Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JocMeister]

Well, I´ve certainly learned my lessons on thinking I know best! I´ll do as you both suggests! [:)]

HS, that means I still strongly outnumber me. Good info. I will keep the CVEs in the same hex as the CVs to make sure I get the added CAP. Without the CAP from the CVEs I´m really thin. Hellcats and Corsairs can´t make up the whole numerical difference!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


I will mention that in my experience, range 0 is not the best for CAP interceptions. Look at it this way - if your TF is in the middle of the 40 nm hex, and his strike aircraft are approaching at 240 nm/hr, you have 1/12 of an hour or 5 minutes to intercept and engage before he is over your TF dropping bombs and torpedos. This is not enough time to push through the escorts and take down the bombers. At range 1, your CAP gets 10 additional minutes to engage before the enemy arrives.

The trade-off is more pilot fatigue.

[JocMeister]

Burma failure

I have been spending some time looking at the Burma situation. The more I look at it the more this looks to be turning into a failure. Going over the numbers I have some 13K AV against Eriks 10,5K AV (that I know of, probably more). Given the defensive terrain and forts I don´t think I have enough here to dislodge him. Not even close.

The bomber command has certainly been a disappointment. I´m causing some 100 losses each turn on a stack of 90.000 troops. After almost a month of bombing I didn´t even achieve a modifier for low moral or disruption. Thats 400 bombers going at it almost each day.

I´m all out of ideas right now. I put almost all my eggs in this Burma basket. But with the added troops from he has from China I don´t think I can do much more here. He is certainly very weak everywhere else as indicated by the SOPAC campaign. I have roughly 14 divisions to "spare" but lack the means to put them somewhere important (DEI).

I also got some interesting numbers from Erik himself. He is not producing 500 Fighters per month. He is producing a staggering 1050 Fighters per month! [X(] How the heck am I supposed to deal with that? If he ever decides to put up a fight in the air he will drain my pools completely dry in a month.

Anyone have any ideas? I can´t land in the DEI as KB guards is. As my CV strength is right now I wouldn´t want to take it on. Even less so with LBA thrown in.

Do I except the stalemate in Burma and keep going in SOPAC? Do I abandon Burma and go somewhere else? Do I abandon SOPAC and send everything to Burma? Do I sneak some IDs out of Burma and send to CENT/SOPAC? [&:]

What to do? I put myself in this mess by playing extremely poorly and passive in 43. Now I have to try and sort this out. Just don´t know how!

[poodlebrain]

Remember why Japan is fighting this war. Her economy needed oil. You can cut off the oil at Magwe with LBA making Burma a sideshow. That leaves three other sources of oil for the Japanese, Sumatra, Java and Borneo, that you should be able to take by frontal assault once your carrier fleet has expanded. An alternative to the frontal assault is to get into position to interdict the transport of the oil to Japan. You have the resources to threaten the Japanese from all directions, and you still have margin for error. The Japanese lack the resources to defend from more than one direction, and they have zero margin for error. My advice is the same as I got from a SFC when I was a 2LT disappointed with my platoon's performance during an exercise, "Soldier on."

[Saros]

Can you post a strategic map shot so we can see where you might be able to make a move?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

Remember why Japan is fighting this war. Her economy needed oil. You can cut off the oil at Magwe with LBA making Burma a sideshow. That leaves three other sources of oil for the Japanese, Sumatra, Java and Borneo, that you should be able to take by frontal assault once your carrier fleet has expanded. An alternative to the frontal assault is to get into position to interdict the transport of the oil to Japan. You have the resources to threaten the Japanese from all directions, and you still have margin for error. The Japanese lack the resources to defend from more than one direction, and they have zero margin for error. My advice is the same as I got from a SFC when I was a 2LT disappointed with my platoon's performance during an exercise, "Soldier on."

Magwe havn´t produced any oil since mid 42!

I would love to do a frontal assault but he will have carrier supremacy for another year at least. I can´t take on the KB + LBA and land in the DEI. So I guess I´ll continue to try for the Philippines.

Here is a strategic map of the situation. I just got SigInt on 2 more IDs moving by sea to Burma...

[1275psi]

As a Jap player, I look and see only one path for you

marcus, iwo Jima, okiwana............cut him off!

[JocMeister]

HRs and other stuff

Not many turns has been done the last 2 days. We have had a discussion going on weather or not to continue the game. Or rather I have asked if we should drop it as none of us seems to enjoy the game very much. But Erik still wants to continue though and I have promised to see this through as long as he wants to play on.

This in turn sparked a discussion on some of our HRs. Erik wants to remove the one limiting planes to the 2nd best MVR band. I don´t want to as I have been on the receiving end of that HR for 2 years when his Tojos would swoop down on my Warhawks and Cobras stuck by the HR 10.000 feet lower. The air model being what it is often resulted in 50:1 KDR for him. Now when I´m finally being able to use that HR to my advantage I won´t give it up. Period.

Erik also wanted to limit the stacking on the airfields putting a 500 plane CAP on level 9 AF. This I feel I can never agree to. If so there has to be an exception for the 4Es. And to be fair I have only been "overstacking" at Portland Roads earlier and then Port Moresby due to not having anywhere else to place them! It is actually Erik that has bunched his fighters up (500-600+) as Rabaul and Rangoon. So I don´t really know where this is coming from. But I will think it through before getting him a definitive answer.

There are also some things that are not sitting well with me lately and last turn we had another of those moments.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Howland Island at 148,125

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes


Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 59
SBD-5 Dauntless x 34


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AMc Shonan Maru #7, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

We have explicitly stated in our HR that pickets CAN be used if used within reason Posting a coastal minesweeper in the middle of the ocean doesn´t qualify in my book. [8|] So now he has busted the Gilberts operation. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth and drops my motivation even further. I spent almost 3 hours getting everything in order and loaded up. That is now time spent in vain. Everyone with a baby and a job knows how precious 3 hours are. I.am.not.happy! [:@]

[JocMeister]

I received a response for Erik. We decided not to implement any change to the HRs right now. Once Erik gets fighters that have access to the highest MVR band we will discuss this again. I would take this opportunity to tell anyone reading this that is thinking about staring a PBEM or is still early in the game:

Use stacking limits in your game. It goes a long way to sorting out many of the problems with the land war.
Don´t use the "2nd best MVR altitude band" HR. It will ruin the air war. A better HR would be to limit max altitude per year instead. Or just keep everything below 20k.

On the picket ship I got a very discerning answer.

All of the small PB classes of ship can be converted into many types with virtually the same armament and capabilities. This ship is being used because it's a combat ship, not a merchant, and because it has a long enough range to be able to stay out there for a while. This is the type of ship the US found off of Japan during the Doolittle attack. Several were sunk by surface vessels. So what I'm doing here has an exact historical relevance, even down to ship type.

Calling a AMc for "combat ship" is stretching reality I think. This picket ship has really gotten me upset. [:@] But perhaps I shouldn´t be?

On the plus side if Erik finds this acceptable I don´t think he can really complain if I send out AMc later in the game for "pilot rescue" and stuff triggering massive naval strikes and kami attacks... [8|]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

As a Jap player, I look and see only one path for you

marcus, iwo Jima, okiwana............cut him off!

Thats actually not a bad idea! [X(]

[DOCUP]

Joc:
 
First question.  Why is it not fun for either of you?  You don't have to answer here.  Just ask yourself and your opponent.  Find the answer to that then fix it.  
 
Don't take this the wrong way, but you have tunnel vision.  Your focusing on Burma and DEI.  You have other options.  1275psi just gave you one.
 
Burma:
I don't think you have screwd up here.  Also I don't think its a secondary theather.   Look how much of the Jap military you have tied down here.  Thats a victory.  He can't up and move all these troops in an instant.   You have done good job in Burma.  Keep working on it you will wear him down just give it some more time.  Remember he dosen't have the endless resources that you do.  For ever man, tank, plane you destroy in Burma.  He has to pay for in HI, LI, fuel and what not.  This attrition will work for you not him. Once his troops are locked into Burma Look across the map.  You said yourself he is weak in other spots of the map.  Where are they?   What can you do to capitalize on these weak points? 
 
Example:
Just what 1275psi said.  Also, what does he have in the Aluetians?  Pull a CR or Greyjoy attack use the northern route.  Or use it as a feint.  Make him pull troops up their to defend from your attacks.
 
Gilberts and Marshalls are also an idea.
 
Ok lets say you want to take Burma.  Feint in the Aluetians pull the IJN out of the area of DEI and Burma and attack the Andaman Islands.  Cut off Rangoon, he won't be able to ship in supplies, and we know what will happen to his troops then.  This will also give you a starting point in the DEI.
 
DEI:
I would love to hit that area, but every Jap player will defend it.  Just keep throwing a bag of burning dog poop on his doorstep, so he has to come out and put out the fire. lol   Ok translation, do raids so he has to keep forces here and not where they are needed the most. 
 
I might be wrong with my advise, but I'm sure someone will correct me.  I think you have done a good job in Burma.  Ok back to bed.

[Cpt Sherwood]

If you are not having fun now, have you considered asking for a replacement player?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

HRs and other stuff

Not many turns has been done the last 2 days. We have had a discussion going on weather or not to continue the game. Or rather I have asked if we should drop it as none of us seems to enjoy the game very much. But Erik still wants to continue though and I have promised to see this through as long as he wants to play on.

This in turn sparked a discussion on some of our HRs. Erik wants to remove the one limiting planes to the 2nd best MVR band. I don´t want to as I have been on the receiving end of that HR for 2 years when his Tojos would swoop down on my Warhawks and Cobras stuck by the HR 10.000 feet lower. The air model being what it is often resulted in 50:1 KDR for him. Now when I´m finally being able to use that HR to my advantage I won´t give it up. Period.

Erik also wanted to limit the stacking on the airfields putting a 500 plane CAP on level 9 AF. This I feel I can never agree to. If so there has to be an exception for the 4Es. And to be fair I have only been "overstacking" at Portland Roads earlier and then Port Moresby due to not having anywhere else to place them! It is actually Erik that has bunched his fighters up (500-600+) as Rabaul and Rangoon. So I don´t really know where this is coming from. But I will think it through before getting him a definitive answer.

There are also some things that are not sitting well with me lately and last turn we had another of those moments.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Howland Island at 148,125

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes


Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 59
SBD-5 Dauntless x 34


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AMc Shonan Maru #7, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk

We have explicitly stated in our HR that pickets CAN be used if used within reason Posting a coastal minesweeper in the middle of the ocean doesn´t qualify in my book. [8|] So now he has busted the Gilberts operation. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth and drops my motivation even further. I spent almost 3 hours getting everything in order and loaded up. That is now time spent in vain. Everyone with a baby and a job knows how precious 3 hours are. I.am.not.happy! [:@]

This post encapsulates several reasons I HATE HRs.

You're playing the Allies, man! You've passed the hard times. Go pound him! [:)]

There has to be some area of your effort you could give more attention to. Forget Burma for a few days; it won't kill you. When is the last time you re-deployed your subs to kill some tankers? Is there an island in the Aleutians calling your name? Don't get so hamstrung by carriers you forget the rest of the Allied hammer.

What's up in the Solomons?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

On the picket ship I got a very discerning answer.

All of the small PB classes of ship can be converted into many types with virtually the same armament and capabilities. This ship is being used because it's a combat ship, not a merchant, and because it has a long enough range to be able to stay out there for a while. This is the type of ship the US found off of Japan during the Doolittle attack. Several were sunk by surface vessels. So what I'm doing here has an exact historical relevance, even down to ship type.

Calling a AMc for "combat ship" is stretching reality I think. This picket ship has really gotten me upset. [:@] But perhaps I shouldn´t be?

Well, it is a combat ship in that it isn't a merchant ship. My response to this HR is always: 1) I'll do the same as I see fit, and 2) You're going to lose this ship. Hope you have more. Thanks for the training opportunity.

On the plus side if Erik finds this acceptable I don´t think he can really complain if I send out AMc later in the game for "pilot rescue" and stuff triggering massive naval strikes and kami attacks... [8|]

Exactly. That's the spirit!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Joc:

First question.  Why is it not fun for either of you?  You don't have to answer here.  Just ask yourself and your opponent.  Find the answer to that then fix it.  

Don't take this the wrong way, but you have tunnel vision.  Your focusing on Burma and DEI.  You have other options.  1275psi just gave you one.

Burma:
I don't think you have screwd up here.  Also I don't think its a secondary theather.   Look how much of the Jap military you have tied down here.  Thats a victory.  He can't up and move all these troops in an instant.   You have done good job in Burma.  Keep working on it you will wear him down just give it some more time.  Remember he dosen't have the endless resources that you do.  For ever man, tank, plane you destroy in Burma.  He has to pay for in HI, LI, fuel and what not.  This attrition will work for you not him. Once his troops are locked into Burma Look across the map.  You said yourself he is weak in other spots of the map.  Where are they?   What can you do to capitalize on these weak points? 

Example:
Just what 1275psi said.  Also, what does he have in the Aluetians?  Pull a CR or Greyjoy attack use the northern route.  Or use it as a feint.  Make him pull troops up their to defend from your attacks.

Gilberts and Marshalls are also an idea.

Ok lets say you want to take Burma.  Feint in the Aluetians pull the IJN out of the area of DEI and Burma and attack the Andaman Islands.  Cut off Rangoon, he won't be able to ship in supplies, and we know what will happen to his troops then.  This will also give you a starting point in the DEI.

DEI:
I would love to hit that area, but every Jap player will defend it.  Just keep throwing a bag of burning dog poop on his doorstep, so he has to come out and put out the fire. lol   Ok translation, do raids so he has to keep forces here and not where they are needed the most. 

I might be wrong with my advise, but I'm sure someone will correct me.  I think you have done a good job in Burma.  Ok back to bed.

Largely agree with all this.

Burma: too many Allied players think they have to crush, kill, destroy here. In RL it was still being fought over in May 1945 I think. It bled the Empire right to the end. Do that and it's served its purpose. If you can do more and get down into Malaysia or Indo-China, great. But you don't have to.

The USN is in the process of building the greatest fleet seen in world history. So you're short of CV s now. Deal. You have some CVEs. Look at the edges if you can't go long. The Aleutians are a good idea if you can work the winter rules. Marcus is deep, might be too deep for now, but put it on a to-do list. Eniwetok in this era is not a bad look-see. It is a GREAT supply dump/stage for the Marianas in mid-1944 on historical time tracks. Can you achieve a foothold on the western Sumatra islands? Those build to very nice air bases, and you can bomb Oil from them. Etc. You have options.

Above all, bleed him, bleed him, bleed him. Not just aircraft. Ships. Fuel. Armament points. Every week look at airgroups which aren't bombing something and ask "why not?"

[JocMeister]

Hey guys. Thank you for the encouragement! [:)]

Well, I certainly misinterpreted Eriks will to continue. He is still really enjoying the game and want to continue playing. I´m not sure why I´m not having much fun anymore. But I think it just that I don´t enjoy this period in the game very much. I miss the tension of 42 and 43. I was nervous before opening every turn, watched every battle and felt attached to the units involved. Now I have so much stuff it really doesn´t matter. I just don´t care as much!?

Its just the grind of it. No finesse or anything. Just load up troops. Put up LRCAP, land, bomb, capture base. Move in BFs. Rinse and repeat for 2 years. I feel more like an overseer in a factory then a armchair general! But perhaps that is just the essence of being the allied player. [:)]

After several emails back and forth yesterday we decided not to change any HRs. Good or bad we started out with them so we will finish with them. I was very clear with Erik that I won´t drop the game as long as he wants to continue. So continue we will. [:)]

I really don´t like his use of the picket ships. Historical or not (and I do feel he is really stretching it here) it just messes with the engine. But as the USN used them in large numbers outside the HI it opens up some great opportunities for me later on. I´ll just keep a copy of Eriks reply and send it to him when he gets upset that 500 kamis go after a PF somewhere!

Burma

Thank you all for the advice and encouragement here too. Perhaps its not as bad as I think it is. As Docoup says I have tied down some massive Japanese forces here. He has another 2 divisions on its way. That means he probably has some 12k-14k AV here. I know he is really weak in SOPAC as the last month have shown. If he doesn´t do anything soon I will land on Mindanao before 44 is up.

I´m really intrigued by 1275psis idea by bypassing the Marshalls and going straight for Markus. But as Bullwinkle says. This might be too deep. I need a good staging point somewhere. Marshalls is the logical target. I´m too short on troops to take it all (1 ID 2 USMC). But I don´t really need that do I? 2-3 Bases in the Marshalls is enough to suppress him there. Add Wake to that (have a Ind RGT and a tank BTL prepped). I could then take Markus, bypass the Marianas and go straight for Bonin? That would buy me 3-6 months?

That could also be...fun? [:)] Would give me something else to focus on besides the grinding in Burma and NG. Time to look at the map!

[Encircled]

Go get em, Joc!

[PaxMondo]

Very happy to hear that you guys will continue.
 
<fades out>

[ny59giants]

I'm in early '44 for the first time ever. At times, it is not fun being Japan. I've just experienced my first taste of a 300 plus CAP over the Allied CVs. Ouch!! I will be learning how to cope with being on the receiving end of overwhelming force at certain places on the map. Some things as a player cannot be learned except by playing. Look at your game as learning how to use certain assets more effectively. You will soon get both the second gen P-47s and then the mighty B-29s. From previous posting, you don't seem to enjoy doing all the logistics that is required as the Allies at this stage. Lots of planning and moving TFs around to keep up with that is often boring. I see myself saying I need to do 'x' but tell myself that I'll do it in a few days. I then find myself with the third incident of not having 2x supply at my P-38s base and don't have drop tanks available.

I look at Burma as more a World War I battle. Just shear numbers when you play without stacking limits. It is worse for you here and everywhere as you lost the battle of China. This allowed Erik to free up lots of extra troops.

While others have advised a bold move in the North Pacific or through the Marshalls, I would be focusing on moving up both sides of New Guinea with the thought of getting to the Philippines. Another thought occurred while typing and that would be a huge encirclement that included the Marshalls and the NG/Solomons.

Overall, I would take some more time to do a turn and get better organized. You may not get to Japan by '46, but the trip there should be a fun one.

[poodlebrain]

Looking at the strategic map I ask myself where can the Allies advance to within one year? Of those locations which would I prefer? And I find myself in agreement with you regarding the Philippines. The Japanese cannot survive the Allies possessing the Philippines in strength. I have some slightly different ideas about how to get there.

My first priority would be securing the Bismark Archipelago and Admiralty Islands. This would isolate New Britain and the Solomons. It would give the Allies the option of attacking north toward the Marianas or west toward the Philippines. I'd look for a long flanking attack on the north coast of New Guinea with the objective of getting a fighter base as far forward as possible. The bypassed bases could then be taken in smash and grab operations. Killing the Japanese defenders isn't necessary. Retreating them into the jungle is just as effective. All of the isolated Japanese defenders would be ideal targets for training missions for newly arriving air units and ships as a bonus from this approach.

It's also critical for the Allies to keep applying pressure all along the Japanes defensive perimeter. The KB cannot be everywhere, and it is the only means the Japanese have of stopping, or even slowing, a determined Allied attack at this point. Force the Japanese to keep the IJN, and particularly the KB, at sea. The Japanese cannot match the Allies operational tempo, and eventually the effects of fatigue and morale will catch up with the Japanese. The Allies only have to catch them once in disarray. So try and increase the chances of it occurring by attacking just at the edge of KB response range. It's risky, but what is the fun of life without risk?

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I'm in early '44 for the first time ever. At times, it is not fun being Japan. I've just experienced my first taste of a 300 plus CAP over the Allied CVs. Ouch!! I will be learning how to cope with being on the receiving end of overwhelming force at certain places on the map. Some things as a player cannot be learned except by playing. Look at your game as learning how to use certain assets more effectively. You will soon get both the second gen P-47s and then the mighty B-29s. From previous posting, you don't seem to enjoy doing all the logistics that is required as the Allies at this stage. Lots of planning and moving TFs around to keep up with that is often boring. I see myself saying I need to do 'x' but tell myself that I'll do it in a few days. I then find myself with the third incident of not having 2x supply at my P-38s base and don't have drop tanks available.

I look at Burma as more a World War I battle. Just shear numbers when you play without stacking limits. It is worse for you here and everywhere as you lost the battle of China. This allowed Erik to free up lots of extra troops.

While others have advised a bold move in the North Pacific or through the Marshalls, I would be focusing on moving up both sides of New Guinea with the thought of getting to the Philippines. Another thought occurred while typing and that would be a huge encirclement that included the Marshalls and the NG/Solomons.

Overall, I would take some more time to do a turn and get better organized. You may not get to Japan by '46, but the trip there should be a fun one.