England is mine

Time of Fury spans the whole war in Europe and gives players the opportunity to control all types of units, ground, air and naval. Not only that, each player will be able to pick a single country or selection of countries and fight his way against either the AI or in multiplayer in hotseat or Play by E-Mail. This innovative multiplayer feature will give player the chance to fight bigger scenarios against many opponents, giving the game a strategic angle that has no equal in the market. The game uses Slitherine’s revolutionary PBEM++ server system.

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Rasputitsa
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RE: England is mine

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
As I said before. I LIKE the game. I AM glad I bought it. It is just not anywhere close to being a historical simulation. Which is fine as far as I am concerned but others may not feel that way so they should know that.

One other issue you may need to examine is that each turn now the version of GB that is now at war with the English Union (?) have had messages pop up saying that it no longer wants to join the Allies and the percentage drops between 10-15 points. I have no idea what happens when it gets to zero, considering that the only Allied countries right now are Iraq and the English colonies. So if the colonies leave the Allies, will that mean that Iraq will then be the Allies leader [X(] ? Like I said fantasy land.

I haven't tried 'Sea Lion' yet, so cannot comment, except to say that it could never have been an easy operation, unless there was a complete British collapse.

However, on the point of how historical the game is, is it a historical simulation, or a simulation of history. One of the good parts about the game is that it can go in different directions. Stalin's actions in Finland and Romania helped trigger Hitler's long held desire to settle accounts with the USSR and a less agressive Soviet approach to Finland and Romania might have delayed Hitler's plans. The surrender of Britain in 1940 and access to World raw materials might have put off the German attack indefinitely.

Here's one example of how one decision could have changed the whole direction of the war on all fronts :

What-if on the 24th May 1940, when Hitler visited von Rundsedt's HQ at Charleville, to discover that 4th Armee with its preponderance of panzer and motorised divisions was to be transferrd to Armee Group B, he had changed his mind. The transfer was Halder's attempt to circumvent Rundstedt and Kliest's conservative attitude and their 'close up' order of the 23rd May, which had already halted the German mobile units (at a time when they were closer to the Dunkirk beaches than most of the retreating Allied forces). Halder had wanted to get the panzers moving again, but Hitler, angered at not being consulted, decided to rescind the transfer and declared approval for Rundstedt's 'halt' order. I believe he did this to reassert his supremacy over his immediate subordinates, Halder and von Brauchitsch, despite the resulting impact on the strategic situation.

But what if he had changed his mind, intending to maximise the military situation and then deal with his subordinates later, an easy thing to have done and it could have changed the whole course of the War.

The initial British prediction of possibly saving only 45,000 allied troops would have been realised. Britain would not have had the morale boost of the 'victory' at Dunkirk, hundreds of thousands of British troops, instead of re-organising for the defence of Britain, would have gone into captivity, with the corrosive effect of plaintive letters to their families and Goebles full use of newreels to ram the message home.

The smart move would then to have not launched a bombing offensive, but massive fighter sweeps over Southern England, to wear down Fighter Command, and show the failure of British policy, at little cost to the Luftwaffe.

There is a reasonable prospect that this might have provoked a change of British government, prepared to enter into negotiation with Germany and then .........

This may be fit for a fantasy, but why should this not be a plausable scenario, Britain becomes an Axis puppet and Japan might benefit from the Axis side of the agreement and obtains access to raw materials from the former European Allies' South-east Asia possessions 'peacefully'. Just as Japan 'peacefully' accessed French possessions in Indo-China after Vichy France had negotiated a deal with Germany.

This happens long before Pearl Harbor is cast in stone and would the US then react, could they attempt to interdict this peaceful trade, would the US have been drawn into a war that was essentially over ?

I am not saying the game is perfect, there are features that I question, but I like the possible variations in the game and feel that situations that may seem impossible in the history that we have grown up with, may not be so fantastic, with surprisingly small changes.

I think the belief that Stalin was planning to attack Germany in 1940 is unlikely, but decisions can be changed and perhaps the early entry of the USSR should be set as an player option, or at least a warning issued when policy decisions may trigger major events. [:)]
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waichou
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RE: England is mine

Post by waichou »

I totally agree with Numdydar, I really like the gameplay, but I am very dissapointed with the diplomacy. I understand lots of scenarios can occurs, but it is still a WWII game (if I am wrong...). So ok, Russia attacks Hitler in early 1940 (and without Sealion for me, and Russia seems totally unready...), ok UK at war with its colony [&:], ok Finland take Leningrad and Novgorod (in my game), and I am only in June 1940 !! What will happens in few months, USA and UK at war with Russia or something else ? Please, stop saying it is assumed choice of your part, I really think diplomacy settings should be reviewed, where is the fun if UK and Russia fall in 1940 both ? In my point of view you should :

- increase the UK defense for Sealion (it looks too simple, where is their fleet ?)
- stop Russia DOW in Romania AND Germany at the same time (it is a BUG)
- and if want absolutly want Russia DOW in 1940, increase their army !! Why they should attack if I don't see a single soldier entering in Poland (of course, because they are totally unprepared)

And about the discussion of Stalin wanted to declar war or not in 1940, I really don't think this is the matter, he finally didn't do it, and that is what we expect in a WWII wargame. And ToF is not HoI or HoI 2 I a understand ?

I repeat, I love the gameplay and I think the game has lot potential, but please, do something for this !

waichou
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RE: England is mine

Post by waichou »



[/quote]

It's simple. When I play, for instance, I like to play it historically. I don't invade the Low Countries in Oct 39. I wait till May 1940. I wait to take Yugoslavia in 41. I don't pour German units into North Africa, and so on. I enjoy it that way. Makes a more historical game. My choice. I don't see the problem.
[/quote]

Ok, I agree with you, but it won't change that Russia will declare war in 1940 because of Romania, and only god know what will happens with Finland (I hope I will take Moscow before them !) [&o]
cherryfunk
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RE: England is mine

Post by cherryfunk »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
There is a reasonable prospect that this might have provoked a change of British government, prepared to enter into negotiation with Germany and then ...
The scenario you outline is plausible, in that it could have led to a negotiated peace -- but how do you get from the UK reluctantly coming to the table to the UK becoming a puppet government, especially since not a single German soldier has set foot upon British soil in your scenario?

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RE: England is mine

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: cherryfunk
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
There is a reasonable prospect that this might have provoked a change of British government, prepared to enter into negotiation with Germany and then ...
The scenario you outline is plausible, in that it could have led to a negotiated peace -- but how do you get from the UK reluctantly coming to the table to the UK becoming a puppet government, especially since not a single German soldier has set foot upon British soil in your scenario?

Because 250,000+ British troops could be held hostage in Germany, after the failed Dunkirk evacuation and what terms do you think Hitler would put into such an armistice, what would be the price be of avoiding occupation, or would occupation be the price of peace. We will never know the answer, but it was the price that France had to pay.

I agree that the further you move into the realms of possibilities the less sure you can be, there is a high probability that if Hitler had changed his mind, then Dunkirk would have been a British disaster. The following probabilities get harder to justify the further you move from the changed event.

It is just an example that history does not have to run in any sequence, other possibilities are reasonably possible. [:)]
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“Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress" - Napoleon
cherryfunk
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RE: England is mine

Post by cherryfunk »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
Because 250,000+ British troops could be held hostage in Germany, after the failed Dunkirk evacuation and what terms do you think Hitler would put into such an armistice, what would be the price be of avoiding occupation, or would occupation be the price of peace. We will never know the answer, but it was the price that France had to pay.
Vichy France was not a puppet government -- it had autonomy and it remained neutral. So no, there's no way that the UK would have succumbed to German hegemony because the BEF had been taken prisoner. Negotiated an armistice, perhaps, but become a puppet government? No way.

In any event it seems that the Sealion option is too easy in ToF, which, along with the borked Russian declaration of war, means I won't be playing for some time. But that's okay, Unity of Command is proving to be a remarkable little game.

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RE: England is mine

Post by doomtrader »

It shouldn't be a problem to mod a game in a way where there will be no British Union.
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RE: England is mine

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: cherryfunk
Vichy France was not a puppet government -- it had autonomy and it remained neutral. So no, there's no way that the UK would have succumbed to German hegemony because the BEF had been taken prisoner. Negotiated an armistice, perhaps, but become a puppet government? No way.

I don't think there is much advantage in a deep discussion, because the whole point about what-if scenarios is that they didn't happen and can't be proved. Was Vichy France a puppet government :

The Vichy leaders collaborated as far as ordering the French police and the local milice (militiamen) to go on raids to capture Jews and other minorities considered "undesirables" by Germany as well as political opponents and members of the Resistance, thus helping enforce German policy in occupied zones. Vichy also promulgated its own, German-inspired laws and policies that restricted political freedom and took rights away from foreigners and racial minorities. Wikipedia.

There is no way of telling how the British government, or people would have behaved in different circumstances, or if Lord Halifax had become Prime Minister, instead of Churchill. The main thing that all games suffer from is hindsight, if they are too historically rigid, we all know what is going to happen next. To be in the position of the real commanders, who did not know the script, it is good if the game contains some unexpected , or unpredictable events.
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cherryfunk
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RE: England is mine

Post by cherryfunk »

You're not using the term 'puppet government' correctly.  Vichy collaborated to an extent, yes, but it was not controlled by Germany. Most notably, it resisted German efforts to cooperate more fully in the war on Russia and the UK.  And further, we can know this much about the British -- they would not have succumbed even more to German hegemony than France did, given that their opposition was more entrenched, their resources far larger (most of them entirely out of Germany's reach) and -- in the scenario you posit -- entirely free of a German military presence within their borders.  The notion that a surrender at Dunkirk would have lead to Britain bowing down to Germany strikes me as ridiculous.  Far more likely that it would have stiffened British resistance.

Puppet State:

A puppet state (also known as puppet government or marionette government) is a nominal sovereign of a state who is de facto controlled by a foreign power. The term refers to a government controlled by the government of another country like a puppeteer controls the strings of a marionette. A puppet state has also been described as an entity which in fact lacks independence, preserves all the external of independence, but in reality is only an organ of another state who has set it up and whose satellite it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_state


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RE: England is mine

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: cherryfunk
You're not using the term 'puppet government' correctly.  Vichy collaborated to an extent, yes, but it was not controlled by Germany. Most notably, it resisted German efforts to cooperate more fully in the war on Russia and the UK.  And further, we can know this much about the British -- they would not have succumbed even more to German hegemony than France did, given that their opposition was more entrenched, their resources far larger (most of them entirely out of Germany's reach) and -- in the scenario you posit -- entirely free of a German military presence within their borders.  The notion that a surrender at Dunkirk would have lead to Britain bowing down to Germany strikes me as ridiculous.  Far more likely that it would have stiffened British resistance.

Puppet State:

A puppet state (also known as puppet government or marionette government) is a nominal sovereign of a state who is de facto controlled by a foreign power. The term refers to a government controlled by the government of another country like a puppeteer controls the strings of a marionette. A puppet state has also been described as an entity which in fact lacks independence, preserves all the external of independence, but in reality is only an organ of another state who has set it up and whose satellite it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_state

The WiTE forum is bogged down in the same endless discussions about whether this, or that event, might have happened. The point is that these are games and they are supposed to entertain, if they are constrained into a rigid formula of only those events that can be guaranteed to have happened, then we all know the script and what's coming next. I am playing Fall Gelb and the early Russian entry has triggered (see other thread), I know it's highly unlikely that it would have happened in reality, but it looks like it might turn into a good game.

I never used the phrase puppet state, that was your contribution, I merely said that Britain might have chosen to negotiate, rather than face a long war, loss of gold reserves and years of impoverishment, which followed the decision to fight on. This was helped by the euphoria of the Dunkirk miracle, which should not have succeeded, as I have proposed. I don't regret the decision the Britain made and it was the right choice, but there were many in the UK at the time, who if they had felt empowered by a disastrous Dunkirk, may have been prepared to seek another way.

I am happy to play any scenario that has a probability of having occurred. Even the Sea Lion possibility, which I think would never have happened in reality, is still the basis for a good game. Which in the end is what we want, a good game. [:)]
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RE: England is mine

Post by doomtrader »

When I have been designing and developing this game, one of the most important things was to create a game which can be customized in almost every possible way.

For an unexperienced person, it should take just an hour or two to turn off every event regarding puppetizing Great Britain, so go ahead and adjust the game to your own vision, as most probably I'll never be able to satisfy everybody. [:)]
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RE: England is mine

Post by gwgardner »

And if you do mod like that, please post it for others to use who want the same kind of change.

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RE: England is mine

Post by Rasputitsa »

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
When I have been designing and developing this game, one of the most important things was to create a game which can be customized in almost every possible way.

For an unexperienced person, it should take just an hour or two to turn off every event regarding puppetizing Great Britain, so go ahead and adjust the game to your own vision, as most probably I'll never be able to satisfy everybody. [:)]

It wasn't that I wanted to create that particular situation, but that I was using the events of 1940 to show how, in my view (others will have a different opinion), one decision (by Hitler in this case) could have cause a major change in the events of the war. I am in favour of as much choice of scenario as possible, without being completely beyond the bounds of historical probabilities, for instance having experienced it for the first time, I think the possibility of an early Soviet entry makes for a more interesting game.

I see that it would be a game breaker if it happened every time, but a low odds possibility is useful to ensure a realistic deployment in the East, just in case of attack. Maybe with a option to select the possibility of an early 'Soviet Entry' odds check if you wanted (again odds don't have to be high), or 'off', if you didn't. I think I saw 1% mentioned somewhere, will that risk still remain after the Romania 'fix'.

What are the odds of a major Allied 1939 offensive against Germany, whilst the attack on Poland is in progress ? [:)]
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RE: England is mine

Post by doomtrader »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


What are the odds of a major Allied 1939 offensive against Germany, whilst the attack on Poland is in progress ?

1% for immediate
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RE: England is mine

Post by Zovs »

I think some here are missing the point and some close to the design/development team are taking things way to close to heart (another words they don't have very thick skins at all).

This is historical accuracy and historical plausibility and then there is alternative (sci fi) history (or wishful thinking).

I want a fun historical accurate war game with choices that the real commanders had and real possible effects.

It would be science fiction to say that England wold become a puppet of Germany. Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Turkey, Spain and maybe even Switzerland but that is about it. England would either fight to the death or the US would intervene. The Soviets would retreat into the vastness of Russia but would still be fighting a war.

To think otherwise is beyond folly and falls into the Realms of those wishing or wanted to play a war game modeled after WW2 where in the US joins the Germans to fight England or some other such nonsense.

Same thing with a bunch of different pieces of this game. There is a group of people saying x, y and z would or could be better modeled if a b and c were a possibility. But when this happens the designers/developers jump on them and marginalize their viewpoints.

Its this marginalizing of the viewpoints that is putting me off.

I rather enjoy this game, it takes a little bit of suspension of disbelief to play (as opposed to a more realsitic and detailed portray of events such as WitE or WitP) but that is okay, just don't marginalize those that make suggestions or have historical leg to stand on please.

Also, don't read my post wrong. I don't want a scripted WW2 game to actually follow WW2. But I do want a historical war game where things could happen, not things that are pipe dream that some wishes would happen.

So far I don't see the pipe dream, I do see a problem with England becoming a puppet of Germany or fighting it's Allies. I also seen another problem with the Germans. In one game I declared war on Denmark and all the Axis Allies declared war back on Germany. This simply would not happen and is a bug and should be fixed in a patch.

Also, there is nothing wrong with patching the game and fixing it. No one is perfect and almost all games are not release that way and need to be patched to fix bugs, play balance or things that the designer/developers did not think the players would do (cause their testers did not do it).

So thicken up your skin a bit and don't take it so personal and quit marginalizing the people that purchased the game and are only making suggestions for a more improved game.

No worries dudes.
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RE: England is mine

Post by fvianello »

Same thing with a bunch of different pieces of this game. There is a group of people saying x, y and z would or could be better modeled if a b and c were a possibility. But when this happens the designers/developers jump on them and marginalize their viewpoints.

Its this marginalizing of the viewpoints that is putting me off.

I couldn't agree more.
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RE: England is mine

Post by Wolfe1759 »

ORIGINAL: dlazov66

I think some here are missing the point and some close to the design/development team are taking things way to close to heart (another words they don't have very thick skins at all).

This is historical accuracy and historical plausibility and then there is alternative (sci fi) history (or wishful thinking).

I want a fun historical accurate war game with choices that the real commanders had and real possible effects.

It would be science fiction to say that England wold become a puppet of Germany. Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Turkey, Spain and maybe even Switzerland but that is about it. England would either fight to the death or the US would intervene. The Soviets would retreat into the vastness of Russia but would still be fighting a war.

To think otherwise is beyond folly and falls into the Realms of those wishing or wanted to play a war game modeled after WW2 where in the US joins the Germans to fight England or some other such nonsense.

Same thing with a bunch of different pieces of this game. There is a group of people saying x, y and z would or could be better modeled if a b and c were a possibility. But when this happens the designers/developers jump on them and marginalize their viewpoints.

Its this marginalizing of the viewpoints that is putting me off.

I rather enjoy this game, it takes a little bit of suspension of disbelief to play (as opposed to a more realsitic and detailed portray of events such as WitE or WitP) but that is okay, just don't marginalize those that make suggestions or have historical leg to stand on please.

Also, don't read my post wrong. I don't want a scripted WW2 game to actually follow WW2. But I do want a historical war game where things could happen, not things that are pipe dream that some wishes would happen.

So far I don't see the pipe dream, I do see a problem with England becoming a puppet of Germany or fighting it's Allies. I also seen another problem with the Germans. In one game I declared war on Denmark and all the Axis Allies declared war back on Germany. This simply would not happen and is a bug and should be fixed in a patch.

Also, there is nothing wrong with patching the game and fixing it. No one is perfect and almost all games are not release that way and need to be patched to fix bugs, play balance or things that the designer/developers did not think the players would do (cause their testers did not do it).

So thicken up your skin a bit and don't take it so personal and quit marginalizing the people that purchased the game and are only making suggestions for a more improved game.

No worries dudes.

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RE: England is mine

Post by Lascar »

I am getting the impression that many of the concerns about the historicity of ToF, the diplomacy issues and other concerns may be alleviated once the editor is released and players will have considerable latitude to modify important aspects of the game to better reflect their vision of how the simulation of the war should be framed. I too have had these concerns and held off from buying ToF just yet because of legitimate concerns raised here. But from what I have been able to gather from doomtrader's comments regarding the design philosophy placing a high emphasis on modablity my confidence in the potential of the game is growing. Once the editor is available I hope that it will be fully realized.
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RE: England is mine

Post by Numdydar »

Modding is great imho. So I am all for it. However, if this is supposted to an historical simulation, then I should not 'have' to mod it in order to have some simblance to the historical period.
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RE: England is mine

Post by Lascar »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Modding is great imho. So I am all for it. However, if this is supposted to an historical simulation, then I should not 'have' to mod it in order to have some simblance to the historical period.
I agree with you and if it takes some additional hard coding to address these concerns I hope the developers will seriously consider doing so.
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