Clash of Steel: 1941-1945: Q-Ball vs Bletchley_Geek

[M60A3TTS]

One interesting note from my game. Just started May. I found I have no problems merging a rifle brigade with a naval rifle brigade into a division. I thought that wasn't possible and wonder if you had done it.

[Flaviusx]

This has always been possible. The only restriction is on naval infantry brigades. (Which are distinct from naval rifle brigades.)

They look the same, which leads to confusion. The naval infantry brigades really ought to get an anchor icon to distinguish them. I.e., show them as marines.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

This has always been possible. The only restriction is on naval infantry brigades. (Which are distinct from naval rifle brigades.)

They look the same, which leads to confusion. The naval infantry brigades really ought to get an anchor icon to distinguish them. I.e., show them as marines.

Or a "marine" counter color.

[M60A3TTS]

Thanks, I just now realized same. Good thing there aren't many of the NIBs.

[BletchleyGeek]

Turn 50 – 28 May 1942

After yet another – and for some time expect – hiatus caused by a huge volume of work having to be done in too little time, I'm back into business. Mud business.

I've had a few days – while my mind wandered away from work – to think about the many insightful comments – thanks guys! - made by Klydon, Flavio and M60. I've setup the Rifle7 division “pipeline” that Klydon suggested. I just don't have the troops to setup an strategic reserve “for free”, I need to build it. This turn I've built 6 Rifle Brigades, and I'll be doing so during the next three or four turns. This means I'm committing 60% of my AP income stream into building this strategic reserve. I'll reduce this to 4 Rifle brigades, and will probably doing so make sure I have over 470 division equivalents. Too much infantry? Perhaps, but I prefer to err on the plus side than to err on having too scarce reserves.

The other thing that has kept me “distracted” these days is thinking how to plan ahead the defense of the Caucasus. Flavio pointed out that the Stalingrad – Astrakhan – Baku is the outmost importance to a successful defense of Baku. He's right, as usual the problem is how to defend that rail line... and sitting right on top of it isn't going to work at all. Good defensive terrain is quite scarce here in the South, and river lines and cities are the best terrain for it

[center][/center]

I'd like to fight it out for Krasnodar and Voroshilovsk, two major cities, with approaches covered by swamps and river lines. If/When Q-Ball reaches this line, the plan is to hold it the longest possible, and performa a delaying action during September while I fall back towards the Terek. I need to keep Q-Ball far from Krasnodar until early August or so. I'm not sure this is feasible, but I otherwise he'll be advancing just too fast.

[BletchleyGeek]

Turn 51 – 4 June 1942

Another – very welcomed – mud turn. This turn arrives Voronezh Front, which will help a lot to reduce the load of Bryansk and Southwestern Front, bringing some rationality and efficiency to the Red Army organization in a critical sector.

Logistics & Organization

I think it will be useful to comment a bit on how much – in terms of AP's – costs me to setup Voronezh Front and insert it in the Red Army line of battle. This turn I start with 277 AP's – 150 of them I think granted by the Front arrival – but the strategic reserves program has priority. This turn I build 6 Rifle Brigades, 2 Motor Brigades and 3 Gun Brigades (36 152mm Howitzers each) for a total of 55 AP's.

Voronezh Front comes into the game with Uncle Joe drinking mate Kliment Voroshilov

[center][/center]

this guy needs to go. Checking the roster I find an obvious candidate in Kyrill Meretskov, who has been languishing up in the Far North for most of the game

[center][/center]

and costs just 16 AP's. I decide to assign to Voronezh Front the following Armies:

61st Army, which goes to STAVKA for 52 AP's – I cringe – then to Voronezh Front.
33rd Army, which goes to STAVKA for 52 AP's – yet again, I cringe – then to Voronezh Front.
37th Army, goes directly to Voronezh Front for 27 AP's – I got a good roll here.
31st Army, goes directly to Voronezh Front for 54 AP's – didn't get lucky this time.

I can't assign anything else, since only 20 AP's remain. You can see how expensive this can be – I just got lucky once, with Shaposhnikov at the STAVKA and Meretskov at Voronezh Front, which have Admin of 8 and 6, respectively – a net total of 185 AP's.

This is also the turn where I get my Monthly assessment of Soviet production. In the last four turns, 392,261 men and 231,411 armaments have been used to furnish Red Army units. Over this month, about 50% of manpower has been used to form up Rifle Squads and other Rifle Division related ground elements, while a 43% goes into Support squads. As you can see I have a huge armaments surplus, hence I decided to give the green light to the Gun Brigades. I'm also considering raising TOE's for some Arty SU's, or invest this surplus in mortars and rockets.

[M60A3TTS]

Yes, you paid a price from not having STAVKA armies available to assign to Voronezh Front.

[Flaviusx]

Moral of the story: always have STAVKA armies in the kitty. At least until mid 43 or so. I believe Steppe Front is the last new Front you get. (There's some shuffling around of stuff after that when Bryansk Front autodisbands, but this is for free, all the units attached revert to STAVKA.)

[ComradeP]

Yes, with somewhat reasonable leaders in the armies, there's little to no reason not to keep armies assigned to STAVKA instead of massively overloading fronts.

As to the fronts, you get a reformed Southwestern Front in October, Steppe Front in June 1943, after which Bryansk Front is disbanded in October 1943 only to be reformed as 2nd Belorussian Front in February 1944.

[Flaviusx]

Hmmm. I don't quite agree with that, Pieter. The combat hit from poor C&C does matter. My conclusion is rather the opposite from yours: there's no point in worrying about overloading Fronts until mid 43 or so. If you have to do it, do it. But you should still keep some armies in STAVKA to slide them in to newly arriving fronts.

The command overload at the Front level eventually resolves itself as you switch to corps and lighten the load on the individual armies and more fronts arrive. 450 rifle divisions=900 command points. 150 rifle corps = 600 CP. That's simplifying things a bit, but eventually you can meet your command requirements at the Front level.

However STAVKA will always be overloaded.

[ComradeP]

What combat hit from poor C&C? As far as I know, there's no documented penalty for leader rolls for STAVKA-attached armies, nor is there a combat penalty (only for units directly attached to fronts/STAVKA). Besides, there's nothing stopping you from using STAVKA like a front HQ and keeping all STAVKA attached frontline armies in more or less the same area.

What you propose (overloading fronts) means that you'll have an extremely small chance to ever make the second leader roll. With non-overloaded fronts, you'll at least have a chance. I don't see any benefit with overloading fronts, considering that there's no real penalty for armies attached to STAVKA. Contrary to units attached to STAVKA, the units attached to the army HQ's that are in turn attached to STAVKA will generally be in command range of their HQ and will thus get normal supplies (the main problem with STAVKA attached units aside from the combat penalties being the minimal amount of supplies they get).

The performance of my STAVKA armies is more or less identical to that of my non-STAVKA armies.

[Flaviusx]

STAVKA units mixed in with units under a front command will not perform at 100% in combat, Pieter.

Yes, your units commanded by Fronts will pass more out of combat command checks if kept under limits, but pay for it on the battlefield. I'd rather take the out of combat hit and wait for the Front command shortage to straighten itself out.

[ComradeP]

STAVKA units mixed in with units under a front command will not perform at 100% in combat, Pieter.

Neither do units from different front or army commands. All it takes is some good management. If you can prevent units from 2 different fronts participating in an attack if you don't want them to/if the penalties would be too severe, you can also prevent STAVKA armies mixing in with front armies.

There's a real downside to overloading fronts. With proper management, there's little to no downside to using STAVKA-attached armies.

[Flaviusx]

A front kept under command limits will only be able to cover a very small amount of real estate. There are not enough fronts early on to properly cover the whole front. So some intermixing between STAVKA and front units is inevitable if you try to stay under Front command limits.

A Front can barely manage 3 full armies. That's not going to go far.

Good management will avoid command penalties in offensive combats, sure. But you're entirely at the mercy of the enemy during his turn, and the Axis can easily contrive things so that units under different Front or STAVKA commands get mixed up as a result of retreats and routs. Things get very messy.

[ComradeP]

With the current weakness of Soviet units, proper C&C will give you the most benefits when attacking. And things getting messy when the enemy breaks through is not something that can really be avoided even with only units of the same command in the same area, as they probably won't have forts to hide in and will just be blown away by the Wehrmacht.

I just don't worry too much about C&C penalties when defending, because I know that when an attack comes, it's going to hurt anyway and that after the initial line retreated, units can retreat/rout anywhere and mix up.

Also: the Germans can only see the commanding HQ, not whether a unit is STAVKA assigned or not. They might deduce it from combat results, but they'd need to pay close attention because they'll only see it when a unit from a non-STAVKA attached army participates in a battle with a unit from a STAVKA-attached army.

As an example:

Let's say you have 2 units from 10th Army that's not attached to STAVKA and 1 unit from 30th Army that is attached to STAVKA. Let's say all units have a CV of 2(ergo:20 in battle). If the commanding HQ is 10th Army, the unit from 30th Army will lose 5 points of CV, but various leader checks might make up for it. If 30th Army ends up being the commanding army, the units from 10th Army will lose 5 CV each for a total of 10. As a percentage of the total it's a lot, but not as a hard number (there's barely any difference between 50/55 and 60 CV). That's why I don't worry too much about it, as the penalties are pretty small. Somewhat decent leaders will generally nullify the reduction in any case.

When you get corps and good units with higher CV's, then yes, it could be a problem, but by that point you should have enough fronts for most of your armies anyway.

The only thing I'm afraid of is a unit being moved to a hex with a STAVKA unit and STAVKA being picked as the commanding HQ, in which case CV goes down the drain in an instant.

[randallw]

Was the KV tank named after Kliment Voroshilov? ( or is that just some weirdness I made up )

[ComradeP]

Yes. Kliment Voroshilov was the kind of guy who thrived by being so mediocre in almost everything he did that nobody was really bothered by him taking theoretically powerful positions. He was still around at the time of the Hungarian uprising. How his liver survived that long is anyone's guess.

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Was the KV tank named after Kliment Voroshilov? ( or is that just some weirdness I made up )

Yes it was.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Yes. Kliment Voroshilov was the kind of guy who thrived by being so mediocre in almost everything he did that nobody was really bothered by him taking theoretically powerful positions. He was still around at the time of the Hungarian uprising. How his liver survived that long is anyone's guess.

LOL[:D]

[BletchleyGeek]

Turn 54 – 25 June 1942

The 1942 Axis Offensive starts... or better, half of it. The suspicions I harbored since Turn 48 have materialized

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Or perhaps that PzKorps is going towards Orel... in any case, I'd like Q-Ball to commit like that, even if I have to risk losing a few divisions. If I displace forces on the flanks, perhaps I will be able to put some hurt on Q-Ball. Perhaps. 

Q-Ball has committed half of his motorized forces – two full PanzerArmees from my estimates – attacking the salient west of Voronezh. The result has been a major engagement on the western bank of the Don, resulting in 18 divisions being encircled (about 150,000 men). Q-Ball told me over e-mail that my defenses were good: he couldn't get where he wanted to. I must say that his attack was very good as well, he's played craftily the ZOC game to herd divisions into destruction by manipulating retreat paths.

The newly formed Voronezh Front – whose formation has sparkled a quite interesting discussion here – has been badly mauled. Of its four armies – 31st, 33rd, 37th and 61st – the former three have been overrun by Q-Ball's schwerpunkt left wing. Southwestern Front has also suffered. 19th Army has been completely encircled, 12th Army – covering the flank – has been scattered to the four winds and half of 26th Army – left wing of the salient operational reserves – units have been mostly defeated. To make it short: business as usual.

Things on the Caucasus are quiet, for now. Q-Ball is obviously waiting for his railhead to be extended over the Don at Rostov.

Q-Ball has let loose Luftwaffe tactical aircraft to support his offensive. As usual when he does this, the VVS manages to inflict equal losses as it suffered.

Operational Situation Report

I think it's interesting to first take a look at things at Turn 52, when I decided to hold the salient and plan ahead for a major battle west of Voronezh

[center][/center]

In this picture you can see part of the on-going troop movements to get ready to battle for the salient, with Voronezh Front – light blue – laying in a messy heap west of the city. Here I had a difficult choice to make. Either I presented a forward defense – by massing its four armies covering the right flank of the salient – or lay an echeloned, in depth reserve. The former had good chances of becoming a dam that could perhaps contain the German onslaught. But I'm very wary of what one can do as the phasing player, and opted for the second option, as depicted on the following picture:

[center][/center]

with two armies to the front – deployed along a depth of 30 miles – and two other armies perched on the Don river line. All units not in contact with the Axis, were set to Reserve mode (which involved an unreasonable number of clicks). What I've found when opening the turn isn't really pretty

[center][/center]

but not THAT bad. For the very first time after a German offensive, I have powerful formations on the flanks and front of a German thrust. I think I have a quite good idea of what's Q-Ball operational plan, to get into Moscow from the “back door”

[center][/center]

creating plenty of opportunities for me to help him into attaining a “revolving door” effect. If he pulls this out, he will have achieved half of a decisive outcome: to destroy the bulk of the Red Army and at the same time, the major source of manpower to keep it on the field.

The other half of the decision that Q-Ball needs to achieve in order to win this game – because, to be honest, he has a very good chance of doing so, having the Axis Armies awesome strength levels – is to negate me temporarily or permanently Caucasus oil fields

[center][/center]

M60 is right, it's not “Baku or Bust”. It's more like “Moscow or Bust” and “Baku is Nice in Summer as well if the ticket to get there is cheap enough”. I'm certain I can't stop the two PanzerArmees – that's ludicrous actually – nor fix them as I think I can do in the north – geography and troops aren't the same as around Voronezh. Interesting operational – and strategic – picture. This turn, besides the usual micromanagement to keep the Red Army on the right track, I have to take decisions that might well decide the game for good.

Logistics & Organization

I don't think I'll be able to thank Klydon for his advice to setup a Rifle Division “pipeline”. Things – if they go as I expect – will turn into a major war of attrition... One ingredient – besides using non-phasing player game mechanics to the most and not cooperating with Q-Ball's plans – necessary for the Soviet Union to survive is that of having the ability of throwing into battle the “last battalion”. And for that, I do really need to build in advance a lot of “throwaway” Rifle divisions. I just need to be careful about not throwing too many of them too fast into the bonfire.

Operations

I'm no friend of making quotations of famous individuals but this one – which I've come across while reading Karl-Heinz Frieser “Blitzkrieg Legend” - is something I need to keep in mind at all costs:

ORIGINAL: Alfred Graf Von Schlieffen
A perfect battle, such as Cannae, is rare in the history of warfare. This is because it features, on the one side, a man such as Hannibal, and on the other side, a man such as Gaius Terentius Varro, both of whom, in their own ways, cooperate towards the attainment the greater end.

And this remark – which I find to be quite ironic – is really one thing that applies well into certain situations that arise during WitE Grand Campaign. Especially in 1942, when there are no “shock effects” nor “blizzards” Deus Ex Machina devices interferring with wargaming.

I counterattack on both flanks of Q-Ball schwerpunkt defeating three German divisions – 1 Panzer, 1 Motorized:

[center][/center]

as well as deploying my armies in depth along Q-Ball's most likely axis of attack. I think the separation between each echelon of my defense is “about right”. By placing so many “yummy” guards units on his flank I want to distract him from what I think makes most sense to do: to ignore these screening them with infantry and execute a double envelopment around Voronezh. Either way, I don't think Q-Ball will find easy to breakthrough in depth across my lines.

In the Caucasus I'm not that sure about Q-Ball plans, but just in case I've laid a couple armies covering the approaches to Stalingrad in a hedgehog way, as well as the approaches to Krasnodar

[center][/center]

yes guys, that's perhaps the deepest hedgehog I've ever laid, 70 miles. Sure that good old von Schlieffen - or Guderian, if we look to a closer example - would have hated to find the French Army deployed like that at Sedan