Engineers and Shore Parties

[Icedawg]

ORIGINAL: Mac Linehan

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

ORIGINAL: JWE



No.

It provides load/unload support at the same rate as equivalent SavSup squads. But it does nothing else. It does not support repair. It does not support rearm. It is not extended by action of an appropriate HQ unit. It does not support anything except load/unload in the hex where it is at. And the AI doesn't recognize it, so the AI doesn't (can't) use it.

SavSup? or NavSup?

I assume NavSup.

So Shore Parties' unload bonus is equal in magnitude to that of Naval Support. And that's all they do - unload. Got it.

Icedawg -

Stock AE Naval Support both rearmed / repaired and assisted in loading / unloading. Babes has separated the rearm / repair support from the "load / unload" aspect. Shore Party - separately tagged to a device (AE Game editor, device menu) represents stevedores and other manpower used strictly to help load / unload.

In Stock AE, Naval Support is more common. In Babes, Naval support is few and far between - and should be protected and based with care. Shore Party is more common, and because separate, can be used closer to the front lines, thus gives the player more flexibility.

In Babes, a Shore Party tagged device i.e. "IJN Construction Labor Squad" (assists load/unload only) is part of the "2nd Naval Construction Battalion, Engineer" which also includes "IJN Construction Engineering Squad" devices (that build, but do not help load / unload). 2nd Nav Const Bn is currently at Miri, enlarging the airfield there. The engineers expand the airfield, the Labor Squad devices help unload the tons of supply needed to keep the engineers in business - in a small size two port.

The 3rd Fleet Naval HQ, with x90 Naval Support devices, is located at Takao, Formosa - a size four port - and major staging base. 90 Naval support in a size four port can rearm a good range of shipborne weapons (x5 per Nav Support Squad), in addition to providing repair points in conjunction with the port.

Hope that this helps.

I think I have it right <grin>

Mac

Thanks for the confirmation on shore parties' sole ability - unloading ships.

But are you sure about the construction labor squads? The OP says they don't have shore party capability. Therefore, I would assume they don't help unload. Accordin to the OP, all they do is sit there taking up space and consuming supplies. Sounds like my wife's description of me sometimes! [:D]

[Mac Linehan]

Icedawg -

You are absolutely correct. Babes Device 717 "IJN Construction Labor Squad" is not Shore Party tagged in stock Babes. In my mod, I tagged it as Shore Party capable. Forgot to mention that... <sigh>

The ability to tag devices as shore party from the AE Editor Device menu is just another awesome tool to reflect personal preferences.

Thank You for catching my mistake, and am so glad that you are giving Babes a spin!

Mac

[JWE]

Hi Mac. You have always been so gracious about appreciating the Babes mods that I almost hate to do this, but ... need to clarify the philosophy a teensy bit, but you, of all people, deserve to get it.

Shore Party switches are set for component squads of certain specific kinds of units. To have an SP switch, the squad (device) needs to be part of a unit that has an integral component of barges (Japanese) or lighters/LCxx (Allied). The SP switch denotes more a "boat" component. So IJA Shipping Eng, and IJN Port Support squads represent the capabilities of their integral Daihatsus rather than their manpower/skill content. Same with the Allies; you got some Seabee stevedores in the Spec Bns, but just look at all the lighters in the TO&E. Much like Marine (and laterly Army) AmphTrac units. They ain't tanks, they are transport. So the LVT-1s are SP flagged, because they were and because they did.

SP is a switch for specific unit types. It's for "boys with boats", not crookt bakt stevedores. Your IJN (or whatever) Construction Labor squad is a horde of Chinese/Korean/Indonesian/Melanesian conscript coolies with shovels. Not goodnik for a SP switch. Can (should) substitute a proportion of SP tagged devices, or add a platoon of SP tagged devices. That's how Japan did it. The whole idea is that these puppys were limited; one must deploy them carefully.

Hope I didn't rain on your parade too badly; there's a break in the clouds coming, and Mr Sun is ready to shine.

Ciao. John

[JWE]

oops

[Mac Linehan]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Hi Mac. You have always been so gracious about appreciating the Babes mods that I almost hate to do this, but ... need to clarify the philosophy a teensy bit, but you, of all people, deserve to get it.

Shore Party switches are set for component squads of certain specific kinds of units. To have an SP switch, the squad (device) needs to be part of a unit that has an integral component of barges (Japanese) or lighters/LCxx (Allied). The SP switch denotes more a "boat" component. So IJA Shipping Eng, and IJN Port Support squads represent the capabilities of their integral Daihatsus rather than their manpower/skill content. Same with the Allies; you got some Seabee stevedores in the Spec Bns, but just look at all the lighters in the TO&E. Much like Marine (and laterly Army) AmphTrac units. They ain't tanks, they are transport. So the LVT-1s are SP flagged, because they were and because they did.

SP is a switch for specific unit types. It's for "boys with boats", not crookt bakt stevedores. Your IJN (or whatever) Construction Labor squad is a horde of Chinese/Korean/Indonesian/Melanesian conscript coolies with shovels. Not goodnik for a SP switch. Can (should) substitute a proportion of SP tagged devices, or add a platoon of SP tagged devices. That's how Japan did it. The whole idea is that these puppys were limited; one must deploy them carefully.

Hope I didn't rain on your parade too badly; there's a break in the clouds coming, and Mr Sun is ready to shine.

Ciao. John

John -

Thank You for the clarification; this makes sense - and I am loving it!

There is so much depth and more to learn, I really appreciate your guidance and help Sir!

Edit: JWE - sat for a moment and carefully reread (several times) your explanation and thought about what you were trying to communicate. I think I got it, and will take care to use the tag as the Babes Team philosophy intended. The "barges and lighters/LCxx" concept is crystal clear; I was focused on the "more laborers pier side" view and missed the larger concept. So ix-nay on my enthusiastic (but uninformed <sigh>) ShP tagging of the unwashed masses...

What an awesome game and mod. And this is just the tip of the iceberg... <grin>

Mac

[Gridley380]

So the USN Special Engineer and Base Engineer squads are identical? (Both Y,N,Y,N)

[Gridley380]

2nd question: are US Army Construction Engineers (found in EABs and Construction Regiments) the same as USN Construction Engineers?

[Skyros]

What determines whether a unit can reduce fortifications, is it the Type = Engineer and the anti-armor at a certain value~25?

[Mac Linehan]

Original -

Skyros:

What determines whether a unit can reduce fortifications, is it the Type = Engineer and the anti-armor at a certain value~25?


Skyros -

Attached is a Microsoft Word document that I made to help me understand how the differing Babes Shore Party and Engineering devices work and interact.

I think I have it right - if not, Gents; please correct me.

Hope this helps. Babes - in all it's versions, is an awesome Mod and well worth the effort.

Mac

[Skyros]

Thanks Mac, I want to make a Babes Scenario my next game.

[Mac Linehan]

You, Sir, are very welcome!

Mac

[oldman45]

I am glad this thread was dragged up, it was a good refresher.

[Symon]

Had a system crash and pm and email was available for a bit. But back up now. Yes, Eng (and Sup) data is distributed across the various combat characteristics. Babes uses the code to determine the highs and lows and shape of the of the combat paradigm. Ain't perfect, but at least we are trying to fit things into how the engine does it.

JWE