Most of my air groups aren't participating in combat

[Nemo121]

I won't comment on GJ or Rader's experience for obvious reasons.

What I will say is that once the IJNAF and IJAAF get fighters with 2 or more 30mm cannon into action Allied 4E loss rates skyrocket. I've only got small numbers of these fighters but managed an 800 fighters vs 400 B-29 ambush and downed over 100 B-29s if the Intel Screen is to be believed. Of course I had the best radars, best AAA and best pilots and planes in that hex.


1. Nemo was correct: the only sure way to kill 4E's is on the ground. Agreed

2. Under no circumstance can IJ allow any 4E's in range except the B-29. It doesn't matter the cost to push them back, you simply must do it. Meaning in Downfall, you MUST retake Okinawa as IJ just like Nemo did. Actually the primary reason for retaking it was to stop fighter sweeps vs the Home Islands which would prevent me ever building up the mass necessary for a successful CAP vs bombers. That it would remove B-17s from being able to bomb the Home Islands was a nice bonus but very definitely secondary.

3. Kami's are a crucial part of IJ's defense. Agreed. I'd also suggest mass and fighter escorts. Escort 500 kamis with 4-500 fighters and even vs a US deathstar with 1000 fighters on CAP you can get almost every kami through - with the appropriate mix of heights obviously.

[GreyJoy]

Another run of strat bombing....and another "strange" result.... i'm starting to think Rader is right...there seems to be something in the code that makes big battles the less bloody the bigger involved numbers are....
 
Morning Air attack on Gifu , at 110,59
 
Weather in hex: Light cloud
 
Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M3a Zero x 14
      A6M5 Zero x 124
      A6M5c Zero x 9
      A7M2 Sam x 19
      J2M3 Jack x 11
      N1K1-J George x 213
      Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 127
      Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 8
      Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 9
      Ki-84a Frank x 138
      Ki-100-I Tony x 51
      Ki-102b Randy x 7
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Liberator B.III x 16
      Liberator B.VI x 44
      B-24D1 Liberator x 41
      B-24J Liberator x 114
      B-29-1 Superfort x 96
      P-38J Lightning x 25
      P-51B Mustang x 22
      F4U-1 Corsair x 31
      F4U-1A Corsair x 113
      PB4Y-1 Liberator x 48
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
      N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
      Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
      Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Liberator B.VI: 1 damaged
      B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
      B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
      B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed
      F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
      PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
 
 
 
Ki-102b Randy factory hits 13
Ki-44-IIc Tojo factory hits 8
Ki-83 factory hits 34
Ki-44-IIc Tojo factory hits 27
Ki-100-I Tony factory hits 11
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      12 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      12 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      12 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      16 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      12 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      16 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      16 x Liberator B.III bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      13 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      11 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      10 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
 
CAP engaged:
S-901 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (13 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
Yokosuka Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-301 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
S-303 Hikotai with A6M5 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      1 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
S-312 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
263 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
265 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (21 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 21 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-316 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
302 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (12 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-603 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      2 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
345 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (10 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
345 Ku S-2 with J2M3 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
S-306 Hikotai with A6M5c Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      2 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M5 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      2 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Raid is overhead
Soryu-1 with A6M5 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      2 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
Hiyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      3 plane(s) intercepting now.
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
Shoho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
Ryuho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
Taiho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      (7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
 
 
His planes seemed to be in the best possible posituion for a good interception...but the fight lasted only for a couple of shots...
 
I have to say that this doesn't happen when the bombers (no matter the side) arrive unescorted...when they are without the escort the fighters linger a lot more on the preys...while when escort is present it seems like the CAP is always out of position....even when radar works properly and when all the conditions for a good interception are present...
 
 

[Banzan]

I'm pretty sure the combat report show the max. amount of types avaible. For the attacking force its easy, all planes incoming, but the defender has much less directly avaible. The numbers of planes really "intercepting now"is much much lower.
On the other hand, i was sure "X being recalled" stood for planes ordered back because they had no chance on reaching the target till wdolson said something different about it in this thread.

I remeber someone saying that most of the combat report is just for the atmosphere, so without engine details we are just fishing in murky waters. Maybe michaelm can clarify the numbers in the combat report, but it could also been hidden from the designers by intent, aka WAD. [:)]

[rader]

Note that the combat report is often not listing all the groups that should be engaging in combat (i.e., flying CAP in the hex). I don't know if the combat report is merely truncating them from the report (e.g., because it has a maximum length), or if tehy actually aren't engaging in combat because there is an upper limit to how many groups actually can intercept incomming planes.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: rader

Note that the combat report is often not listing all the groups that should be engaging in combat (i.e., flying CAP in the hex). I don't know if the combat report is merely truncating them from the report (e.g., because it has a maximum length), or if tehy actually aren't engaging in combat because there is an upper limit to how many groups actually can intercept incomming planes.

One thing maybe could be a data point .. count your losses and the losses in the CR and post Losses > CR; Losses ~ CR ; or CR > Losses ..

If 1) than the CR is truncating? If 2) than something changed and losses have really gone down? ; If 3) than FOW and losses have really really gone down ..

[GreyJoy]

another raid with suspected very low losses....
 
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 18, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hamamatsu , at 111,61
 
Weather in hex: Overcast
 
Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      A6M3a Zero x 59
      A6M5 Zero x 141
      A6M5c Zero x 16
      A7M2 Sam x 45
      N1K1-J George x 32
      Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 5
      Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 173
      Ki-84a Frank x 17
      Ki-102b Randy x 33
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Liberator B.III x 12
      Liberator B.VI x 41
      B-24D1 Liberator x 23
      B-24J Liberator x 90
      B-29-1 Superfort x 67
      P-38J Lightning x 28
      P-51B Mustang x 37
      F4U-1 Corsair x 30
      F4U-1A Corsair x 66
      PB4Y-1 Liberator x 45
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Liberator B.III: 1 damaged
      Liberator B.VI: 2 damaged
      B-24D1 Liberator: 4 damaged
      B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
      P-51B Mustang: 1 destroyed
      F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
 
 
 
Ki-84a Frank factory hits 17
Ki-100-I Tony factory hits 22
Ki-83 factory hits 2
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      12 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      12 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      10 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      15 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      11 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      15 x Liberator B.VI bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      12 x Liberator B.III bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
      10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       4 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
       3 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
               City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
 
CAP engaged:
S-302 Kokutai with N1K1-J George (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      4 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Raid is overhead
S-309 Hikotai with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
Ominato Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
254 Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
261 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      5 plane(s) intercepting now.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Raid is overhead
265 Ku S-2 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 10 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
      10 planes vectored on to bombers
331 Ku S-1 with A6M5c Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
343 Ku S-2 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
S-351 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
      3 planes vectored on to bombers
1001 Ku U-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
S-311 Hikotai  with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-407 Hikotai  with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
Sasebo Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
      3 planes vectored on to bombers
Kaga-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 20000 and 25000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
      13 planes vectored on to bombers
Soryu-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 10 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 17000 and 26000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
      3 planes vectored on to bombers
Shokaku-1 with A7M2 Sam (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 31000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
Ryujo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 6 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 17000 and 20000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
      2 planes vectored on to bombers
Zuiho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
Ryuho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 13 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 25000.
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
      5 planes vectored on to bombers
 
 
 

It seems that when the raid is big enough with a good escort there's no way the CAP (doesn't matter if allied or japanese) can interfere...

[michaelm75au]

The duration of the interception is a factor of the time of detection, the planes available to intercept and their time to intercept.
Not all planes will participate in combat or will it be a slogging match to 'the last man standing' as in WITP.

If the CAP can 'overcome' the escorts, some CAP can be directed against the bombers rather than engage the CAP ("5 planes vectored on to bombers").

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The duration of the interception is a factor of the time of detection, the planes available to intercept and their time to intercept.
Not all planes will participate in combat or will it be a slogging match to 'the last man standing' as in WITP.

If the CAP can 'overcome' the escorts, some CAP can be directed against the bombers rather than engage the CAP ("5 planes vectored on to bombers").

Michael - Can't there be a happy medium between the two extremes of what we are currently seeing in AE and what you Devs felt was bad in WitP?

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The duration of the interception is a factor of the time of detection, the planes available to intercept and their time to intercept.
Not all planes will participate in combat or will it be a slogging match to 'the last man standing' as in WITP.

If the CAP can 'overcome' the escorts, some CAP can be directed against the bombers rather than engage the CAP ("5 planes vectored on to bombers").

Thanks Micheal,

the problem me and Rader are seeing in our game is that if a big raid gets in coordinated -meaning all the bombers at the same time with a decent escort- (which happens quite a lot of times, especially for the japs) the result is always - and i mean always - a complete defeat for the defender...CAP...even Huge CAP in a level 9 AF, is worthless.
If the same raid goes in unescorted then the CAP becomes effective again.... and it becomes a problem late in the war cause under these conditions the defence of Japan homeland industries becomes almost impossible. At the same time, as i experienced with my CVEs (see above), anything like the Okinawa invasion of RL becomes impossible cause thousands of torpedo bombers will always get through, no matter how much CAP you put above your carriers and your landing TFs....

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Thanks Micheal,

the problem me and Rader are seeing in our game is that if a big raid gets in coordinated -meaning all the bombers at the same time with a decent escort- (which happens quite a lot of times, especially for the japs) the result is always - and i mean always - a complete defeat for the defender...CAP...even Huge CAP in a level 9 AF, is worthless.
If the same raid goes in unescorted then the CAP becomes effective again.... and it becomes a problem late in the war cause under these conditions the defence of Japan homeland industries becomes almost impossible. At the same time, as i experienced with my CVEs (see above), anything like the Okinawa invasion of RL becomes impossible cause thousands of torpedo bombers will always get through, no matter how much CAP you put above your carriers and your landing TFs....

GreyJoy, be careful not to mix up cause and effect here.

From what I am seing in your AAR most (close to all) of your raids are more or less coordinated.

Whether a raid is dissolving into smaller packages in combat animations, or whether the animations
take place in a single huge animation, give you a hint on how the tactical situation was on approach
and attack run.

Imagine the same raid, one as coordinated as the other, but still with significant differences:

Raid A was engaged by perfectly communicating defenders, some fighters diverting the escort and
ripping it apart in slashing attacks, while others ganged up on the bomber formations splitting them
into small groups desperately trying to defend themselves.
The result is a perfect intercept, a couple of combat animations showing the different fates of the groups
scattered by the CAP.

Raid B was attacked by small uncoordinated groups of fighters, ineffectively trying to penetrate the escorts which
expertly kept them away from the bomber formation and so opened the path for a clean bombing run.
The result is one large combat animations which often results in fighters not even able to penetrate the
CAP and attack the bombers.

Thats not coordination. Thats combat dice rolls. For both sides. You are just witnessing two different fates
of the same coordinated attack.

I often see that people who analyse a combat only seek cause and effect on one side of the equatation
(in this case the bombing attack), and fail to see that the dice rolls for a successful intercept are equally
important.

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: michaelm
The duration of the interception is a factor of the time of detection, the planes available to intercept and their time to intercept.
Not all planes will participate in combat or will it be a slogging match to 'the last man standing' as in WITP.

If the CAP can 'overcome' the escorts, some CAP can be directed against the bombers rather than engage the CAP ("5 planes vectored on to bombers").

Thanks Micheal,

the problem me and Rader are seeing in our game is that if a big raid gets in coordinated -meaning all the bombers at the same time with a decent escort- (which happens quite a lot of times, especially for the japs) the result is always - and i mean always - a complete defeat for the defender...CAP...even Huge CAP in a level 9 AF, is worthless.
If the same raid goes in unescorted then the CAP becomes effective again.... and it becomes a problem late in the war cause under these conditions the defence of Japan homeland industries becomes almost impossible. At the same time, as i experienced with my CVEs (see above), anything like the Okinawa invasion of RL becomes impossible cause thousands of torpedo bombers will always get through, no matter how much CAP you put above your carriers and your landing TFs....

As a dedicated long term player I can confirm that some '44 A2A battles consisting of many CAPing fighters battles just seem kind of weird. I reported some time ago an excessive industry damage that simply cannot be defended. Examples like those:

ORIGINAL: viberpol
A week ago similar number of navy bombers (supposed not trained in land bombing too much) attacked Soerabaja (again thunderstorms):
Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 31
J2M3 Jack x 27
N1K1-J George x 14
N1K2-J George x 17
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 34

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 10
F6F-3 Hellcat x 190
SBD-5 Dauntless x 156
TBM-1C Avenger x 113

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-5 Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak
TBM-1C Avenger: 2 damaged

Oil hits 24
Fires 644

...with almost no interaction from Japanese fighters are numerous. This one below is from the latest PBEM game:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Singora at 50,71

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 47 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 298

Allied aircraft
PBY-5A Catalina x 14


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5A Catalina: 7 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CVL Nisshin
CV Kaga, Torpedo hits 1
BB Nagato



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x PBY-5A Catalina launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
Hiryu-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
Shokaku-1 with A6M5b Zero (1 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
Zuikaku-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 14 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
Junyo-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
Shoho-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
Zuiho-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
Taiho-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 1000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 48 minutes
Shinano-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
Unryu-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
Amagi-1 with A6M5b Zero (2 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
Katsuragi-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 15 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 47 minutes
Nisshin-1 with A6M5b Zero (3 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
Mizuho-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
Chiyoda-1 with A6M5b Zero (2 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 29000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
Kaiyo-1 with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 29000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 38500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes

[a save file can be fetched at will]

No previous & no later raid. No packets. (Sorry LoBaron [;)]) Radar present. Almost 300 fighters on CAP. Good detection. Interception time shorter than ETT (47 minutes). And yet... no fighter shot a bullet at those Catalinas!
Maybe we -- old time WITP players accustomed to that old days bloody A2As duels -- are somehow biased towards the current AE model, but my logic says the examples given by many players give credit to introduce some changes...

Last time I wondered if there shouldn't be a special code trigger causing the (Japanese?) fighters fight more aggressively against an enemy trying to get the crucial resources (like CVs or industry?)... Maybe that change would improve the overall "feel" without spoiling the whole air model system... [&:]

[LoBaron]

First battle:
CAP vs. escort fighters roughly 1:2
About 270 bombers
Oil hits 24
Fires 644

What is the issue?


Second battle:
Quite a lot of standby fighters you got there (wonder why).
This, plus airborne CAP at 29k when the cats apporach 19k lower, plus a lucky diceroll and you eat a torp.
Maybe lucky but nothing surprizing considering they are usually ok with torps.

And re: packets: theres a lot of difference between a large scale battle and a small raid, but I guess you know that. [;)]

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

What is the issue?

Second battle:
Quite a lot of standby fighters you got there (wonder why).
This, plus airborne CAP at 29k when the cats apporach 19k lower, plus a lucky diceroll and you eat a torp.
Maybe lucky but nothing surprizing considering they are usually ok with torps.

LoBaron, the issue here in Rader's thread is the low number of really intercepting fighters of CAP that seems mighty.
It's not only he that sees it over and over again IRL PBEMs. I agree with him that there's something weird in his results giving my own examples.

That Soerabaja example was copied from some other thread and is an example where 120 fighters intercept a giant 500-planes raid and only 5 or 6 of them actually shoot at enemy while they should fight to the death over critical resources.

In the Catalina's example there was no A2A combat. I repeat: not a single fighter out of 300 intercepted this incoming attack although the detection range and all times to target & interception times -- all were enough (50% CAP) -- and indicated the Catalinas should get shred to pieces (while some were damaged and destroyed by flak only). This example was to counter your arguments about that what we see as several combat animations of smaller packages (a single huge animation or smaller "cuts") etc.

So while I agree there's actually no chance of a change in the whole A2A combat model, maybe introduction of special triggers to prolong the battle if they too place over critical targets can be possible...

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

What is the issue?

Second battle:
Quite a lot of standby fighters you got there (wonder why).
This, plus airborne CAP at 29k when the cats apporach 19k lower, plus a lucky diceroll and you eat a torp.
Maybe lucky but nothing surprizing considering they are usually ok with torps.

LoBaron, the issue here in Rader's thread is the low number of really intercepting fighters of CAP that seems mighty.
It's not only he that sees it over and over again IRL PBEMs. I agree with him that there's something weird in his results giving my own examples.

That Soerabaja example was copied from some other thread and is an example where 120 fighters intercept a giant 500-planes raid and only 5 or 6 of them actually shoot at enemy while they should fight to the death over critical resources.

In the Catalina's example there was no A2A combat. I repeat: not a single fighter out of 300 intercepted this incoming attack although the detection range and all times to target & interception times -- all were enough (50% CAP) -- and indicated the Catalinas should get shred to pieces (while some were damaged and destroyed by flak only). This example was to counter your arguments about that what we see as several combat animations of smaller packages (a single huge animation or smaller "cuts") etc.

So while I agree there's actually no chance of a change in the whole A2A combat model, maybe introduction of special triggers to prolong the battle if they too place over critical targets can be possible...

Responding to your bolded statements: that kind of thing happened in real life, and it happened to the USN! Notice that the weather was "moderate rain". It seems quite plausible that a raid could slip in, especially a small one like that.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

What is the issue?

Second battle:
Quite a lot of standby fighters you got there (wonder why).
This, plus airborne CAP at 29k when the cats apporach 19k lower, plus a lucky diceroll and you eat a torp.
Maybe lucky but nothing surprizing considering they are usually ok with torps.

LoBaron, the issue here in Rader's thread is the low number of really intercepting fighters of CAP that seems mighty.
It's not only he that sees it over and over again IRL PBEMs. I agree with him that there's something weird in his results giving my own examples.

That Soerabaja example was copied from some other thread and is an example where 120 fighters intercept a giant 500-planes raid and only 5 or 6 of them actually shoot at enemy while they should fight to the death over critical resources.

In the Catalina's example there was no A2A combat. I repeat: not a single fighter out of 300 intercepted this incoming attack although the detection range and all times to target & interception times -- all were enough (50% CAP) -- and indicated the Catalinas should get shred to pieces (while some were damaged and destroyed by flak only). This example was to counter your arguments about that what we see as several combat animations of smaller packages (a single huge animation or smaller "cuts") etc.

So while I agree there's actually no chance of a change in the whole A2A combat model, maybe introduction of special triggers to prolong the battle if they too place over critical targets can be possible...

viberpol, as witpqs mentioned, these things happen. In RL.

If it wasn´t for the fact that I see the air combat model´s ability to represent and display real life situations to a nearly extreme accuracy, I would
long ago have stopped "defending" it (as if it needs defending).

If the explanation in my post #32 wasn´t sufficient I apologize, I really assumed what happened was obvious.

Let me retry:

First battle:
Weather in hex: Thunderstorms
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
CAP vs. escort fighters roughly 1:2
About 270 bombers
Oil hits 24
Fires 644

You are, in all earnesty, asking why there was a problem for the CAP to intercept this strike? If it was for your experience with the
game I´d call that deliberately ignoring information.

You have dice rolls beyond the obvious ones, but the obvious ones already provide you with the worst possible scenario for an intercept.
13 minutes of warning, worst possible weather, still a good coordinated strike that outnumbers the defenders 4:1 in total planes and 2:1
in fighters. If something absolutely miniscule goes wrong in addition I´d expect not a single scratch on my strike. And if I am lucky
even not a single attack on my planes because the reaction time was too short.


Second battle:
Quite a lot of standby fighters you got there (wonder why).
14 planes approaching in moderate rain.
This, plus airborne CAP at 29k when the cats apporach 19k lower, plus a lucky diceroll and you eat a torp.


Again, whats the news? You got an incoming flight, 14 planes only so difficult to intercept in rainy weather, have your fighters airborne at an altitude delta
of 19k compared to the incoming strike, and 80% of your fighters who should fly CAP are on standby.

The only thing that could be criticized is how the game engine handles attacks with planes carrying 2 torps, but that they came through without a scratch until
attack run is nothing astounding.

Rader´s and GreyJoy´s examples were a bit more difficult to read, but I tried to explain the mechanics behind the different results in post #30.

viberpol, no offense, but I need 10 seconds to analyse why your examples are not showing faults of the game engine, but are battle setups that were bound
to end in exactly the realistic results you witnessed. Posting them as examples for an issue is just plain wrong.

[michaelm75au]

I can increase the number of combat rounds when there is a large number of fighters in CAP.

This increases the dogfights without making a lopsided change.

Here is updated EXE.

[LoBaron]

Michael, just out of interest, would this increase combat rounds with short detection
ranges as well?

If I understand this correctly, the ammount of combat rounds is a factor of detection range
and # and attributes of a/c involved. So basically you are increasing the cap on maximum combat rounds possible?

[viberpol]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron -- The Defender of the Air Model [;)]
viberpol, as witpqs mentioned, these things happen. In RL.
The only thing that could be criticized is how the game engine handles attacks with planes carrying 2 torps, but that they came through without a scratch until attack run is nothing astounding.
viberpol, no offense, but I need 10 seconds to analyse why your examples are not showing faults of the game engine, but are battle setups that were bound to end in exactly the realistic results you witnessed. Posting them as examples for an issue is just plain wrong.

LoBaron, no offence taken. [:)]
I forgot that the squadron of Catalinas are jus as swift, as fast and as tiny is size that they cannot be tracked on radar (even if they've got a 47 minutes early warning and descending from 29 k to 19k takes.. hmm... 10 minutes?) and behaved just as the Dauntlesses at Midway... [8|]Ah, and after the attack they are all able to disappear in clouds without even a single contact with 300 defending fighters... [;)] It's not a single squadron, a packet from a bigger battle just overlooked by the defending CAP busy with other raids from different directions...

I am not a native English user so I can have problems communicating clearly what’s boiling in my head… but I am sure I wasn’t asking for your interpretation of the CR. As a long time WITP/AE fan I have the right to speak about my experiences and I am here support Rader’s opinion…

Maybe my examples given above are not well chosen but I can easily present dozens similar to Rader’s. This is just a signal for Devs that maybe (just maybe) there’s something wrong with the code. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's The place. The Tech part of the Forum.

Maybe that’s the bad weather impact on CAP that does not impact the general effectiveness of a raid the same way not limiting the bombing accuracy… I don’t know. But what we know is that sometimes in AE both sides suffer from CAP ineffectiveness. All experienced PBEM players know that. Play a bit longer. Read the AARs. Stop "defending " the model because we're not attacking it. No matter what, we all love AE. [:)] Just commenting on it for the sake of higher playability. [;)]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: ADB123

Think there's something wrong in the system

It's the result of a design over-reaction to a perceived problem with CAP in the original WitP - CAP didn't "leak enough" to satisfy the folks who redesigned WitP into AE, so they overcompensated and now CAP leaks to the point of being a joke.
And don't listen to all of the apologists who make up imaginary scenarios to "explain away" the current really, REALLY bad design of CAP in AE.

Sounds quite right.... however the strange fact is that it seems to me that "sometimes" even the big raid gets butchered (see my previous disaster at Tokyo where i lost 460 planes!!!) but most of the times, when the raid goes in "coordinated" the CAP really seems to do a bad job...
Whenever the raid gets uncoordinated CAP does wonders....when it gets coordinated escort does wonders... there must be a good point in the middle of these two extremes imho...
If this is true...and it's WAD... i think Rader has no chance of having a a/c production at all by 1945... and i, on the opposite, have no chance of land anywhere in Japan...imagine what another coordinated japanese raid could do to my ships if i get close to the coast of japan....

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
The air battles are becoming an issue...both our CAPs are harmless against big strikes...it's a problem....but untill remains a balanced problem (so affecting the both of us) i can live with it.
However i think the Devs should take a look at those saves....Rader sent to Michealm the latest save containing the last air battle...we both think there's something "borked" in the code about this kind of battles....

[LoBaron]

viberpol, sorry I did not want to sound harsh. [:)]

I find this discussion interesting in general, although I am for sure on the "leave it as
it is" faction.

As for the Catalina example: Yes, with the weather situation I imagine exactly this: small attack formations
ducking in and out of clouds and so pretty tough to intercept even when the rest of the variables look good.

But they don´t. I don´t know why you got such an extreme number of standby fighters, for this there is simply
not enough data available. From the combat report it looks very much like you had a prevous engagement or
something similar that required a lot of fighters. You got no scrambling fighters, you got a few being recalled
or out of immediate contact, so the number of fighters at once available to intercept would be rather about
10-15 than 300.

I cannot tell you what happened that lead to this situation obviousely.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Michael, just out of interest, would this increase combat rounds with short detection
ranges as well?

If I understand this correctly, the amount of combat rounds is a factor of detection range
and # and attributes of a/c involved. So basically you are increasing the cap on maximum combat rounds possible?

Only if the CAP is large. And a larger initial rounds due to the higher 'cap', would then be lowered if detection range is low.

And a higher 'cap' to the rounds wont necessarily mean a bloodier battle, as it still needs dice rolls for plane detection, interception, attack, defend, etc.