of advantage. If played in 7.1, they do not have one. If played in H2H, they most certainly do not have one!

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rbrunsman
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Post by rbrunsman »

Tracer, it could be the quality of your opponents that leads you to believe the current H2H system is fair. I would surley like to see the DAR of you (GE) fighting VikingNo2 (US) in a 5000 point meeting engagement on a small map. If you give VikingNo2 a run for his money then I will start looking at my own play style, but I think I'm pretty good myself (in v7.1 anyway).

The only country characteristic that is very noticeable to me is the Russian tendency to switch to ready status from routed if you aren't careful about shooting at them.
Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom
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mogami
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Sorry Goblin

Post by mogami »

Hi, Goblin I would never try to insult you. I might have poked too much fun. I have a hard time telling the serious threads from the ones we can joke in. To make it up to you. When I get 7.1 and H2H from Jess I'll let you take any allied country you want with 5k points in head to head. I'll take the poor Germans with 3.5k
You'll feel better after beating the snot out me and I'll get a chance to see for myself.
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Goblin
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Post by Goblin »

Lol,

That's ok, Mogs, I know your intentions were not sinister, lol. Remember, you took the French against my Germans once. Anyone who does that, and maintains his composure during it, gets 10 free 'forgives', lol.

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mogami
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rematch?

Post by mogami »

Hi, OK you can teach me head to head. My 3.5k French versus your 5k Germans May 1940. But you must post all your comments in German and I must post all mine in French

Ne soyez pas un ver comme le chien lâche de porc
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tracer
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Post by tracer »

Originally posted by rbrunsman
Tracer, it could be the quality of your opponents that leads you to believe the current H2H system is fair. I would surley like to see the DAR of you (GE) fighting VikingNo2 (US) in a 5000 point meeting engagement on a small map. If you give VikingNo2 a run for his money then I will start looking at my own play style, but I think I'm pretty good myself (in v7.1 anyway).

The only country characteristic that is very noticeable to me is the Russian tendency to switch to ready status from routed if you aren't careful about shooting at them.


I'm simply offering my observations; if something needs to be fixed I'm as keen as everyone else to get it done. But anyone seeking an answer to a problem should get all the info they can, even conflicting data, to arrive at an honest solution.
My 'style of play' comment was meant to be deprecating...as in "maybe I'm missing something".

I've started a couple battles against VikingNo2 but under v7.1, both times as the German player. Unfortunately they ended prematurely (once due to an OOB error and then a crashed hard drive); we have a third scheduled...Greg? In the interest of science? :D

The only change I'd suggest is making it GE vs SO; the US has a few 'training wheels' that may skew the results (bazookas and the persisent 'fast arty' bug). I'm not looking for a "told you so!" outcome; if there is a discrepancy I want to know about it.
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Orzel Bialy
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Oh oh...here it comes...

Post by Orzel Bialy »

Mon ami Goblin, vous avez été insultés! :eek: lol

or

Mein Freund Goblin, wurden Sie beleidigt! :p
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tracer
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Post by tracer »

Orzel: Why do I get the feeling that you're sitting back with a bucket of popcorn? :D
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Orzel Bialy
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Who me???

Post by Orzel Bialy »

:D

I'm just letting Goblin know that he's been challenged...that's all.

Now where is that melted butter and salt? :p
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mogami
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Pop Corn?

Post by mogami »

Beurre? Sel? On n'emploie pas ces derniers en mangeant du fromage

Sie essen an der großwienner Hütte
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Orzel Bialy
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Eating Cheese???

Post by Orzel Bialy »

Qui a indiqué quelque chose au sujet de manger du fromage?

Assez de crapola, de défi Goblin à un duel et écrivez en anglais! :p


ps.... aus mit Ihnen rascal! :D
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mogami
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Pig Latin

Post by mogami »

Ihay, I'dway ovelay otay ayplay Oblingay HAY2HAY. Ehay earsway
ishay underwearway onway ishay eadhay andway ashay oatgay
oofshay insteadway ofway eetfay.
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tracer
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Post by tracer »

Originally posted by Goblin
The country characteristics do not appear to do much.


I'd have to say I disagree G. As many have mentioned, there's some intangible buried in the code that gives this setting some weight. And no, I can't prove it :D
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Post by Goblin »

I didn't say that they do nothing, I said that they appear to do nothing. The Germans still get swarmed under...

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tracer
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Post by tracer »

This is unintentionally deteriorating into a pissing contest (maxima mea culpa!); let's get it back on track and into the spirit of this productive discussion board.

Here's a couple of reasons why I feel the higher experience rating, and possibly the country characteristics, of the German forces justifies their cost.

-GE's resistance to suppression and ability to rally (compared to the SO) gives each unit a higher chance of being available and combat effective. I believe this is worth extra points on the price tag. If you wipe out a lone SO crewman every unit within 2-3 hexes sustains suppression, and we all know how the change from 0 to 1 suppression affects a unit's performance.

-GE troops higher chance to op-fire, even if they're retreating/routed. Has anyone ever passed up an 'iffy' shot on a fleeing Tiger because they all but expected it fire back...and at a higher hit %? When you see a crew abandon an undamaged tank, how often are they wearing black uniforms?...I know we all have the same page in our personal tactics book: 'how to defeat a KV in 1941'. :D

I'm saying this without any rancor or sarcasm: tell me some specifics! I'll look for them in ongoing games or test them out; if I see them I'll thunk my forehead and say "$hit, how'd I miss that!". Since I first saw this mentioned in another thread I've been trying to see it. Yes, I feel some Allied units a underpriced ...many in fact, but I still don't see the need for wholesale revision. If you feel its not worth your effort I'll accept that too.
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Goblin
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Post by Goblin »

tracer,

No one is arguing that the higher experience German units shouldn't cost more! True Troop ON, however, adjusts for the experience, morale, etc of a given unit, raising or lowering the prices with the stats.

The problem right now is that the German stuff is so much more expensive, at the listed encyclopedia cost. Compare the encyclopedia prices. These are for units of the exact same experience value. These prices are what the comp adjusts from .

Now the Soviet, American, etc equipment costs alot less before adjustment by True Troop. After adjustment, the pricing imbalance is huge (especially if the T34 or M4 are considered, they get a discount on these tanks). In '44, ten T34/85's cost just 690! Ten PIVj's cost 1040, and the experience difference means squat. Multiply that out over a 5000 point game, and you will see what I mean.

The Soviet player can buy an infantry company to suppliment his tanks for the same price.

We are pointing out that the German player appears to be penalized TWICE for units. Once by base pricing, because they are more experienced units (the base pricing is for the same experience regardless of nationality though), and once by True Troop.

In contrast, the Allies have lower pricing at the base level, get a massive discount by True Troop (Leo even admitted that it was large), and then get a price break for their most common tanks. Their experience differs by only 5 in 1944, so there is no difference in performance.

I believe someone thought that US and Soviet units were not as good as German units experience wise, and set their prices lower, forgetting that True Troop already does this. Then, when Leo adjusted all national stats, it made it worse (because of the experience differences for each country), especially combined with the pricing breaks.

Hope I explained it better than we have so far.:)

Goblin
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