41-45 GC (Enhanced SW Front)

[Q-Ball]

I like this effort, I would like to see more "what if" kind of mods and test them.

I personally think that the overall German tempo is a bit high, but I don't have a big problem myself with the Lvov pocket, even playing as Russian.

The big problems for the Germans are all tank units on Reserve turn 1 (lots of reserve commits), and the fact that most of the Infantry is frozen on Turn 1.

I did a H2H against myself, with FOW off, to test it.

I did manage to cut the rails into Lvov, but it turned out that wasn't important, as everyone made it out.

A good start, though I think the Soviets are a bit too strong now. I didn't see in the notes why 7th Motorized is a Guards Division.

That Mech Corps around Kovel should be moved if it wasn't there historically, and moving it toward Rovno helps the Reds in general, though doesn't do much for the "Lvov pocket".

It seems like other units were specifically moved to prevent a "Lvov Pocket". If we're going to do that, just put a Rifle Division in Tarnopol, that would go a long way to preventing a breakout.

[BletchleyGeek]

Thank you for testing, Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
I did manage to cut the rails into Lvov, but it turned out that wasn't important, as everyone made it out.

Hmmm, those units should be frozen until Turn 2. I need to check that on the editor.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
A good start, though I think the Soviets are a bit too strong now. I didn't see in the notes why 7th Motorized is a Guards Division.

I read several accounts of it being regarded a status similar to that of later war Guards units. But I think I'll drop that, having it with a high morale and experienced ground elements will suffice.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
That Mech Corps around Kovel should be moved if it wasn't there historically, and moving it toward Rovno helps the Reds in general, though doesn't do much for the "Lvov pocket".

It seems like other units were specifically moved to prevent a "Lvov Pocket". If we're going to do that, just put a Rifle Division in Tarnopol, that would go a long way to preventing a breakout.

Note that the Mech Corps disposition is that they historicall had - more or less - in the 36 hours right off Barbarossa start. The goal is not as much as "enhancing" too much the Red Army, but giving it a fighting chance. Making the Lvov opening to be less than an "automatic" (or highly probable) success, and just make it "possible". I'm currently looking at T-28A scenario to see if I am able to capture into WitE mechanics the spirit of the fight there (btw, AWESOME scenario T-28, just AWESOME).

Seems you enjoyed the Reserves being committed Spoiling attacks here and there might reduce its effect, but since it's chance based it's not like anyone can just game that to soak all reserve units MP's. I feel Reserve mode isn't as often used as it should, but when you get it right, well, the feeling of the operations certainly "improves".

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I found 'The Bloody Triangle: The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 by Victor Kamenir' very informative, although it only covers the first week, or so, it does so in great detail, including the fortunes of the 8th Mech.[:)]

I must admit I focused on the first half of the book. Can you remember - from the top of your head - where was Kamenir getting the account of 8th Mech Corps? On the situation maps 8th Mech Corps for the first four days - Turn 1 in WitE - I couldn't find it.

I don't know if you still need this, but a quick scan of Bloody Triangle gives these sources for 8 Mech. Corps.

Commander 8th Mechanised Corps, Lt. Col. Dimitry Ryabyshev - The First Year of the War, Moscow, Military Publishing. 1990 E-Book - www.mechcorps.rkka.ru, Russian Language site.

Political Deputy, 8th. Mech. Corps, Brigade Commander, Nikolai Popel - During Difficult Times, Moscow, AST Publishing 2001, Russian Language

Google translate did not work on the website, so I cannot confirm the source, but at least the author is quoting seeming valid sources. There may be more, but I have not tied it up with the text yet.[:)]

[T-28A]

Ryabyshev:

Popel:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Google translate did not work on the website, so I cannot confirm the source, but at least the author is quoting seeming valid sources.

http://mechcorps.rkka.ru is the most comprehensive and deep online source on Soviet mechanized troops creation, buildup in 1930s-1941 and specifically on mech corps structure, personnel and actions in summer-autumn 1941.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: T-28A
http://mechcorps.rkka.ru is the most comprehensive and deep online source on Soviet mechanized troops creation, buildup in 1930s-1941 and specifically on mech corps structure, personnel and actions in summer-autumn 1941.

Ack, Google Translate not working on that site is a MAJOR bummer Either I get a express course on Russian - which seems to me to be a beautiful language by the way - or I cajole someone into dig that for me

[Rasputitsa]

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.[:)]

For instance, what does it mean for Soviet unit MPs, where he describes Mechanised units as not receiving their allocation of trucks and the men having to carry their heavy equipment and follow the AFVs on foot. This was worse than the infantry units, who at least had horse drawn wagons to carry their equipment. Tank columns having to stop every 15 mins, on the march, to make running repairs to keep the vehicles operational.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front. [:)]

And do you think that the stock GC is an adequate portrayal of that? Do you think that this scenario - although still in a very early design phase - is on the right track? I'd like to hear opinions

EDIT: Actually, the question is: If the stock GC doesn't offer a reasonably accurate account of that critical first week, what can be done as a scenario designer - bound by game mechanics - to enhance that account?

[Rasputitsa]

Just added an edit to earlier post, but not sure how to handle this in the game. The Soviets are already going to have tough time in the early turns, the content of the book makes it easier to understand why this should be, but will anyone buy that Mech. Corps might have less MPs than infantry units. The TOE/OOBs may reflect the allocation of vehicles, but does it show what the units actually received, before 22nd July 1941.

I would be good to have some Russian language confirmation of the sources, before using it as the basis for a major scenario change.[:)]

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.[:)]

For instance, what does it mean for Soviet unit MPs, where he describes Mechanised units as not receiving their allocation of trucks and the men having to carry their heavy equipment and follow the AFVs on foot. This was worse than the infantry units, who at least had horse drawn wagons to carry their equipment. Tank columns having to stop every 15 mins, on the march, to make running repairs to keep the vehicles operational.

Just noticed you edited the post.

Good question regarding the MP's. My point - and I think I've reasonably modeled it well on this scenario - is that they weren't critical to get key units into position to contest the German advance. Hence I redeployed Mech Corps to the positions I think they were just 24 - 36 hours after Barbarossa and set their MP's to max. Note that Vehicle allowances have been tweaked as well - generally for the worse, much worse - and while they get into combat, they're bound to suffer the same kind of horrific losses they suffered historically.

I mean, the point is not that the AGS is stopped cold but rather than it faces a substantial opposition during the first Axis turn. Putting these corps into reserve mode and maxing out MP's seemed to me to be the simplest way to have them to react to the phasing Axis player in a meaningful way. Just having the Axis player to get honest and forgo Hasty attacks - which might lure one or more Motorized units to the fray - and "invite" him to prefer Deliberate would slow down considerably Axis progress during Turn 1.

[BletchleyGeek]

On a another front, I'm thinking that rather than Freezing the whole of 17. Armee and two 6. Armee Korps, it would perhaps be a better idea to reduce their MP allowance on Turn 1. I'm still looking forward to D. Stahel book to get more info on the actions of those German formations, which I don't think are mentioned on Kamenir's "The Bloody Triangle". I've yet to finish the book by the way, I'm pretty much swamped at the moment [:(]

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

These two men were the senior commanders of 8th Mech. Corps and it would be very interesting to see what these original sources had to say. If you trust the content of 'Bloody Triangle', it certainly gives an excellent description of conditions and actions of both sides, during this critical battle, on a critical sector. I found it a very illuminating read, with lots of detail on, what is in effect, the first two turns of WiTE on the Southwestern Front.[:)]

For instance, what does it mean for Soviet unit MPs, where he describes Mechanised units as not receiving their allocation of trucks and the men having to carry their heavy equipment and follow the AFVs on foot. This was worse than the infantry units, who at least had horse drawn wagons to carry their equipment. Tank columns having to stop every 15 mins, on the march, to make running repairs to keep the vehicles operational.

Just noticed you edited the post.

Good question regarding the MP's. My point - and I think I've reasonably modeled it well on this scenario - is that they weren't critical to get key units into position to contest the German advance. Hence I redeployed Mech Corps to the positions I think they were just 24 - 36 hours after Barbarossa and set their MP's to max. Note that Vehicle allowances have been tweaked as well - generally for the worse, much worse - and while they get into combat, they're bound to suffer the same kind of horrific losses they suffered historically.

I mean, the point is not that the AGS is stopped cold but rather than it faces a substantial opposition during the first Axis turn. Putting these corps into reserve mode and maxing out MP's seemed to me to be the simplest way to have them to react to the phasing Axis player in a meaningful way. Just having the Axis player to get honest and forgo Hasty attacks - which might lure one or more Motorized units to the fray - and "invite" him to prefer Deliberate would slow down considerably Axis progress during Turn 1.

I would be good to have some Russian language confirmation of the sources, before using it as the basis for a major scenario change

Sorry just added another edit - I would be good to have some Russian language confirmation of the sources, before using it as the basis for a major scenario change - must stop doing that.

I think one of the points that comes though clearly was the total chaos that reigned in the first few days, Kirponos was in the process of moving his HQ forward on the morning of the attack and was out of touch. The message centre left at the original HQ site was overwhelmed by the amount of signal traffic that came in. Some units responded to their pre-war deployment plans, others received multiple changes of orders, 8the Mech. had to march and counter march over the same road, perhaps some selective fixing of units might replicate some of this.

I am being dragged out to the shops and must answer a higher authority, thinking about your points. [:)]

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I think one of the points that comes though clearly was the total chaos that reigned in the first few days, Kirponos was in the process of moving his HQ forward on the morning of the attack and was out of touch. The message centre left at the original HQ site was overwhelmed by the amount of signal traffic that came in. Some units responded to their pre-war deployment plans, others received multiple changes of orders, 8the Mech. had to march and counter march over the same road, perhaps some selective fixing of units might replicate some of this.

Hmmm, that's interesting. Fixing or just not changing their position from where they were or that. Note that units will be struck by June 22nd special rules during the Soviet logistics phase, right after Axis movement & combat phase. Their Movement Allowance will be something funny, like 8 MP's or so.

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
I am being dragged out to the shops and must answer a higher authority, thinking about your points. [:)]

Always keep that kind of higher authorities pleased, man [:)] There's no rush at all, after the spike I did to get through the first 3 versions. Once the ball is rolling, it's all about momentum and inertia...

[T-28A]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm still looking forward to D. Stahel book to get more info on the actions of those German formations, which I don't think are mentioned on Kamenir's "The Bloody Triangle".

In short, they were seriously slowed by stiff resistance of the Soviet 41st Rifle Division that manned the positions of Rava-Russka fortified area (where flame-throwing French B2 were engaged), and by massive counterattacks of divisions of 4th Mech Corps (which, as we remember, was the best equipped mech corps in Ukraine and one of two best-equipped corps in Red Army). Amassed hundreds of T-34s, KVs and light tanks made opening days of Barbarossa really sad for 17th Army. For example, the especially badly mauled was 68th Infantry Division, which by the end of June 25th was considered completely disabled by Heeresgruppe Sued, and it requested OKH to bring in 4th Gebirgs Division from OKH reserve to replace the now-defunct 68th Infantry, while the latter was withdrawn to reserve.
But the 4th Mech and 6th Rifle Corps suffered very badly in the process, so, with the ongoing drama on their right flank (Lutsk - Brody - Dubno) they had to retreat from the bulge to not get encircled (btw, one of the planned variants of XIV.A.K.(mot) engagement was exactly striking south from Radziechow, on Lvov, and to cut and encircle the Lvov bulge).
But of course, these few words are unable to properly describe the massive battle in Lvov bulge, I fear.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: T-28A

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
I'm still looking forward to D. Stahel book to get more info on the actions of those German formations, which I don't think are mentioned on Kamenir's "The Bloody Triangle".

In short, they were seriously slowed by stiff resistance of the Soviet 41st Rifle Division that manned the positions of Rava-Russka fortified area (where flame-throwing French B2 were engaged), and by massive counterattacks of divisions of 4th Mech Corps (which, as we remember, was the best equipped mech corps in Ukraine and one of two best-equipped corps in Red Army). Amassed hundreds of T-34s, KVs and light tanks made opening days of Barbarossa really sad for 17th Army. For example, the especially badly mauled was 68th Infantry Division, which by the end of June 25th was considered completely disabled by Heeresgruppe Sued, and it requested OKH to bring in 4th Gebirgs Division from OKH reserve to replace the now-defunct 68th Infantry, while the latter was withdrawn to reserve.
But the 4th Mech and 6th Rifle Corps suffered very badly in the process, so, with the ongoing drama on their right flank (Lutsk - Brody - Dubno) they had to retreat from the bulge to not get encircled (btw, one of the planned variants of XIV.A.K.(mot) engagement was exactly striking south from Radziechow, on Lvov, and to cut and encircle the Lvov bulge).
But of course, these few words are unable to properly describe the massive battle in Lvov bulge, I fear.

Perhaps not, but they do really shed a lot of light on the issue. The question is, how can a German infantry division become "disabled" during GC Turn 1 given current game mechanics? A terrible result for a German infantry attack is to suffer 180 casualties (including permanent and temporary casualties).

[T-28A]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Perhaps not, but they do really shed a lot of light on the issue. The question is, how can a German infantry division become "disabled" during GC Turn 1 given current game mechanics? A terrible result for a German infantry attack is to suffer 180 casualties (including permanent and temporary casualties).

You can't, and nobody can model this with WitE, I presume, moreover with WitE special 1st turn rules. To properly model such thing one would need at most 1-day turns and completely different combat/C3I simulation routines. But that wouldn't be the WitE anymore [:)] I like your approach of 24-36 hours deployment and reserves stance, it is probably the best way to simulate the opening days having no adequate means (engine-wise) to do so.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: T-28A

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Perhaps not, but they do really shed a lot of light on the issue. The question is, how can a German infantry division become "disabled" during GC Turn 1 given current game mechanics? A terrible result for a German infantry attack is to suffer 180 casualties (including permanent and temporary casualties).

You can't, and nobody can model this with WitE, I presume, moreover with WitE special 1st turn rules. To properly model such thing one would need at most 1-day turns and completely different combat/C3I simulation routines. But that wouldn't be the WitE anymore [:)] I like your approach of 24-36 hours deployment and reserves stance, it is probably the best way to simulate the opening days having no adequate means (engine-wise) to do so.

Thank you T-28A for the thumbs up I think it's an avenue worth exploring. On the other hand, if there's no other way, freezing units might work, but providing a rationale for it which is compelling enough. I mean, perhaps the point is not to replicate the battles themselves, but rather, the operational situation. I think the latter might be feasible, taking some liberties with historicity.

Just let's keep reading and thinking, I'm fairly optimistic

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Thank you T-28A for the thumbs up I think it's an avenue worth exploring. On the other hand, if there's no other way, freezing units might work, but providing a rationale for it which is compelling enough. I mean, perhaps the point is not to replicate the battles themselves, but rather, the operational situation. I think the latter might be feasible, taking some liberties with historicity.

Just let's keep reading and thinking, I'm fairly optimistic

I think that what you might want to replicate is, for the Soviet side, the feeling of not controlling many of your units in the early turns, either because you cannot contact them, they are unable to enact orders, or they are following other directives. On the German side there is, amid the general rush Eastwards, the occasional crunch when your units run into some of the more solid Russian units.

It depends on what credence you want to give to the contents of books like 'Bloody Triangle', as to which units are adrift and which ones are more organised. Also, which of the Russian motorised divisions are limited in transport and which tank divisions have the more unreliable and ineffective AFVs and commanders in the early turns and how you wind back to a more normal performance as the game progresses.

All of this portrays the initial Soviet disorganisation in the first days, a feature that WIR had where Soviet units plotted movement would not always go as intended, but it's a short lived effect for the beginning of the scenario. [:)]

[Grungar]

Hey think you are on to something Bletch. WitE is such a good simulation of very high level wargaming that one could actually play the game much like soivet generals used complex board games comelete with chiefs of staff to settle debates or train their operational skill..in fact zhukov considerd the wargame the best trainer for high level officers..Before the war they held 3, each with a different scenario based on the debate that was raging over how the bialstock salient could be used to attack germany if germany struck first with all thier might. one faction argued it could be foritfied and and hold the german with a counter attack to follow while the other insisted it was suicide for the nation because it was indefensible no mkatter how reinfoced it its,.. so the pices were setup according to the parameters most likely after seeing france get crushed. ie one side was give x inf divsions y tanks and aircraft and an objective of operationl imortance given in a very short timetable..one of them was the capture of riga vilnias and sulvaki. then they swiched sides and setup a different but related scenario..Its my opinion wite is the first game that can do tnat in a way to truely train our operational skill for real[:D] In fact the second wargame played was a unkraine only setup. Popov was to attack as germans against zhukov and the panzer general got his ass whooped. Much of the same issue you speak happend as a result of the game. If i remember right zhuk thought that the lovov salient was the weakness in their very powerful deployment in ukraine.His warning were unheaded and thus the drama you guys speak of here. That book you discuss sounds cool i muyst have it. play it out!
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