Over 1100 Panzers lost in a single turn!!!

[karonagames]

They do go back to the pool, and some progress has been made on SUs, as the reinforcement schedule now includes no-historical "shell" jagdpanzer units that can be filled up with excess Hetzers/Stg/Jagdpanthers; I think they arrive in late 44.

[Denniss]

The game engine has on oversize reduction function, if any component of a unit (say specific rifle squads or armored cars) is above 125% of it's component TOE then a certain part will be sent back to pool until the component TOE reaches 125% or sligthly below.
This works for all ground elements and vehicles but not for aircraft.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: veji1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: veji1

I
Of course as Aurelian cleverly points out everytime, "this is what the editor is for whiners." Nevertheless we all know that nothing replace an actual changing and patching of the official release...

Can you show where I say that every time? I can't recall.

But you right about one thing. That is one reason there is an editor. Though I can't recall pointing that out.

But what you are unaware of something else. Or just plain ignore it.

The TOE changes are set in stone for this game. Not my decision, as I have nothing to do with any part of the design or development. Since it isn't a bug, it's off the radar.

All one has to do is two things. First, understand that the game has been out for a year. And despite the complaining, TOEs haven't changed.

Second, read the forums. Save's one alot of useless angst. Like "Why can't Axis build support units."

Here ya go: tm.asp?m=3055488&mpage=1&key=?

"If you really want to play an "historically based" fantasy game where the Germans fight the Red Army to a standstill while the Western Allies sweep across Germany, be my guest but don't expect me to change the TOE upgrades so you can indulge that fantasy; that's what you have an editor for."

Said by......wait for it......jaw. Funny how you forgot that. Especially considering you qouted him.

You doing it yourself would insure that *you* get what you want.

No offense Aurelian, it was just a tongue in cheek comment. I am glad to be reassured that OKH actually bothering to get 1100 functionning on trains to be brought back to Germany to be then cut to pieces, molten and than used as pitch forks and hammers is completely WAD... pfiouu for a moment I had a doubt.

Umm, they go back to the pool. Glad you are reassured that it WAD. Started to have some doubts.

[AFV]

ORIGINAL:  Schmart
Another (most likely unintended) by-product of this hard coded TOE reduction, is that in the case of AFVs, any obsolete tanks will vanish into the pools and not be used, as the first tanks to go will be those that are no longer in production. As an extreme example, the German player could have 100's of Panther Ds still in Panzer units, but with a TOE reduction most would go to the pool and not be used, as they are no longer in production in 1945 and therefore are considered to be 'obsolete', because unfourtunately the AFV (and aircraft) replacement/upgrade routines are not fine tuned (nor adaptable to in game realities). The game would only accept Panther Gs as acceptable replacements in 1945. Just another argument for allowing manual upgrades/changing of AFVs by the player.

Back into the pool, apparently to not be used.
 
Aurelian- Its broken, its a clumsly design, and as several have posted, available manpower and equipment dictated TOES, not visa versa. The fact that you think its WAD, and there is not room for improvement, speaks volumes.

[darbycmcd]

Schmart, in your example, wouldn't the units take D replacements if that is what they were currently using? I am fairly sure (but not totally) that this is the way it works. I think you mean the problem is that once the units upgrade to G, there could be lots of D models sitting in storage as the G's get depleted. But the manual specifically says it checks for the possibility of downgrading at a certain TOE level, so have you seen this problem in action? I never have as I have very few tanks left by 45 usually!

And AFV, just a point of order, the game is WAD and is therefore not broken. But you may argue that it is bad design of course. At least give credit to the game designers that, while you may agree with their decisions (legitimately), they made them for rational reasons. Personally I think this is pretty much tempest in a teacup type stuff, but I can understand your perspective.

[Zebedee]

Fully agree that the issues with divisional establishments could be resolved with something as simple as being able to delay a scheduled ToE upgrade (simple only in concept, not simple in terms of adding it into the game). Modding will likely be my route once game stabilises enough for it to be worth doing. Disagree with a number of design decisions which depend upon historical outcomes to make sense. It is what it is. At least these things can be modded I guess.

Some are overly paranoid about some kind of pro-Soviet bias to the game. As far as I can see, it seems to boil down mainly to a conflict between sources being used. The more recent, which took advantage of those Yeltsin years where the archives were open, have given new slants on the post-war memoirs from the German side which gave the foundations for literature on the Eastern Front for 40 years. When, on the very first turn, you can gain 10/12 weeks by wiping out a significant proportion of the Red Army, it's not a sign that a game is somehow slanted against the Axis-only player. Personally, I play both sides with equal incompetence. Balance is all. Some decisions have obviously been taken to try and balance out other decisions.

[veji1]

Indeed this is not about bias but about a simple toggle as is done for ship upgrades in WITP-AE (and WITP already). Just toggle yes or no to upgrades... a German player doing well might toggle no for all his units... most german players at some point would have to toggle yes for most of their units..just gives them a simple tool to adjust to the state of their forces / pool.

[kg_1007]

While I have taken the side of the original poster, I do not see the game as "biased" either..if anything it has been a backwards compliment to the "axis" side by creating many cheats, if you will, to help the Red Army side(magically removing itself from encirclements is probably my favorite, with this TOE issue being a distant second).
As far as being simple to correct this issue(TOE) I would assume that since they already have something close as mentioned above, in WiTP, as well as even in this game, with aircraft, I do not think it should be a huge problem to fix..the magical ability of the Soviets to remove encircled troops, on the other hand, might be difficult..I will have to see though, if the Axis player has the same ability(in which case, it would be an aid to the AI, not to the "Soviet" side, per se)

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

..the magical ability of the Soviets to remove encircled troops, ...

Warping out of pockets is considered a bug so if anyone has a save file just before it happens then post it in the Tech Support Forum. We are eliminating this bug as examples are posted.

[kg_1007]

Ah, I see first thing when I look, that there is new patch released. One of fixes is said to be this "warp out of pocket" issue..
And thank you for the advice, I normally hate to complain or send file saying"this game you worked so hard on has major issue" lol, but I will do so if I see again.

[Joel Billings]

We've fixed several different warp out of pocket bugs over the past year. No one fix fixes all of these situations because the AI has many different routines, any one of which can end up causing a clearly illegal move if not coded correctly. This is why we always need saves to fix the bugs. With a save, Gary can identify the bad routine and fix it. He does not believe he has fixed all of these bad warp moves, but he's probably fixed a very large percentage of them since release, and every one where we have a save.