Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek

[gingerbread]

How does it feel to be the sole voice of reason. Flaviusx?  [;)]

Since BG might very well be a recipient of the Axis grind, I thought it not appropriate to here ask what countermeasures to it that you tried vs James?

Myself, I have high hopes (perhaps too high) in the 120mm Mortar Bn. With say 6-8 in each army, there should be a steady toll on the German infantry.

The Bn's are very cheap at 350 MP/ARM, so having 100+ in total is doable.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think the day of overwhelming Soviet blizzard offensives is gone. It's just much weaker now than it used to be. And every good German player is falling back and keeping his distance from the Red Army -- easier to do now than ever since they're gaining more territory than before.

I hear a lot of stuff on these forums about how the game is biased in favor of the Soviets. My own view is this patch is a gift to Axis players. We overcorrected, imo, and the game isn't really playing anything like historical anymore. Leningrad and Moscow are both falling regularly, there's the infamous Lvov opening, etc.

We've really gone out of our way to accomodate the German player base. Whether this actually resembles history is another matter.

The patch will still not get the German to survive until May of 45.

So Germans take Leningrad and Moscow. Russian production is insane, the manpower simply is moved and you get it back withen a yr. Yes it feels good taking Moscow, but means next to nothing.

1.05 moved the end game from early 44 to early 45.

Alls the Russian player has to do is retreat evac and you got the win by late 44 or early 45 as long as you don't VP out you got the win. Tarhunnas vs gids is a good example and we have plies more withen a few months of 1.05 games.

There are allot of things on the russian side that dont reflect history, like Command and control, Russian infantry corps being stronger then German in late 42 ect ect.

Citys aren't window dressing, but they are close to it.

Pelton

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
How does it feel to be the sole voice of reason. Flaviusx?  [;)]

Hey, I'm not crazy! *tries to jump forward to get a hold of gingerbread neck, two 170kg guys restraint him while dragging back to his cell for proper medication*

ORIGINAL: gingerbread
Since BG might very well be a recipient of the Axis grind, I thought it not appropriate to here ask what countermeasures to it that you tried vs James?

Why not? [:(] I'd love to hear about that.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I would agree with you, but TVD is raping me in our current game an I had the same defence as I am using with ease vs M60.

I think I know what hes doing. Hes got piles and piles of 1 cv armor and cav units (1 cv during blizzard) and about 1/2 of what I see normally for strong units.

He uses the strong units to open a crack in the line then ZOC's 8 to 10 german units along front lines. You can generally save 50% with counter attacks.

He does it again. Hes discovered an exploit that is really smart an is what cripples the German army.
Its not the zoc trap, but once a units surrenders it comes back and is filled up with the new replasements filtering back to front.

I wouldn't say that's an "exploit" Pelton, careful with that word, man

Could you (or TDV himself) explain precisely what these consists of? Is he infiltrating brigades taking advantage of the reduced MP costs to move from ZOC to ZOC for brigades and regiments?

Never played the Russian side, but in 17 games and reading many AAR's hes the only one doing this tactic. Its really what happen historically. Both sides were trashed at end of Blizzard. I think the smart way to do blizzard would be to do partly what hes doing and partly what everyone esle is doing.

And no I will not say exactly what hes doing I am not interested in lossing 1,000,000 men every blizzard. Not that I can explain it, unless hes hacking the data file and giving his units more MP's hehehe.

Not sure how or when his units will every get to far from railheads or trash his truck forse, mybee never.

Pelton

[gingerbread]

Sorry, I forgot the double negation. Please read: not inappropriate.

[Peltonx]

Exploit is not anything bad. First of the German player should be able to shut off refit before the unit can fill up.

Its kinda sad really no one on the Russian side has not figured this out in 2 yrs.

1 million plus blizzard O is still alive and kicking.

[janh]

I tend to agree with Flavius, but maybe Soviet players have just to learn how to max out their blizzard attacks -- use every toy like Germans...

On the other hand, the Soviet blizzard offensive wasn't anything particularly skillful if I recall correctly. It was more like throwing everything against the German positions, often in frontal attacks, and units sneaking thru the gaps left by German units retiring to populated and protective terrain to find cover from the weather and the attackers. So I would expect that a rather poor player should also be able to inflict numerically "high" losses on the Germans on average, and a skillful player should even be able to create gaps and push units into the German rear, maybe even create something like a Demyansk pocket or so.

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The patch will still not get the German to survive until May of 45.

The logical conclusion is what has been stated by others, and what the G&G team is said to be working on: Optempo for the offensive is too high, probably because logistics is too forgiving. It should be much more challenging to take Moscow (and probably Leningrad and Rostov) without running out of steam or depleting own units by pushing too fast and hard, and it should similarly require the Soviets to slow down for some time after executing an offensive with huge front such as Bagration.

ORIGINAL: Pelton
So Germans take Leningrad and Moscow. Russian production is insane, the manpower simply is moved and you get it back withen a yr. Yes it feels good taking Moscow, but means next to nothing.

The "Generalstab der Wehrmacht" complaining... However accurate the present model is, the Russian Army after 43 was probably not exactly short of equipment. Especially the number of tanks, guns and planes they did produce is just amazing for such a short mobilization and given the evacuations. We Germans could only have dreamed of that, but instead we focused on technically way to complex, expensive and failure-prone solutions.

"Loss of manpower" probably reflects population fleeing to other cities (like the population evacuation messages show) and into the adjacent villages and territory. Rebuilding manpower probably has to do with the fugitives returning to their old dwellings... The rate at which they presently return looks reasonable. The more important question is the depth of the sources, when will Russian manpower be drained? Can there be a Russian manpower shortage in 45 with 1.05?

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Alls the Russian player has to do is retreat evac and you got the win by late 44 or early 45 as long as you don't VP out you got the win. Tarhunnas vs gids is a good example and we have plies more withen a few months of 1.05 games.

Citys aren't window dressing, but they are close to it.

I guess Stalin would have confirmed that. And Napoleon learned it like he Wehrmacht did a little later. Terrain and cities mean nothing as long as a large part of the industry and population resides further East, out of German reach. Isn't that a key lesson of both attempts to bring Russia down?

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: janh
So I would expect that a rather poor player should also be able to inflict numerically "high" losses on the Germans on average, and a skillful player should even be able to create gaps and push units into the German rear, maybe even create something like a Demyansk pocket or so.

The latter part is truly the hallmark of a really good Soviet player. It also helps that your opponent goes insane and becomes oblivious to the dangers of encirclement... which is perhaps another shortcoming of the present engine. The Isolated mechanics need to be reviewed, they're too binary (as in capturing pieces in chess).

ORIGINAL: janh

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Alls the Russian player has to do is retreat evac and you got the win by late 44 or early 45 as long as you don't VP out you got the win. Tarhunnas vs gids is a good example and we have plies more withen a few months of 1.05 games.

Citys aren't window dressing, but they are close to it.

I guess Stalin would have confirmed that. And Napoleon learned it like he Wehrmacht did a little later. Terrain and cities mean nothing as long as a large part of the industry and population resides further East, out of German reach. Isn't that a key lesson of both attempts to bring Russia down?

Cities aren't window dressing. Operationally, are the focal points for battle (and this is covered by game mechanics, since reserve commitments gets automatic for battles in urban terrain). Anyone worth its salt won't do a frontal attack on a city if he can avoid it (or he's sure there aren't many reserves to be committed to the battle). Strategically, I tend to agree with both of you.

BTW, the manpower repair thing could also be modeling the fact that after the chaos of the flight eastwards, Soviet authorities get a hold of the situation and start drafting the guys as soon as they come down from the cattle wagon

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Cities aren't window dressing. Operationally, are the focal points for battle (and this is covered by game mechanics, since reserve commitments gets automatic for battles in urban terrain). Anyone worth its salt won't do a frontal attack on a city if he can avoid it (or he's sure there aren't many reserves to be committed to the battle). Strategically, I tend to agree with both of you.

BTW, the manpower repair thing could also be modeling the fact that after the chaos of the flight eastwards, Soviet authorities get a hold of the situation and start drafting the guys as soon as they come down from the cattle wagon

That's true, cities where key factors from at least three aspects, two of which are "fully" and one is partly modeled in-game:
(i) defensive value
(ii) logistical and communications centers (which in fact comes down to key infrastructure like rail yards, ports and warehouses rather than the city or industrial value)
(iii) political or prestige value (which is only partly modeled by Victory Points, neglecting any wider impact that may be very difficult to determine or quantify)
Perhaps the most important value was as logistical centers to store and distribute supplies and replacements?

What I rather meant was that taking or losing a single city didn't really change the outcome of the war. For example, although the evacuation of Moscow was underway in early December 41, it doesn't appear that its loss would have meant an end to the war. A prolongation, and for some time hardships due to the lost rail infrastructure and factories, but probably the Soviets would have found a solution within a surprisingly short time that would have rendered the loss more an "another inconvenience" than a crippling blow that the Germans where looking for...

[Peltonx]

The logical conclusion is what has been stated by others, and what the G&G team is said to be working on: Optempo for the offensive is too high, probably because logistics is too forgiving. It should be much more challenging to take Moscow (and probably Leningrad and Rostov) without running out of steam or depleting own units by pushing too fast and hard, and it should similarly require the Soviets to slow down for some time after executing an offensive with huge front such as Bagration.

Its impossible to take Moscow vs and equal enemy. Problem is most Russian players have no idea what they are doing. They been playing inexp german players and think the know the game then play a German player with a clue and get crushed.

Jamiam could not take Moscow vs Flaviusx, I have failed vs 3 poeple, sure the other 14 games I took it, mainly because the Russian players didn't fully know what they are doing.

It was not that hard for them to hold Moscow and 1 held Leningrad.

Only reason BG lost a few hexes was because of a major poop poop of not garrisoning city. Q-Ball is a very good German and failed to take Moscow and Rostov.

Slowing the tempo with simply make everyone want to play Russian side, its alrdy still easy for the russian player to win.

Dumbing down the game to help out unskilled russian players would be another stupid mistake, but would not be a big surpise. Most Russians I play brag about how they played 2,3,4,5,6, or more games and can't get a German player to get through blizzard.

Then they play a good German player of which there are very few and they cant get to 43. Its because you need to play good players to get skills or read the AAR's which many of these uber russians never do.

The game is very unforgiving if you think you know what your doing and really don't.

The game is about right now, but needs to get some 1.05 games into 44 to 45 for final tweaking.

We just dont know if its right or wrong.

Guys like flaviusx want the German side to be stuck with 100% historical rules and his side the russian side to beable to do whatever they want.

No big surpise when he comes out saying its to easy to take Moscow when he never lost it vs Jamiam or anyone esle for that matter.

He wants more Russian production, no Lvov pocket, no HQ build-up, lower German suplys ect ect ect.

If he had his way the game would be a joke by now.

Pelton

[Flaviusx]

Russian production is fine.

The rest of it, yeah. Pelton, you've broken the game's supply model and are abusing it wildly. The only reason you haven't been taking Moscow more often is because you put your little tactic to use on the wrong strategy: chasing factories. This strategy can be stopped and frustrated. I showed you how.

If you stick to destroying the Red Army, Moscow will be yours in most games, as you are beginning to discover.

I will never accept the Lvov opening, either. I think it puts the game on the wrong foot from the getgo.

1.05 is the Axis player's wet dream. We overcorrected.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Russian production is fine.

The rest of it, yeah. Pelton, you've broken the game's supply model and are abusing it wildly. The only reason you haven't been taking Moscow more often is because you put your little tactic to use on the wrong strategy: chasing factories. This strategy can be stopped and frustrated. I showed you how.

If you stick to destroying the Red Army, Moscow will be yours in most games, as you are beginning to discover.

I will never accept the Lvov opening, either. I think it puts the game on the wrong foot from the getgo.

1.05 is the Axis player's wet dream. We overcorrected.

Did you lose Moscow vs Jamiam?

No so whining about it bbeing so easy then why have you not lost it?

Its because Moscow is impossible to take vs a Good russian player and your one of the best.

Most poeple that play this game don't have a handle on 75% of the game, shit I am still learning after 17 games.

There are what 5 or 6 good German players and there are what 10ish good Russian.

Yes sure I can make the average Russian Look like crap, but so can you make the average German look like crap.
1.05 nerfed German Logistics, nerfed russian production that about it and took out the Russian I win button (1v1=2v1)

Dumbing down the game to help out some of your Russian friends is not going to help the game.

Most Russians I play make the claim they cant find a German to get past the blizzard. Its still far easyer to play this game as the Russian.

1.05 put the game into late 44/early 45. If you want to go back to it ending in 43 as was the norm before 1.05 you simply will be killing the game.

You as always want the German player in the historical box and want your side the Russian to beable to do whatever you like screw history ect ect

Al things being fair your not.

Once you lose Moscow vs an equal player then come whine about how 1.05 is a gift.

Pelton

[KenchiSulla]

I think it is still to early to say if 1.05 was overcorrecting. I do feel my army is very damaged after the 17 turns of buttkicking (some of it my own fault, lost many rifle divisions in pockets) and many are suffering from very low morale (that is something I can't help). I might hold Moscow in my game vs Helio but I wonder how good a blizzard offensive I can mount.

The game, however, is far from historical now. The operational tempo is very high and without the ability to respond to "HQ buildup Blitzkrieg" in weekly turns, the ability to "harvest" troops into pockets and the absolute reduction in CV magically when pocketed the only thing you can do is run for the hills...

O, and Pelton, stop accusing everyone of fanboyism and mentioning "russian" friends every chance you get. There is really only one clear fanboy here, and thats you...

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Did you lose Moscow vs Jamiam?

Our game has been on hold, due to Flavio's real life commitments. IIRC, we're about 1-2 turns from the end of the rasputina. Hard to tell exactly, since we're playing with random weather, but I figure that I have about a 40-60% chance to take Moscow before blizzard. To do this, I will be fairly exhausted, and overextended - succeed, or fail.

If I succeed, Flavio's winter counteroffensive would be reduced in strength by whatever I might bag in any Moscow pocket. It could be substantial. or minimal, depending on whether he decides to abandon or continue fighting. If I fail, I will be ripe for a massive butt-raping. Knife's edge play can be addictively exciting. One of these days, we'll continue and see what will happen.

[Klydon]

Sorry for the derail, but;

By most accounts, the Germans had Leningrad for the taking in late July/August of 1941. They passed on the opportunity. You also wonder what would have happen had the diverson to the south not taken place and with the Russians running, there won't be the opportunity for it or the delay it imposes. As it was, the Germans came close to Moscow.

Right now, the Germans are doing better than historical in part because of the logistics benefits and also it appears their tactics have evolved and the Russians are in catch up mode.

The Russians had it so easy before 1.05 that they sat on the basic tactics they were using (run, carpet and introduce the Germans to a forest of level 3-4 forts). At that point, the only AARs that were showing any consistent German success and any shot at a "regular" 1942 were Peltons with a very few others.

With 1.05, the Russians can't do the same thing they were doing before and expect to kick the snot out of the Germans. Their forest of level 3-4 forts are gone and they are having issues adapting at this point in time, but the Russians are being forced to look at tactics and adapt to how the game is now. I think with a few minor tweaks and some thought on the Russian side of the front in terms of tactics, Russian performance will improve. Remember how poorly many Germans were doing at the start of the game and look at the discussions in the War Room about it as the Germans worked on new tactics in order to improve in the first part of the campaign. The Russians have not really done anything along these lines yet. (Not saying they have to, but a regroup on the part of the Russians discussing tactics and options needs to take place imo to help the Russian side players with the changes in game).

I detest premature changes for the sake of "game balance" before the community has a chance to work on some countermeasures. I quit playing SFB tourny's because of their penchant to do that sort of crap. What worked one year would not work the next as other players would develop other tactics and countermeasures even before they made changes and after they changed stuff, it made the previous years "winners" worthless. There have been a pile of patches. Let the community get some testing time with what is going on now and give them a chance to adapt. (Adapting does not equal one side or the other screaming for nerfs for the other side btw).

[BletchleyGeek]

Not a derail, but interesting discussion Klydon

By the way, what's SFB?

[gingerbread]

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Not a derail, but interesting discussion Klydon

By the way, what's SFB?

SFB? Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAstrumStudio#p/u/12/GRDymgW6RA4

From: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2948164

[Klydon]

SFB = Star Fleet Battles. Board game.

[BletchleyGeek]

Hahahaha, very funny the thread, I found these two especially hilarious


[center][/center]

[center][/center]

but SFB is something like "Star Fleet Battles"? A mod of the venerable Starfleet Academy?

[Klydon]

Serious derail now.

Here is a wiki link. Basically a board game that "simulates" combat in the Star Trek Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Fleet_Battles