Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I can see that as possible. Planes would go into the pool and then the next turn the new parent, as long as they are supplied, draws planes and pilots from the pool.

All the 100+ AC stuck at Darwin was magically gone this turn. I reconned the other 2 bases on the rail and they are empty too. As I said before this is not the first time that has happened. Rather the 50th time. I actually asked Erik how he manged it.

I also said that if he is doing what I think he is I´m not too happy about it. Its certainly "creative use" of the engine and quite a fair stretch from reality to being able to teleport them away. If the AC gets returned to the pool instead of being destroyed as I suspect that is actually kind of abusive imo.

Right or wrong?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Nice sig Joc.  That list is impressive to me.  I'm not far behind you and don't have one CV on it.

Thank you! [:)] Unfortunately there are six more sunk CVs that are not on that list... [:(]

[DOCUP]

I got 6 on mine that I don't want to talk about either.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I can see that as possible. Planes would go into the pool and then the next turn the new parent, as long as they are supplied, draws planes and pilots from the pool.

All the 100+ AC stuck at Darwin was magically gone this turn. I reconned the other 2 bases on the rail and they are empty too. As I said before this is not the first time that has happened. Rather the 50th time. I actually asked Erik how he manged it.

I also said that if he is doing what I think he is I´m not too happy about it. Its certainly "creative use" of the engine and quite a fair stretch from reality to being able to teleport them away. If the AC gets returned to the pool instead of being destroyed as I suspect that is actually kind of abusive imo.

Right or wrong?

I took my current game and reproduced what you are discussing. I did not test damaged aircraft ... just undamaged and sure enough they all ended up in the aircraft pool -- the main unit able to add aircraft that turn if aircraft were in the pools.

I am a proponent the WitP AE is simply a game, and WitP AE is a similation of WWII warfare as much as a Civil War Chess set represents the American Civil War.[:'(] BB firing main ammo at low quality targets, air raid detection at the target not the first possible sighting, routing units teleporting through rough jungle hexes .. need I say more? It is a very slippery slope once the home rules start.

Others will have a differing opinion .. [;)]

My own take is that a virtual process is taking place abstracting planes getting destroyed and being replaced .. and the eventual goal of forcing the airframes out is being accomplished. Albeit, I admit in a very "creative" way. In reality, just like the unlimited supply of the WC -- the IJ have pretty much enough airframe proudction that killing aircraft does not mean much ..the real focus might be on getting the bases required to force victory knowing that airframes will teleport like retreating ground units [8D]

My .02 ..

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I can see that as possible. Planes would go into the pool and then the next turn the new parent, as long as they are supplied, draws planes and pilots from the pool.

All the 100+ AC stuck at Darwin was magically gone this turn. I reconned the other 2 bases on the rail and they are empty too. As I said before this is not the first time that has happened. Rather the 50th time. I actually asked Erik how he manged it.

I also said that if he is doing what I think he is I´m not too happy about it. Its certainly "creative use" of the engine and quite a fair stretch from reality to being able to teleport them away. If the AC gets returned to the pool instead of being destroyed as I suspect that is actually kind of abusive imo.

Right or wrong?

I took my current game and reproduced what you are discussing. I did not test damaged aircraft ... just undamaged and sure enough they all ended up in the aircraft pool -- the main unit able to add aircraft that turn if aircraft were in the pools.

I am a proponent the WitP AE is simply a game, and WitP AE is a similation of WWII warfare as much as a Civil War Chess set represents the American Civil War.[:'(] BB firing main ammo at low quality targets, air raid detection at the target not the first possible sighting, routing units teleporting through rough jungle hexes .. need I say more? It is a very slippery slope once the home rules start.

Others will have a differing opinion .. [;)]

My own take is that a virtual process is taking place abstracting planes getting destroyed and being replaced .. and the eventual goal of forcing the airframes out is being accomplished. Albeit, I admit in a very "creative" way. In reality, just like the unlimited supply of the WC -- the IJ have pretty much enough airframe proudction that killing aircraft does not mean much ..the real focus might be on getting the bases required to force victory knowing that airframes will teleport like retreating ground units [8D]

My .02 ..

Thank you for trying it out and confirming it! Erik and I have been playing this game under the premise we keep it plausible. Perhaps its not the biggest deal in the world but he has saved a lot of AC this way. Besides robbing me of the points he also avoids having to spend HI manufacturing replacment engines and planes.

Its just rubbing me the wrong way. Its just "game". Kind of amazed he hasn´t at least asked me if I thought it okay when he discovered how to do this? Or is this something everyone does and I didn´t know of it? [&:]

[paullus99]

I would definitely say that's a very "gamey" use of the engine & not the indications of a very "fair" player.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

I would definitely say that's a very "gamey" use of the engine & not the indications of a very "fair" player.

+1.
I did not know about it and from his reply, it appears NY59 Giants did not know about it either.
It changes the whole risk/reward assessment that a player should be doing before putting assets on the front line. If he knows that he can save the units regardless of the airfield being shut down, it gives a whole new freedom to take risks. It just changes the game dynamic too much, unless you both feel that 4E bombers have too big an advantage in the game too.

[Crackaces]

when he discovered how to do this? Or is this something everyone does and I didn´t know of it?

I do not think everybody does this.. and it is a frustrating hole of sorts in the engine. Personally .. I discovered this software behavior while withdrawing fragmented units and noted that they all gathered in the pool, and noted in my mind a strategy of getting "trapped air units" out of trouble using this paradigm. I alerted my opponent of the behavior and got gentlemen's agreement that this was harmful to the game's flow. If he waits a week to refill fragmented squadrons I would be amiable to that ..

But ... what if the unit in the midst of such a situaiton is due to withdraw? Would you allow that? Would you allow planes that are withdrawing into the pools immediately be drawn into service for units with room to refill? [This is an allied situaiton with the 4E's in 1942 - 1943] Thus my comment of a slipperly slope...

It is why I like the Moose's game .. whatever the engine doles out .. but as I see Palus comment .. there is a specturm from a futile effort to make the engine a perfect replay of history all the way to a no rules "knife" fight ... finding an opponent with the same value system is tough ...

Point it out .. and if this is a deal breaker make a stand ...

my .02

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

I took my current game and reproduced what you are discussing. I did not test damaged aircraft ... just undamaged and sure enough they all ended up in the aircraft pool -- the main unit able to add aircraft that turn if aircraft were in the pools.

Hi Jocke,

I hope you don't mind that I still pop into your AAR on occasion to keep an eye on you.

I just wanted to comment on what you are experiencing here. In my experience, whenever I've tried disbanding/withdrawing fragments of air units consisting soley of damaged planes they are destroyed. I don't disband/withdraw undamaged planes simply because I fly them to another base. If undamaged, why would Erik disband/withdraw in the first place? All he needs to do is simply re-base the aircraft. My guess is Erik is flying off the undamaged aircraft to another base in the rear and disbanding the fragments left with damaged aircraft, which means they are in fact being destoyed/lost.

Also, if he's using the railway to withdraw units to Darwin say, then they will disappear for the length of time it takes to reach their destination. This could explain why the aircraft appear to have vanished. Check recon of Darwin next turn to see if there are aircraft there. Also, is there a chance that Erik is loading these damaged aircraft on transport ships at Darwin? That is another possibility and might explain why they are not visible during the air phase having already been loaded during the naval phase.

I'd check with him first. I don't get the sense he's the type of player to game the system. If so, then state your case and I'm sure he'll address the issue. If he is disbanding damaged aircraft then I think he is definitely losing the planes. I honestly don't see how disbanding undamaged aircraft would be a smart tactic or anything to worry about actually. If they are undamaged, then disbanding/withdrawing them is the same as rebasing them, in fact even worse since there's a delay from the parent unit getting back up to full strength since you can only replenish 12 aircraft at a time every 6-7 days, and the pilots will have to be in transit for any length of time to rejoin the unit. Essentially they've been taken out of the fight for a varying amount of time. It makes more sense to simply fly them to another base. I understand you want to destoy them, but if he's using rail to move damaged aircraft to a port and then using transport ships to withdraw them I think that's a viable and ungamey tactic. If he's disbanding the damaged aircraft at a non-rail hex then they are still being destroyed.

NOTE:

I may have misunderstood the problem. Is it the fact these airfields are 100% damaged that is the issue? That Erik is disbanding units on airfields that are supposed to be no longer functional due to bombing? If so, I don't have an answer.

[Crackaces]

. If they are undamaged, then disbanding/withdrawing them is the same as rebasing them, in fact even worse since there's a delay from the parent unit getting back up to full strength since you can only replenish 12 aircraft at a time every 6-7 days, and the pilots will have to be in transit for any length of time to rejoin the unit.

No delay and no pilots in transit .. if the "parent unit" has extra pilots already .. plus no opportunity for ops losses .from the transfer .

I am glad that damaged aircraft are destroyed when withdrawn ... Do they show up as ops losses?

[witpqs]

I don't know what's happening and due to shortage of time I haven't every word of the recent posts. Having said that here is one possibility to add. Michael has closed some holes in the FOW regarding base mouse-overs. When the Allied player does a mouse-over he sees info based on before the Japanese player's order phase. So, sometimes the planes could be already gone (ordered out that day), but your mouse-over shows them.

The basic FOW is stronger too, I think. Not terribly long ago I had a case where it looked like a naval bombardment found a boatload of IJ planes on an island, next day there were almost none, and then yet the next day when the base was seized there was a boatload there to be destroyed. The FOW was awesome!

What is actually happening in your game? I have no idea, just more food for thought. [8D]

[JocMeister]

Just a minute to spare. I had a talk with Erik about the situation. No foul play. He simply fly them away from a 100% damaged AF. Has that always been possible! [&:] Only damaged AC are left behind and in this case there were only a few (2-3).

I find it very strange that you are allowed to fly out AC from a totally wrecked AF. I took for granted that once a AF reached a certain level of damage you could no longer fly them out. [&:]

[JocMeister]

24th-26th January -44

New Guinea

Buna finally falls to the allied onslaught!

Ground combat at Buna (99,129)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 15981 troops, 236 guns, 403 vehicles, Assault Value = 664

Defending force 12722 troops, 203 guns, 48 vehicles, Assault Value = 180

Allied engineers reduce fortifications to 2

Allied adjusted assault: 251

Japanese adjusted defense: 35

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Buna !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
5200 casualties reported
Squads: 195 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 277 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 28 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 74 (71 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 37 (37 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 10
Units destroyed 2


Allied ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
102nd Combat Engineer Regiment
1st Marine Division
3rd USMC Tank Battalion
1st USMC Corps Tank Battalion
II Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
I US Amphib Corps
2nd USMC Tank Bn /11

Defending units:
14th Garrison Unit
22nd Division
91st Infantry Regiment
3rd Garrison Unit
39th Road Const Co
Kure 7th SNLF
57th Field AA Battalion
22nd JNAF AF Unit
16th AA Regiment
47th Engineer Regiment
55th Field AA Battalion
86th JAAF AF Coy

Troops will now rest up before moving to the next objectives. Troops are being shuttled all over the place. Eriks barges seems immune to anything but sub deck guns. PT boats doesn´t engage. I also did some good bombing runs on his troops fleeing Buna racking up some 1000 kills. Target is now briefly changed for Umboi Island. Erik has some troops there but far from enough to stop me. I will close the AF next turn and then proceed to bomb the troops.

Next move will probably be in 2-3 weeks depending on how fast the 1st Marines rest up. After that I have a whole chain of targets to attend to.

OZ

No more attacks on my armor after Darwin was closed. Waiting for engineers to arrive with the rest of the army before proceeding.

Burma

Erik bombard with his superstack doing not much. I then bombard in turn doing the same thing. Stalemate continues. I did do a deliberate attack with my east flanking force. Did so-so. Looks worse then it is since 95% of the losses are from the same Brigade that is completely wrecked.

Ground combat at 57,49 (near Toungoo)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 51414 troops, 766 guns, 1660 vehicles, Assault Value = 2412

Defending force 29381 troops, 464 guns, 803 vehicles, Assault Value = 1060

Allied adjusted assault: 1241

Japanese adjusted defense: 1537

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1943 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 118 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 37 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 27 disabled
Vehicles lost 189 (42 destroyed, 147 disabled) <-- Tihii


Allied ground losses:
2611 casualties reported
Squads: 135 destroyed, 180 disabled <-- 72nd Brigade being totally wrecked
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 44 disabled
Engineers: 23 destroyed, 24 disabled
Guns lost 82 (12 destroyed, 70 disabled)
Vehicles lost 56 (7 destroyed, 49 disabled)


Assaulting units:
72nd British Brigade
Provisionl Tank Brigade
29th British Brigade
26th Indian Brigade
268th Motorised Brigade
150th RAC Regiment
16th Chindit Brigade
50th Tank Brigade
14th Chindit Brigade
22nd (East African) Brigade
255th Armoured Brigade
11th (East African) Division
254th Armoured Brigade
23rd Chindit Brigade
III Indian Corps

Defending units:
1st Tank Division
9th Division
31st Ind.Mixed Brigade
69th Field AA Battalion
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
14th Mortar Battalion
40th Field AA Battalion
2nd RF Gun Battalion
20th AA Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Medium Mortar Battalion
9th RF Gun Battalion

My armor are mostly unaffected. Just need to rest for a bit before going again. Another division is on its way. Will bomb away until it arrives and try again. Hopefully with better result. I´m thinking this will be a stalemate until the 2 massive Chinese Corps arrive with another bought out Indian division. That will be almost 4000 AV in Eriks rear area. He will have to respond to that.

If anyone has any ideas. Let me hear them! [:)]

Some 100 2Es and 4Es just arrived and will add to the carnage. I now have about 400 bombers active. 250 of them 4Es.

CENTPAC

Valhalla has 2 more hexes to go...I won´t belive it until I see it... No increase in flood or SYS.

[ny59giants]

Your infantry Brigades will take it hard on any result that is less than 1:1. Get ready for it. Take out any unit that has close to or over 50% disablement of their major devices/squads. They will take on extra casualties in destroyed squads with unfavorable results.

Can you combine the Chindits into a division??

Where is your artillery?? Some AA would help fend off any bombing attacks.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Your infantry Brigades will take it hard on any result that is less than 1:1. Get ready for it. Take out any unit that has close to or over 50% disablement of their major devices/squads. They will take on extra casualties in destroyed squads with unfavorable results.

Can you combine the Chindits into a division??

Where is your artillery?? Some AA would help fend off any bombing attacks.

Good to know. I sent the 72nd back towards Magwe.

Chindits can´t be combined. Two of the other Chindits brigades can combine to a parachute division in about a year.

The artillery is with the stack one hex to the west. I left the AA guns at Magwe. Don´t want them to waste supply. I have complete control of the air. Since Erik lost some 100-150 bombers he has remained under a 600 CAP umbrella at Rangoon.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Just a minute to spare. I had a talk with Erik about the situation. No foul play. He simply fly them away from a 100% damaged AF. Has that always been possible! [&:] Only damaged AC are left behind and in this case there were only a few (2-3).

I find it very strange that you are allowed to fly out AC from a totally wrecked AF. I took for granted that once a AF reached a certain level of damage you could no longer fly them out. [&:]

That [no takeoffs] was my understanding as well. Good to find out what actually happens!

[JocMeister]

28-29th January -44

Not much happening.

New Guinea

Moving everything forward to Milne Bay. This will be the distribution center for now. Some 300 xAKs are doing the heavy lifting. A 300.000 ton fuel convoy will arrive in the area shortly. It will top of Milne and then move back to OZ. Logistics, logistics.

Burma

I´m committing the central reserves. I will do a final try at the hex eastern hex. Otherwise I will have to wait for the western force to cross over around Bessain. It will be very close to 4000 AV once all troops arrive. That will certainly get Erik moving. I´ve also started preparing yet another Indian division for deployment. Need more PPs though.

I will never ever again play without stacking limits. Its such a huge bore. Just pile as much as you can in a hex and your done! [>:]

Erik swept Ramree with some 300 (roughly) Franks downing a whooping 8 P40s for 2 Franks. Hehe! [:D] I have a unlimited supply of P40 variant and are still using the K model with some 180 left in the pool. Green pilots are unlimited too. I wonder if the Frank is a disappointment to Erik. It has not done well so far. He also bombed my southern forces knocking actually causing some disruption (6,6,8), If he keeps this up I will have to do something about it.

Some 80 more bombers arrive. In the next month some massive reinforcements are coming from the States. I sent 8 corsair squadrons that had been acting as training squads in the states to Aden. I have some 800 Fighter pilots in the pool and I loose about 10 per month since Erik avoids combat. Some more bomber squads are arriving too including 2 4E groups. I decided not to send any more Army fighter squadrons to India. I have more then enough. I send two squadrons to SOPAC to convert to P38s once the arrive. Right now I have more squadrons then I can use. That will probably change the more bases I acquire though.

I managed to upgrade 3 more P40 squadrons this turn. 2 to P47 and 1 to P38. I will probably change the two P47 squadrons in SOPAC to something else. The Corsairs together with the P38s can handle anything in SOPAC. That would boost my P47 strength in India to a whooping 350 with about 100 in pool. Most of the RAF and RAAF is now flying the Spit VII. Happy days! [:D]

CENTPAC
Valhalla made it to Pearl! [X(] Not that is matters much though... she will be gone for 15 months so when the time she gets back she will probably not make much of a difference. Her air wings will be left at PH acting as trainers.

[ny59giants]

Your game will probably get to early 45, so you will need that CV again. [:D]

[JocMeister]

Advice on air war needed!

As I have mentioned many times before I have been waiting for Erik to make a move in Burma that will give me an opening on closing the AF at Rangoon and start hitting his supply. That opportunity may have presented itself this turn. The question is: Should I act?

I have the following ready to sweep tomorrow if I decide to.

75 P47s
80 Corsairs
50 P38s
100 Spit VII...
...and a gazillion P40s of different variants.

His CAP should be "light" since he should have many squadrons resting after the recent combat where he took heavy looses and lots of planes repairing and high fatigue.

Is it worth the risk? 4Es will have to fly from a different AF from the sweeps as Ramree can´t house more then 17 squadrons. I can attach about 100 P40s as escort from the same AF. But they will fly at absolute max range (8). Will closing the Rangoon AF actually be that big of a deal? I´m thinking most of his supply in Burma should be there and if I can start taking that away he may find himself in big trouble? Its also the only level 9 AF he has in the area.

What do you guys think? Is the risk worth the reward? The question here is really: How important would closing Rangoon AF really be. Is it possible to cause a supply problem for him by doing AF bombings at Rangoon?

Here is the losses from today's battle. 25 Pilots lost...crap. Only good news is that many seems to be from the weakest P47 squadron.

[witpqs]

How fast is the Spit VII? Sweepers need a speed advantage.

I would sweep plus bomb with 4EB, but do not escort the 4EB. The escort fighters will just be there to get chewed up. The sweepers and 4EB will work in concert. Both will hit the CAP in the air, and the 4EB might cause ops losses via runway damage. Maybe even hit some planes that are on the ground.