When there is no real northern border....

[James Ward]

You could solve the north edge problem by removing the rail crossing at Saratov and putting it in Stalingrad. It would be very difficult to continue to advance in the North without a supply route close by

[LiquidSky]

I think a better solution would be to use an event that gives the Russians Zhukov's army that he used in Operation Mars at Rhzev as they probably would have used that to hit the thin lines of the Germans in the North (of the case blue map). You could even give the Germans a couple of divisions from Army Group Centre as they were tied down by that offensive. That way, the Germans have a choice..they can expand their effort in the south by going for Saratov as well, but at the expense of 500k more Russians entering the map.

[Bonners]

Just o add something else to this debate, I really think that the Axis objectives really dont help with this. I'm afraid I'm not near the game now so dont remember the names, but I've had two objectives now that have forced me to cross the Don below Voronezh and sweep North Eastwards in force. I had just taken the first objective and decided to withdraw from it to a shorter line when I got the orders for the second one even further North East pushing towards Saratov. Now, I'm playing against the AI and although I dont want to replicate Case Blue I would still like to get a flavour of the actual campaign. So I will do the same again, take the obj and then withdraw to my defensive line I've already decided on.

The trouble is, it is a stage of the game (middle of August) when the Russians are at their weakest, if I was playing a human player would I really want to give up those objectives or would I be tempted to push on to the northern border and Saratov? Hmmm...

I definitely think some tinkering is needed around the edges of this. You cant really blame somebody in a human vs human game going for the north when there are a succession of objectives pointing them in that direction and by moving the forces needed back south may end up giving the Russian a valuable breathing space. If it was me, rather than bringing down more forces from Moscow fronts (which may unbalance the game the other way) I would just say have an arbitrary cut off line for where objectives will be on the northern edge of the map. Yes OKH and Hitler would get more ambitious, but surely this would still be within the confines of Case Blue, going for earlier objectives down south and also the area around Stalingrad.

I'll look fully at the may when I get home, but if you follow the Don on the east bank down from Voronezh there is a railway line that leads virtually directly to Stalingrad. Now that and a few hexes east of it say (to protect the supply route) does seem a reasonable area to have northern objective, I just dont reckon it should go much further north form that line.

If you still get human players taking the northern edge of the map then at least they will not be getting any prestige points for it and it owuld hopefully mean that they are missing out on points to the south.

Having said all that, it is only a minor point in the overall game (although I'm sure it could be come a major point in human vs human games), I'm still having an absolute blast at this game! My first ever PC strategy game campaign (excluding Panzer Corps), just reached the middle of August and am thoroughly addicted[&o]

[Redmarkus5]

My only complaint would be with a player using the map edge as a secure flank - pushing his main force all the way along the top of the map. That would go beyond gamey. A standard drive from anywhere else on the map, even 6-7 hexes from the top, towards Saratov is fine by me.

[Keunert]

one possible way to prevent an exploitation of the northern border could be a modified Dyle point mechanic: on a certain hex area the axis has to have a certain amount of troops or else this will trigger additional reinforcements for the soviets or the okh puts an axis army to the reserve .

[olivier34]

Good idea Keunert. In our game I have the 2A there with another corps attached to and a hungarian corps has well. I have move a few units east to see where you have built your line of defense. (I have to do it because your air fighters have shot down my recon planes [:@]).