Will there be any change to production?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21, elmo3

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Gandalf
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by Gandalf »

ORIGINAL: Wild

Of course you don't see Soviet players complaining.They have things to good so there is no need to rock the boat.
I hope your statement about the green button applies to me as your last response was less than useless.

Now, i have enjoyed 2by3's games more than any other company. I own most if not all of them. I have always thought Joel very helpful and pleasent when he has responded to any of my issues.
But in this case nobody responds to the Axis players concerns except to deny that there is any validity to our complaints.

Would it hurt to throw us a bone. How hard would it be to let us create some small independent units for some AP cost or to be able to change tank types within reason like we can with planes. Most German players are getting frustrated because they can't get armor out of their pools when they are needed.
It really saps a lot of the fun of an already scripted German side.


+1

I purchased this game in a knee jerk reaction when it was first released since I believed it could have been the worthy successor to the original War In the East/War In Europe board game. I no longer believe this game rates that worthy title and have absolutely no intention to purchase Grigsby's WitE when it come out since it obviously will be based on similar design limitations/flaws. Just my $.02

Clumsy manual boardgame or not. I derived much more pleasure with the simplicity of that original SPI design than this flawed and overly complex one sided design being offered up as a computerized replacement.
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Aurelian
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Wild
ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Both sides go through TOE changes for example.

Don't see many, if any, Soviet players complaining "My big tank divisions changed into tiny brigades. OMG the pro Axis game design!!!"

The constant accuasations leveled at 2by3 et al are more than getting old.

Thank the forum makers for the green button.

Of course you don't see Soviet players complaining.They have things to good so there is no need to rock the boat.
I hope your statement about the green button applies to me as your last response was less than useless.


Yeah, sure, they have it so good.

Jump on the bash 2by3 bandwagon if you wish.

It would serve you well to look at your posts before you sling about the word useless. (Which is funny after reading your oh so helpful musings.)

But, it is so much easier to whine.

And insult those who don't see things your way.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Wild
But in this case nobody responds to the Axis players concerns except to deny that there is any validity to our complaints.

Because not even amongst the Axis players, there is agreement that these are truly concerns. I am predominantly an Axis player, and although Pelton and Heliodrus do have an occasional point, I see things often in much more favorable light and disagree with many of their opinions. However, the way Pelton and Helio state things, especially this time, really hurts the cause.

Having a game option to play with fixed production or allow players on both sides to manipulate factories, and R&D as done in WitP/AE for the Japanese would add a huge factor to the game, and something I dearly miss from old WiR or AE. It allows more reason/fun for the German player to hang on, either just for playing with new toys, or hoping (in futility) to change something to prevent the outcome. I believe this is a key why many players in WitP play the Japanese side, although they know that they still will be whipped in almost every case -- it is a different sort of fun, derived from the way, rather than the goal of the game. Hopefully future titles in this series will start to introduce this, until hopefully one day a War in Europe will really be done that gives a full production system on par with AE.

A lot of all the discussions about Axis versus Soviet benefits are based on opinions and expectations. For example the "C&C benefits". What do exactly you expect, how should "superior C&C" manifest?
AP cost for reassigning divisions is a paper act, and could ideally be cheap for both sides. But administration is something that the Germans did not really excel in. Yet it is what Helio is upset about. What is missing is the consequences from reassigning, that for a turn or so the administrative machine or reserve functions don't run as smoothly anymore until all the new communications are worked out and extra penalties apply to supply etc. Here the Germans could even be a little better off. However, that whole area is not implemented.
This does not mean that German C&C is worse, or that they have been given a disadvantage, but administration is made more difficult (although even for that a good argument was made). The devs could lower that, but then also the AP pools should be lowered to adjust to a corresponding level -- and I prefer it the way it actually is as I will have more flexibility/AP for other jobs (fort zone building, HQ build-up, motorization, support unit shuffling, etc.). However, fairer would likely be adjusting it down, which would unfortunately mean removing one Axis benefit.

What is implemented very definitely is superior German generalship, manifesting in some 10-20% better dice rolls on average (see the thread by... a short while ago). And that is what is claimed historically; although there is of course no direct way to project the soft claim of "better generalship and C&C" onto exact quantifiers (say Gen'ls ratings from 1-10) that then again must be converted by some function into specific effects, be it in linear or exponential or whatever fashion. You can design such a function so that a just 1 pt./10% better leader rating leads to no benefit at all, or amplifies all benefits by an order of magnitude. For example those ~15% better chances for successful dice rolls apply to so many areas, from supply to combat, that the effect adds up to a significant benefit beyond these 15% (i.e. it is a non-linear problem). I think they are clearly visible looking at average MP or combat bonuses.
But what exactly is your expectation of "better" here? Do you expect a third world army that will start running at the sight of a grey uniform? Or were the Russians perhaps in their core, despite the Stalinist cleansing of the officers corps, an organized, professional army that was just caught off-balance in the initial phase? As such, I believe, the benefits are there, and they are very reasonable. The Germans were no supermans after all, and neither were the Russians absolute starters in this business.

It would also be an added-value to be allowed to create some corps HQ, support units and maybe even some divs as German, or prevent the auto-rebuild of destroyed ones (the latter is indeed a source of gamey-ness as I believe Pelton correctly identified). Also things like the changing of slots for tanks and equipment, like it is already implemented for planes, would be a nice features. If I understand the production model correctly, average rates have been implemented in this game. Then one catch would be the relationship to real-life rates, that probably peaked or steadily rose to plateau levels. So initially, the "averaged model" must produce more, and later lower numbers, meaning that initially the pool will for a while have tanks that shouldn't be there IRL. So maybe the true underlying problem may not be having tanks in the pools we cannot assign, but the fact that those tanks don't even belong there that early.

Seems like some things in this game in this game, such as production model, supply treatment, or the lack of reaction mechanics for the defender, are just very crude compared to the love to detail represented in the combat engine and in so many other aspects, and that of course forms a stark and annoying contrast. On the other hand, this is a niche game and as such it will already have to be more expensive even at identical quality compared to a mass-market title; asking for a state-of-the-art gem like AE to be produced in one shot would probably mean having to abide with a price that would be a factor higher. So for a reasonable cost, I feel this product provides a reasonable value.
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invernomuto
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by invernomuto »

ORIGINAL: janh
Because not even amongst the Axis players, there is agreement that these are truly concerns. I am predominantly an Axis player, and although Pelton and Heliodrus do have an occasional point, I see things often in much more favorable light and disagree with many of their opinions. However, the way Pelton and Helio state things, especially this time, really hurts the cause.

STANDING OVATION!
I couldn't say it better.
They occasionally have good points, but spamming every discussion with the statement "the game il broken" or insulting the devs asking for a change it's not a clever thing to do.

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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by KamilS »

janh

A lot of all the discussions about Axis versus Soviet benefits are based on opinions and expectations. For example the "C&C benefits". What do exactly you expect, how should "superior C&C" manifest?


I expect "superior C&C" manifest as a superior C&C.

Most of German Corps and most Armies are overloaded (after 11th army leaves situation gets really bad) what leads to using Romanian and Italian HQ to accommodate German units. If it is superior C&C I dread to think how inferior looks like.
janh

What is implemented very definitely is superior German generalship, manifesting in some 10-20% better dice rolls on average (see the thread by... a short while ago)


It is only true if both sides have their HQ not overloaded and Germans can achieve it only in '41. In '42 situation is more less even for both sides and in '43 Soviet C&C is much better.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.



I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.


EXACTLY the point that I am trying to make with my five-year-old granddaughter. I have high hopes that she will get the idea soon. [:D]
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

If only some comments were just destructive... but they are self-destructive. I feel embarassed about some of you. Relax, this is just a G A M E.

Pompack, you got all wrong, it's YOU who will be dancing to your granddaughter's tune... It's funny to see what 3, 4 years old can do (already saw that with my little niece) [:D]
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

If only some comments were just destructive... but they are self-destructive. I feel embarassed about some of you. Relax, this is just a G A M E.

I fear that it will continue until some the ban stick is swung a few times.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: Pelton


The game far far better for sure, but the stick it to the Germans is still the redneck mind set of 2 by 3.



I'm sorry, but this is so insulting. You really think we are a bunch of redneck minds sitting here thinking of how to stick it to the Germans? Really? I have to admit when I see this kind of post it takes away any motivation to read the rest of the post and often the rest of the thread and I'm sure there are others that are working on WitE that feel the same way.

Funny, but rednecks are more generally pro-Nazi, than pro-Soviet. Obviously, Pelton's characterization of 2x3 is completely off-base, in addition to being insulting. I've met Joel, and he's one of the nicest guys (with incredibly thick-skin) you could know. Think of Steve Jobs without the ego, yet with the patience of the Dalai Lama and a reasonably manly beard. That's him in a nutshell.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Yeah, sure, they have it so good.

Jump on the bash 2by3 bandwagon if you wish.

It would serve you well to look at your posts before you sling about the word useless. (Which is funny after reading your oh so helpful musings.)

But, it is so much easier to whine.

And insult those who don't see things your way.

You can all count your blessings: I've bought a new strategy game and my time here is about done.

But it should be noted that I didn't turn into an a$$hat in a vacuum. Many of you drove me to it by being completely unmovable by any argument that didn't scream of outrageously well-composed and emotionally-laden prose.

Frankly, I feel that the community suffers from homogeneity of thought. Those who don't align to that group-think get labeled as troublemakers who need to be corrected about their misunderstandings of history (apparently one of mine is that the Soviets were better strategic commanders than the Germans in 1941 - who knew?!?). No post generates as much opposition on these boards as "X is a problem in the game." In particular, the coterie of players who favor the Soviet gameplay experience to the German shriek like a murder of crows whenever someone points out the built-in-by-design aspects of the game that convey superiority to the Soviets irrespective of German strategic choices. Those are the people that are destroying the community, not me. They are empowered with the ability to be denigrating to the opinions of others and enabled in doing so. They may not use the two-dollar words that I do, but they hate people like me nonetheless. And because listening to them over me implies less need to do rework on WitE, it's easy for Matrix designers to agree with them. Self-interest aligns to that agreement.

The playtesting community is, I suspect, too beholden to the developers for access to be able to criticize them when they see truly egregious problems in design. How else can one explain the fact that upon release, the 1942 German infantry TOE change reduced their effectiveness horrifically because the TOE change triggered an automatic experience drop (which was unintended). I remember those heady days of 1 year ago.

As I said recently: that you all will go to such effort to defend the indefensible (like Soviet command superiority) leads me to conclude that you're either unable to practice metacognition (the act of thinking about the source for your beliefs and then determining whether the sources are valid; if they are not then the beliefs may not be valid), or you're entirely happy with this product as is.

I can't necessarily conclude that I'm smarter than those of you who will defend these awful design consequences. So I must conclude that this product makes you happy. I've tried to explain to you why this product makes me UNhappy, and you respond by ignoring me, trying to undermine me as a thinker, or reacting to my tone without bothering to address my meaning. So you like the game, and either you dislike me, you dislike my message, or you just don't care to consider alternative possibilities. Whichever of those 3 alternatives is the case, I have to conclude that my continuing investments of energy into making others aware of and bringing them to agreement with my perspectives is a pointless waste of both that same energy, and my irreplaceable time.

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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

If only some comments were just destructive... but they are self-destructive. I feel embarassed about some of you. Relax, this is just a G A M E.

I fear that it will continue until some the ban stick is swung a few times.
I don't know how much that would help. There are enough people with martyr complexes constantly handwringing over the game as it is. No need to actually make them so, by banning them. Just leave the gate unlocked and they'll wander out to pasture on their own...[;)]
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by darbycmcd »

I would also add that the hysterical and ill-defined complaints are not without broader impacts. I know 3 people in just my little wargame circle that have not bought this game because they got the impression from the forum that it was broken. I pointed out that it is basically just the same 2-3 people with a small chorus of supporters who just repeat the whine of the day, but the number of threads that get spammed about percieved problems in the game have put them off.

For sure there are some good points made by these folks occasionally, but for the most part the complaints are just that Germany can't win in the way they think they should. There is a lack of historical operational knowledge and most damning a lack of testing. Really at this point there should be more playing and less complaining. It is the same process that WitP went through, but there the community worked to weed out cancerous forum members as well as game-play bugs. There are people with expectations about this game that will not be met, for instance Heliodorus. It is at heart an historical game, which means the Germans are screwed. It takes a Soviet player as incompetant as Stalin to give you the game you would want.

So lets focus on mechanics that need some work, such as aspects of the air war, high ROF weapons, etc and do it with some meaningful testing and respectful comments in a collegial atmosphere. Heliodorus, you think the game is a way for the game designers to become fabulously wealthy at your expense, that is your right. Please feel free to leave the forum and be bitter. Pelton, you think the game designers are a bunch of rednecks who don't appreciate the awesome magesty that was the Wehrmact, ok, you should move on to greener pastures. Otherwise, why dont you make more constructive input.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

If only some comments were just destructive... but they are self-destructive. I feel embarassed about some of you. Relax, this is just a G A M E.

I fear that it will continue until some the ban stick is swung a few times.
I don't know how much that would help. There are enough people with martyr complexes constantly handwringing over the game as it is. No need to actually make them so, by banning them. Just leave the gate unlocked and they'll wander out to pasture on their own...[;)]

You're probably right.

The green button helps. But then you could miss a post that is actually constructive.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by Q-Ball »

I personally don't think there is any bias here by 2 by 3, other than a bias toward getting the game right.

But this takes lots of time, and data. As darbymcd points out, it took WITP-AE about 5 years to be close to "right". The first product out of the box had huge balance issues, but was still fun to play, because it was a game. Occasionally, stuff would happen like 500,000 Chinese troops taking Singapore, but that was noted and fixed in later versions. Along the way, the WITP forums occasionally burst into flames way worse than this one. It's actually more civil over here.

It's a game, it's going to take time to make this engine closer to reality. But it's fun in the meantime hopefully.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by ajds »

This is a terrific computer game. Best computer simulation of the eastern front I have ever seen (I have been playing computer games since Pong), and a worthy successor to the lo-res original. References to Europa make me smile, as FITE/SE has its problems (trucks and NODLs anyone?). It could be better, like anything. If you are reading this and think you can do better, I encourage you to do so (elsewhere and on your own time). Provide constructive criticism if you wish, otherwise shut your piehole. If you want research and production, go play Hearts of Iron.
Aurelian
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's a game, it's going to take time to make this engine closer to reality. But it's fun in the meantime hopefully.

Certainly is for me. I have yet to win as the Russian, (so much for the pro Russian bias leveled by the disgruntled.) But I learned something each time.

Biggest thing I learned, don't run for the hills. What worked in the boardgame WiTE doesn't work here.

A few other things too. Like the manual supply of partisans. What to refit. What not to. What factories to move and when. (Doesn't always work the way I hope.) Managing the VVS. Getting a handle on factory raids. (Hopefully).

Most important, at least IMHO. It's a long game. It isn't going to be won in the first year.

I don't really care about winning. What I do care about is playing as best I can.


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KamilS
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by KamilS »

ajds

If you want research and production, go play Hearts of Iron.


Or play as a Soviet [;)]


btw I dread to think how much time I spent playing multiplayer in HoI2 and AoD.
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RCHarmon
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by RCHarmon »

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

I would also add that the hysterical and ill-defined complaints are not without broader impacts. I know 3 people in just my little wargame circle that have not bought this game because they got the impression from the forum that it was broken. I pointed out that it is basically just the same 2-3 people with a small chorus of supporters who just repeat the whine of the day, but the number of threads that get spammed about percieved problems in the game have put them off.

For sure there are some good points made by these folks occasionally, but for the most part the complaints are just that Germany can't win in the way they think they should. There is a lack of historical operational knowledge and most damning a lack of testing. Really at this point there should be more playing and less complaining. It is the same process that WitP went through, but there the community worked to weed out cancerous forum members as well as game-play bugs. There are people with expectations about this game that will not be met, for instance Heliodorus. It is at heart an historical game, which means the Germans are screwed. It takes a Soviet player as incompetant as Stalin to give you the game you would want.

So lets focus on mechanics that need some work, such as aspects of the air war, high ROF weapons, etc and do it with some meaningful testing and respectful comments in a collegial atmosphere. Heliodorus, you think the game is a way for the game designers to become fabulously wealthy at your expense, that is your right. Please feel free to leave the forum and be bitter. Pelton, you think the game designers are a bunch of rednecks who don't appreciate the awesome magesty that was the Wehrmact, ok, you should move on to greener pastures. Otherwise, why dont you make more constructive input.



This is a perfect example of bias. You say the Axis demand to win.....wrong.....just a historically believable game. You state that Axis players really want leveraged play, again untrue. You say that the Axis player should not expect Stalin, yet the Axis player must still conform to Hitler. Cannot you get it, we want Hitler removed also.

He states the Axis is screwed so get used to it. All the many blunders and mistakes made by Hitler cannot be reversed. There is nothing that can be changed. When Hitler attacked it was as good as over. This makes my point, why make such a game? Why would anybody play such a game?

I am done with this game myself.
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by darbycmcd »

Ok, RCH what is historically unbelievable? Honestly, vanishingly fiew complaints I hear are about historical plausibility, but rather playability. There are mechanics that are flawed, but the results are usually not outside the realm of historical. For instance, losses in retreat are perhaps too high for high experience units. But the overall results seem to be within a range that is supported by historical examples. Please tell us what is impossible with this game. Frankly, most of the complaints about combat results are 90% because of lack of understanding of basic combat theory. And please show how you must conform to Hitler's operational dictates? Have you been forced to stand your ground in the blizzard? Occupy and hold cities no matter the operational context? Anything????

Ok, I think what you mean is that you want German production. Don't get so hyperbolic about it and say what you mean. I agree it would be nice, but how important is it really? How big are your pools of equipment and how many SU would that translate to? I think people are bitching about 5-7 arty bns. Does anyone have enough tanks in the pools to equip a couple panzer divisions? and then support them? lets just leave it at doubtful. so what would be the meaningful end result of a massive programming change.... really not much.
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RCHarmon
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RE: Will there be any change to production?

Post by RCHarmon »

Production is not my biggest concern. The number one concern is moral. Moral increases or decreases should be dependent on lost or gained cities and not predetermined. This is clear bias. Not accusations no insults just a plain fact. That system is indefensible. How important is moral in this game?


There have been posts about wanting something more to fight for. Why don't we fight for cities. Gaining cities increases moral and who would give up a city knowing that they would take moral hits. If you want the battles to have more purpose and meaning well there you go.

The ability to just group certain types of units together and get moral bonuses doesn't make any sense to me either.
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