Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I see myself saying I need to do 'x' but tell myself that I'll do it in a few days. I then find myself with the third incident of not having 2x supply at my P-38s base and don't have drop tanks available.

Overall, I would take some more time to do a turn and get better organized. You may not get to Japan by '46, but the trip there should be a fun one.

That is EXACTLY what I have been doing. That "I´ll do it next turn" thing. Its a bad habit and the only remedy is as you point out to spend more time with the turns. I have already told Erik I will have to drop the turn rate on weekdays a few weeks ago. Hopefully this will help clear the backlog.

[JocMeister]

Ouff, Had some friends over last night in the new house. Well, Ida was sleeping and I kind of forgot she doesn´t really care if daddy wants to sleep all day and feel like crap. I got to bed at 1 o´clock or something after drinking way more beer then I should have. I´m paying the price today. Or rather I started paying it at 5:30 this morning when a certain someone woke up... [>:]


Strategic thinking

I LOVE the discussion guys! [:)]

Aleutians

I feel this is beyond the scope for me right now. I have only 4 RGTs up there prepped for Cold Bay and Dutch. Doing anything else here would require me to shift forces from somewhere else. Erik has abandoned the area and probably bottled up around Adak. I don´t think shifting forces right now would be in my interest? Besides taking 2 months to shift the troops I would also have to send combat ships and air groups here.

CENTPAC

Gilberts operation is already in full swing. I will land on Kuria (a small dot island S of Abemama) to set up a Cat base. I need to make sure Erik won´t jump me with the KB. While this is happening I will work over Tarawa and Abemama. Once they have fallen I can start repreping forces. Question is for what?

I have 1 ID and 2 USMC to do something with after that. I see two options. Either prep for something in the Marshalls or move them to SOPAC and let CENTPAC be. I am toying with the idea of going directly for the Bonins or Wake/Marcus and then Bonins in late 44 completely bypassing the Marianas as 1275psi suggested.

If I do something in CENTPAC there are some reinforcements that could be diverted here. I have 3 US IDs and 1 USMC Division arriving in the coming three months.

SOPAC/NG/OZ

Here is the only place on the map where things are at least moving forward. Its also where I have diverted most of the forces lately. I´m almost as strong here as in Burma with 2 USMC Divisons, 3 OZ divisions and 12 US Divisions. Opposing this is only about 100.000 Japanese troops of smaller sizes. Only one ID identified (22nd) and its wrecked after PM.

After PM fell Erik is relying on smaller sized forces of Brigades and Garrison forces that so far hasn´t been able to halt me for more then 2-3 turns. I really feel this is where I can make strides. Erik is airlifting units out from Rabaul placing them in my path. Often not more then 10.000 troops at any base. I really feel this is the area to push hard. Once I get past his first new defensive line he won´t have much in the way of troops left. Manus will be key to this area. I have 3 divisions prepping for this. With Manus in Allied hand Rabaul will be irrelevant.

So really I guess it comes down to what I should do after Gilberts? Do I send the 4 divisions coming online together with the forces already in CENTPAC to NG bolstering the forces there to almost 20 divisions? My gut tells me doing something in CENTPAC will be more..fun! So I probably should to that. Question is what? Marshalls? Wake/Markus and then Bonins? Marianas? (Is that even doable with only 7 divisions?)

I´m just learning how to do amphibious operations and still havn´t done any major ones. So I don´t know what is possible to do and not? Gilberts will be my first divisional sized atoll landing. So any imput or ideas from you guys are highly valued! [:)]

[BBfanboy]

I think the first thing is to ask yourself where you want to be at the end of the year, and gear your ops to make that happen.

The Wake-Marcus operation is good in that he must commit naval and long range air forces to oppose it. The down side is that every time you want to resupply or reinforce those islands you must bring lots of naval support and at least CVE air cover. You must also search nearly 360º because you are so deep in "Indian Country". I would not do this operation unless I was sure I had naval and air dominance for the next six months.

You should have enough sealift to advance in the Aleutians a little, just to let him know you can strike there. Take back some empty bases [but not during winter months]. You do not have to garrison every island you take back. If you can work your way out to Attu and isolate Adak, so much the better. You want him to worry about troops cut off and send ships into your LBA cover.

If you are making progress in NG and surrounding area, continue! Anywhere that there are lots of places for him to defend splits his forces into smaller packets that you can overrun or bypass. Interlocking LBA cover is your friend. Babeldaob should be on your target list to threaten the Philippines.
You might be able to pull some surprises in southern NG by taking back Merauke and some of the other few bases there to open the Eastern DEI to threat. There is an area he can't defend [too many islands] and can't ignore either.

Amphib landings - lots of advice on this in the War Room forum. Use more xAPs than you need to ensure they can unload all the troops in one turn. Load some xAKs with supply only and embed them in the Amphib TF. Embed some minesweepers [DMS, AM] and BBs/CAs in the TF. If you have enough, use other BBs/CAs/CLs to bombard before the landing to disrupt the enemy. Have minesweepers precede the bombardment TF. Have some independent ASW TFs moving ahead of the invasion TF. Use CVEs to put up fighters for CAP and bombers for ASW and search.

A note about "load cost" which you may already know: it seems to be based on weight of the equipment but takes no account of bulk/inability to stack, until the loading takes place. If the unit has tanks or artillery, I multiply the cargo load cost times four. If it has mortars or AA guns or other vehicles, times three. Use higher multiples than this if you want the TF to off-load the equipment faster.

Whatever you choose to do - good luck! [8D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

CENTPAC

Gilberts operation is already in full swing. I will land on Kuria (a small dot island S of Abemama) to set up a Cat base. I need to make sure Erik won´t jump me with the KB. While this is happening I will work over Tarawa and Abemama. Once they have fallen I can start repreping forces. Question is for what?

I have 1 ID and 2 USMC to do something with after that. I see two options. Either prep for something in the Marshalls or move them to SOPAC and let CENTPAC be. I am toying with the idea of going directly for the Bonins or Wake/Marcus and then Bonins in late 44 completely bypassing the Marianas as 1275psi suggested.

If I do something in CENTPAC there are some reinforcements that could be diverted here. I have 3 US IDs and 1 USMC Division arriving in the coming three months.

SOPAC/NG/OZ

Here is the only place on the map where things are at least moving forward. Its also where I have diverted most of the forces lately. I´m almost as strong here as in Burma with 2 USMC Divisons, 3 OZ divisions and 12 US Divisions. Opposing this is only about 100.000 Japanese troops of smaller sizes. Only one ID identified (22nd) and its wrecked after PM.

After PM fell Erik is relying on smaller sized forces of Brigades and Garrison forces that so far hasn´t been able to halt me for more then 2-3 turns. I really feel this is where I can make strides. Erik is airlifting units out from Rabaul placing them in my path. Often not more then 10.000 troops at any base. I really feel this is the area to push hard. Once I get past his first new defensive line he won´t have much in the way of troops left. Manus will be key to this area. I have 3 divisions prepping for this. With Manus in Allied hand Rabaul will be irrelevant.

So really I guess it comes down to what I should do after Gilberts? Do I send the 4 divisions coming online together with the forces already in CENTPAC to NG bolstering the forces there to almost 20 divisions? My gut tells me doing something in CENTPAC will be more..fun! So I probably should to that. Question is what? Marshalls? Wake/Markus and then Bonins? Marianas? (Is that even doable with only 7 divisions?)

I´m just learning how to do amphibious operations and still havn´t done any major ones. So I don´t know what is possible to do and not? Gilberts will be my first divisional sized atoll landing. So any imput or ideas from you guys are highly valued! [:)]

Just some musings. Take them for what they're worth.

Consider the calendar. Everything takes more time than you think it will, prep being what it is. Bypassing bases in 1944 is normal; you don't have to stomp everything. He can't supply the deep eastern bases well if you're using your subs properly. Every decent-sized base should have a little friend in attendance 24/7. Supply xAKs sink just as good as Resource xAKs.

In my AI games I've taken all of the Marshalls and Gilberts a couple of times. The urge to do it is strong since several of the out-islands can have stiff air wings. But beware that several of them--Wotje and Milli (sp?) in particular--have naval fortress-sytle CD emplacements which will mess you up. To me only Kwajalein and MAYBE Roi Namur are worth the losses. Once you have them you have a forward sub base and you have an AF big enough to take down the other islands' air fields and keep them down without tying up your Marines. Take the islands out of supply and forget them. The Marines should be looking west.

If you're pretty far behind the curve in NG by 1944 I tend to look at that area as a "bleed area." Operate there, do what damage you can, but your main thrust with time ticking needs to be getting to strategic range of the HI and ending this thing. There are excellent historical reasons the US went for the Marianas. Consult the map. That's a man's operation and if you do it successfully you have mastered all the amphibious challenge the game can present. It's a beast of an operation. When I've done it in AI games 800-1000 ships is pretty normal. You probably need at least some carriers, and you will take losses. But after the Marianas are secure the handwritiing is on the wall.

In game terms I would not go the historical phasing. I'd take Tinian first and get some LBA in there fast. Then Guam, then Saipan. Saipan also has badass CD. You're going to need the better part of a million supply too. Thus my recco before about taking Eniwetok. Two USMC divisions and an army one should be fine for that. Then rest and prep at E. Build supply dumps there too. You have long-range recon planes which can JUST reach the Marianas from E. (The B-24 recon variant I think; it's been awhile.) This is very useful.

Marcus to me is fine for what it is--a patrol base to get eyes deep into his backfield and vector subs, but it's not a main staging base. The IJN can raid it unless you have assets to spare to babysit, and to me you have better jobs for those ships. The Bonins can be back-breakers if you don't invest enough force. I've finished AI GCs with fighting still going on at Iwo Jima. If he's dug in and garrisoned it's among the hardest targets on the map. And not much of a better air base than Saipan/Tinian for strat bombing.

At this date my prejudice agaisnt dinking around in the DEI is probably apparent. A lot of Allied players do it, but the LBA ratios work against you when he has infinite planes and you don't. Prep periods also make moving through that mass of islands slow. To me the wide-open spaces of the Pacific are what the WWII USN fleet was built for. Fast, logistically-sustainable, excellent air power, the best Marines in the world, dedicated landing ships, super-BBs. Use the Navy for what it's designed for.

As I said, some musings. FWIW.

[JocMeister]

Hey guys!

Sorry for the lack of responses and updates. I have a MAJOR exam coming up on Friday. By chance I found out yesterday I have been lacking about 1/3rd of the study material. I have been studying for the exam for 3 months so its a pretty big one.

So basically my life is on hold now while I try to do about a month worth of study in 3 days while working during the days! [:(]

I´ll get back to you all and do a proper update on Friday!

[Uncivil Engineer]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
So really I guess it comes down to what I should do after Gilberts? Do I send the 4 divisions coming online together with the forces already in CENTPAC to NG bolstering the forces there to almost 20 divisions? My gut tells me doing something in CENTPAC will be more..fun! So I probably should to that. Question is what? Marshalls? Wake/Markus and then Bonins? Marianas? (Is that even doable with only 7 divisions?)

Reinforce success !

Throwing out a bunch of diversions to keep him guessing sounds like a good idea. That's how Japan lost IRL (among other things). A key principle of war is OBJECTIVE; don't have too many. Don't bother with the Aleutians unless he's giving it away; then take whatever is free.

Stick with your New Guinea plan and do a MacArthur all the way to Luzon.

[JocMeister]

Ah, head is swimming right now. Decided to take an hour break and spend some time with the family. Only to discover the family is fast asleep! [X(]

Bullwinkle,

Your musings are certainly welcome! Especially so since you are one of only two people that I know of that has played a game to completion! [:)] I may misinterpret you so please correct me if I´m wrong. But I think you are saying that the Marianas are essential and a much better target then the Bonins. I see your reasoning. Bonins require shock attacks on landings and stacking have stacking limits. Things not so good for the attacker. Capturing the Marianas would threaten the HI and force Erik to divert substantial forces to cover his industry.

What kind of forces would be needed to secure 2 bases in your opinion? 3-4 Divisions per base? Plus 4-6 tank battalions and massive amount of engineers? Looking at what I have and will get autumn 44 looks like a possible target date.

Time to try and get some sleep!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Ah, head is swimming right now. Decided to take an hour break and spend some time with the family. Only to discover the family is fast asleep! [X(]

Bullwinkle,

Your musings are certainly welcome! Especially so since you are one of only two people that I know of that has played a game to completion! [:)] I may misinterpret you so please correct me if I´m wrong. But I think you are saying that the Marianas are essential and a much better target then the Bonins. I see your reasoning. Bonins require shock attacks on landings and stacking have stacking limits. Things not so good for the attacker. Capturing the Marianas would threaten the HI and force Erik to divert substantial forces to cover his industry.

What kind of forces would be needed to secure 2 bases in your opinion? 3-4 Divisions per base? Plus 4-6 tank battalions and massive amount of engineers? Looking at what I have and will get autumn 44 looks like a possible target date.

Time to try and get some sleep!

I finished three. [:)] AI games, but I've palyed with the full range of Allied toys. Took one to April 1946 just to see jets.

I'm saying I don't think you have to dink around with the DEI just because everybody else does. Or the PI, although it has great leverage too, especialy if you want Formosa to bomb from.

I like the Marianas because it's like Goldilocks--not too close, not too far. It has reinforcing air bases. This works for him as you invade--which is why you need some carriers--but it swings your way as you take one, and then two, AFs. Tinian can be taken faster, and has a good AF for Corsairs to take down the others. Bring lots and lots in by Air Transport and pretty quickly the one-replace-per-week rule will erode his air effort. Take Tinian and get some AKEs anchored, bring in the Bombarment groups and start smashing Guam and Saipan. There's a reason Tojo fell after the Marianas did--they were linchpins. And a reason the IJN shot the carrier air wad at the Turkey Shoot. The Marianas are the game.

Never understood why AE players almost never take them. Maybe because the amphib op is Ph.D. level and takes many months to get in train.

The Bonins are less useful to me, but not worthless. The game doesn't model the air crew safe haven reasons for Iwo Jima. Beyond that they're good refueling and rearming sites, and decent bases. But Iwo at Forts 6 with three divisions, whiich is what the AI put there I think, ate up over seven divisions in the landing force and held. I just think there are better places to go with that time and effort.

Doing a two-prong with the PI as history presents isn't terrible. Manila is an amazing late war base for the Allies--locaiton, locaiton, location. A very nice shipyard. And huge air bases at Clark and Aparri, right astride whatever he has left in terms of convoys. You can base fifty subs out of Manila and not break a sweat.

But taking the Marianas announces to Japan that things just changed for him. Kamis move to the forefront. Banking HI is critical. Aircraft production and model ratios matter more. He has to decide if he wants to pull troops home before the sea lanes are forever closed. Indo-China and Burma might become expendable, which makes a romp through to the western China border possible. China then gets in a wave of supply and those huge Chinese corps have ammo for a change.

Anyway, if you're bored with the game the Marianas will require total dedication and concentration for a good part of a game year. You have to have the ships you need in the right places, and you have to have monumental supply and fuel dumps prepped. IMO that campaign, if Japan can still fight back, is the best AE can be.

[BBfanboy]

+1 Bullwinkle!
I played the Marianas scenario twice, and even with the required forces pre-prepped for your targets it is a bear to efficiently lift them in sequence to the landings - the same ships have to be used for several landings so there is no time for dallying.
My preferred sequence was Tinian-Guam-Saipan, because the naval fortress at Saipan requires as much bombing/bombarding as possible before landing. I even took Pagan in one of the games - it was useful for fighter cover and bombing Saipan, but using the ships for that invasion made me miss the game end deadline for taking Saipan. [:@] After battling the mines and fortress guns and getting a huge force on Saipan, the came ended before the Deliberate Attack could be ordered. Talk about combatus interruptus!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

+1 Bullwinkle!
I played the Marianas scenario twice, and even with the required forces pre-prepped for your targets it is a bear to efficiently lift them in sequence to the landings - the same ships have to be used for several landings so there is no time for dallying.
My preferred sequence was Tinian-Guam-Saipan, because the naval fortress at Saipan requires as much bombing/bombarding as possible before landing. I even took Pagan in one of the games - it was useful for fighter cover and bombing Saipan, but using the ships for that invasion made me miss the game end deadline for taking Saipan. [:@] After battling the mines and fortress guns and getting a huge force on Saipan, the came ended before the Deliberate Attack could be ordered. Talk about combatus interruptus!

I played the stand-alone scenario too, and it was fun and a very good primer on the op. But in it everything starts shiny and new. [:)] When I did the Marianas in a GC I didn't have the optimal, historical OOB, some of my ships were limping, etc.

The biggest lesson is, as you say, don't do Saipan first. I did and lost 70 APA/LSD/LST sunk or sinking.

[JocMeister]

This stopped me in my tracks:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Anyway, if you're bored with the game the Marianas will require total dedication and concentration for a good part of a game year. You have to have the ships you need in the right places, and you have to have monumental supply and fuel dumps prepped. IMO that campaign, if Japan can still fight back, is the best AE can be.

You are spot on. This is certainly something I can do that might respark my interest in this campaign. Taking the Marianas is kind of a bear isn´t it? [:)]

Since both of you have done it albeit vs the AI. How much is needed to do it? Before I delve to deep into it I must check the reinforcements and available units I can spare in late 44. Are we talking 10 divisions or 20?

Ah, sorry for being so short while asking very big question. Stupid exam! [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

This stopped me in my tracks:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Anyway, if you're bored with the game the Marianas will require total dedication and concentration for a good part of a game year. You have to have the ships you need in the right places, and you have to have monumental supply and fuel dumps prepped. IMO that campaign, if Japan can still fight back, is the best AE can be.

You are spot on. This is certainly something I can do that might respark my interest in this campaign. Taking the Marianas is kind of a bear isn´t it? [:)]

Since both of you have done it albeit vs the AI. How much is needed to do it? Before I delve to deep into it I must check the reinforcements and available units I can spare in late 44. Are we talking 10 divisions or 20?

Ah, sorry for being so short while asking very big question. Stupid exam! [:)]

Depends on which LCUs, not their number. You probably want 2-3 Marine divisions. At least 3-4 more Army; you can reuse some without much prep once you're past beach shock attacks. You want a lot of arty and engineers. Some tanks for the beach; don't need to go overboard.

Far more important is your ships and bringing enough supply and fuel. You will burn through massive amounts of supply. And if you have to fight off a Japanese response while you're still landing you got some fun.

The real life Saipan invasion had over 800 ships. Let history be your guide. Also, it took a month to secure Saipan. AE players get real used to two-day amphib ops. The Marianas aren't like that. You have to prepare to hang around. Lots of Replenishment groups. It's a slog.

And take Eniwetok first. Trust me, it's a long, long haul forward from Pearl.

[JocMeister]

I passed the exam! [X(] Not only did I pass it I did so with flying colors gettin a 82% score! When I was driving there this morning I was SURE I was going to fail. Very glad I was wrong! [:)] I´m now a certified high voltage distribution technician (Up to 20.000 Volts). Only 4 more exams before I´m qualified to open my own company!

Now I have a 2 hour drive to do and then I´m taking the family out for dinner! After that I have been promised some quality AE time to do the turn for Erik and update the AAR! [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I passed the exam! [X(] Not only did I pass it I did so with flying colors gettin a 82% score! When I was driving there this morning I was SURE I was going to fail. Very glad I was wrong! [:)] I´m now a certified high voltage distribution technician (Up to 20.000 Volts). Only 4 more exams before I´m qualified to open my own company!

Now I have a 2 hour drive to do and then I´m taking the family out for dinner! After that I have been promised some quality AE time to do the turn for Erik and update the AAR! [:)]

Congrats, man. I've been on both sides of those "I failed it!" exam days.

Is one of the four exams on accounting? [:)]

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I passed the exam! [X(] Not only did I pass it I did so with flying colors gettin a 82% score! When I was driving there this morning I was SURE I was going to fail. Very glad I was wrong! [:)] I´m now a certified high voltage distribution technician (Up to 20.000 Volts). Only 4 more exams before I´m qualified to open my own company!

Now I have a 2 hour drive to do and then I´m taking the family out for dinner! After that I have been promised some quality AE time to do the turn for Erik and update the AAR! [:)]

Congrats, man!

[witpqs]

Congratulations!

[ny59giants]

Congrats!! [&o] [:D] [&o]

I have three exams to take to get my LPC (Licensed Professional Counselor). It would have been easier to take the exams just after graduate school, but.....

[poodlebrain]

Is this where we are supposed to insert lame jokes about you now being able to "shock" the Japanese? Congratulations. Professional certification examinations are always significant achievements. Hopefully your good spirits will carry over to AE, and you will be inspired in your offensive operations for the remainder of 1944.

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I passed the exam! [X(] Not only did I pass it I did so with flying colors gettin a 82% score! When I was driving there this morning I was SURE I was going to fail. Very glad I was wrong! [:)] I´m now a certified high voltage distribution technician (Up to 20.000 Volts). Only 4 more exams before I´m qualified to open my own company!

Now I have a 2 hour drive to do and then I´m taking the family out for dinner! After that I have been promised some quality AE time to do the turn for Erik and update the AAR! [:)]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

Is this where we are supposed to insert lame jokes about you now being able to "shock" the Japanese? Congratulations. Professional certification examinations are always significant achievements. Hopefully your good spirits will carry over to AE, and you will be inspired in your offensive operations for the remainder of 1944.

OK, poodlebrain, just for you ...

More power to you Jocke! [:'(]

[JocMeister]

Thank you guys! [:)] I´m very pleased with myself. It was one of the worst exams I have done so far. The four I have left will be a lot easier since they are directly connected with my work. So most of it I know already (I hope)

Bullwinkle,

No accounting for me! In Sweden though you are required by law to have an accountant go through all your papers once per year if you start a company! They cost a fortune of course! [:D]