Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[SBD]

Sorry to hear about this problem. It might help if you can find a weopon that will take down their sheilds first. Ooops... sorry, thinking of Distant Worlds. Anyway, hope you can find a resolution to this & continue your game.

[paullus99]

That really stinks - I hadn't realized that the transport functions were so off as to allow a Japanese player to not only pull out tens of thousands of troops within a few days, but to keep doing it over and over and over again without much in the way of losses....since when was the Japanese air transport fleet larger than the AMC that we have today?

[JocMeister]

Yeah it sucks pretty badly. To add injury to insult it looks like it may even be possible to airlift out troops with little to no loss from a 100% wrecked airfield. This might explain why it doesn´t help to close the port to stop Float transports. Might be that the whole transport routine is completely broken.

I don´t want to set off any alarm bells yet though as it might be my sandbox acting crazy.

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[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

That really stinks - I hadn't realized that the transport functions were so off as to allow a Japanese player to not only pull out tens of thousands of troops within a few days, but to keep doing it over and over and over again without much in the way of losses....since when was the Japanese air transport fleet larger than the AMC that we have today?

Well, I don´t think anyone realises this. I have had a hunch for a long time something is not right. But sadly its not possible to question game workings on the forum anymore. I have given up on that at least. So I rant here in my AAR instead! [;)]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

If transports of the 2nd WW era can lift heavy stuff then there is something seriously wrong - this should not be possible - never mind the lift capacity, how do they actually get the stuff on board?

There also should be serious ops losses and downtime for maintenance.....

Roger

Been wrong for while now Roger. The game is supposed to limit nothing larger than a 37mm AT gun by airlift.

I have routinely used the Dutch flying boats to air transport the entire Dutch cavalry (armored cars and all) to Koepang. Combine the ability to airlift anything with imperviousness to interception and even Hitler could have won at Stalingrad. One can only hope it will be addressed.

[RogerJNeilson]

Slaps face in amazement........

Roger

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Slaps face in amazement........

Roger

I hope that was your own face, Roger! [:D]

Jocke, if your opponent started building a large seaplane A/T fleet after he first learned that this game feature was borked, that is truly "gamey". I think most players do not experience these issues because the number of large seaplanes normally built is small.

Your recent progress in the Philippines and DEI leaves me the impression you were outplaying him and winning the game, as the Allies should in 1944. If the game wraps up you can be happy with your accomplishments in it. Don't let the sour taste of the airlift issue be the dominant memory! [:)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

If transports of the 2nd WW era can lift heavy stuff then there is something seriously wrong - this should not be possible - never mind the lift capacity, how do they actually get the stuff on board?

There also should be serious ops losses and downtime for maintenance.....

Roger

Been wrong for while now Roger. The game is supposed to limit nothing larger than a 37mm AT gun by airlift.

I have routinely used the Dutch flying boats to air transport the entire Dutch cavalry (armored cars and all) to Koepang. Combine the ability to airlift anything with imperviousness to interception and even Hitler could have won at Stalingrad. One can only hope it will be addressed.

Have you reported this to Michael? He might be able to fix it.

[witpqs]

Jocke,

Don't despair. You and Obvert are hunting down whatever is going on and Michael might be able to address it. Also keep in mind Roger's comments about game mechanics versus tactics that you just have to figure out counters to. You and Obvert are working together to figure out the mechanics - determine for sure if there is a bug and how it works - so hopefully it can get sorted out.

[8D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Well, I don´t think anyone realises this. I have had a hunch for a long time something is not right. But sadly its not possible to question game workings on the forum anymore. I have given up on that at least. So I rant here in my AAR instead! [;)]

I wrote a long post on why this whole matter is very much to your benefit and not detriment, but of course the server ate it and of course this one time I didn't pre-save.

So I'll just say, take a look at what this cost you versus what you got. You are far, far ahead of where you'd be if you had been forced to fight for the base. He handed it to you in exchange for taking damaged troops to a shrinking rear at very high cost in transport supplies, pilot fatigue, ops losses, and the VPs he handed you without a fight.

You gained time, the most valuable commodity.

You job is not to crush, kill, destroy. It's to get in range of the HI and remove Japan's means to resist. Any time he gives you forward real estate without a fight, take it!

I hope you don't lose this game over this issue. I hope it will be looked at, but it's small beer in the greater scheme of things. He's weaker now with more troops at a low-supply Manila. You're stronger with the VPs on Mindanao and troops that aren't beat up taking the base. Move on and hope he next evacs everybody to Formosa.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

If transports of the 2nd WW era can lift heavy stuff then there is something seriously wrong - this should not be possible - never mind the lift capacity, how do they actually get the stuff on board?

There also should be serious ops losses and downtime for maintenance.....

Roger

Been wrong for while now Roger. The game is supposed to limit nothing larger than a 37mm AT gun by airlift.

I have routinely used the Dutch flying boats to air transport the entire Dutch cavalry (armored cars and all) to Koepang. Combine the ability to airlift anything with imperviousness to interception and even Hitler could have won at Stalingrad. One can only hope it will be addressed.

Have you reported this to Michael? He might be able to fix it.

Never reported it and have since long saved over the game I noticed it in. I did just start a new game and am at the point of transferring Dutch forces to fortress Koepang. I'll try and make it happen again and send in a report.

in my last game I decided to transfer the as much of the Dutch ground force as possible to the redoubt I was building at Koepang. I used air transport exclusively since restricted units can't be sea transported. I even sent the cavalry squadrons hoping that I could later replace from the pool the fragment of actual vehicles that would be left behind on Java once the fragment was destroyed by the Japanese. I watched the progress of the air transport and eventually only a fragment with the vehicles was left as expected. I looked a few days later and the fragment was gone and the vehicles were with the parent at Koepang!

I should be able to recreate it.
!

[JocMeister]

Thanks guys! [&o]

I asked Erik if he had done some "creative fiddling" to get more Float transports or transports in general. He says he hasn´t and that it can´t be done so this ability exists for all Japanese players.

He and I of course have wildly differing views on this. He think that he is paying for the lifted out troops with aircraft lost to OPS (only 1-2 per turn at best) and supply used to do it. I´m certainly not agreeing with this.

This cost must be but a fragment of what it would cost to rebuild the unit from scratch. He is saving HI, PPs, Supply and lots and lots of time by getting them out by air. And most importantly his units keep their EXP. I don´t know the total cost and time for rebuilding a Japanese ID. But it can´t be equal to having 20-50% flown out by a unstoppable airbridge and then filled out again.

When a units is completely destroyed it has to be bought back with PPs. This process also takes 90-120 days I think? Then the unit has to be filled out and retrained. This takes months. A 90 EXP unit does not return a 90 EXP unit. It returns with the national value. 40? for US troops I think. Moral also starts around that number. I´m guessing he is cutting the time to get them back in combat by at least 2-3 months and that is not taking into account the time to get EXP up which can´t be fully trained back.

This also does not take into account the massive allied effort that has been spent over the last few months trying to avoid just this. I would say my bomber force has spent 80% of its missions trying to keep airfields and troops suppressed to annihilate them at Mindanao. 3 months wasted and undone in 4 days.

[Q-Ball]

This isn't a criticism of my opponent Greyjoy, and I haven't brought it up, but he's been doing the same thing in our game.

The Japanese 56th Division was completely isolated at Port Moresby; didn't matter, because it was airlifted out to Aitape, where it was defeated.

It was then airlifted out via boat, refreshed, then airlifted into Kaimana (no airstrip), when I landed there.

It will probably be airlifted out again, where I will have to fight it a 4th time at some other base

All of this done by flying boat, and all under an Allied LRCAP from less than 3 hexes

Greyjoy converted all IJN transport units to the Emily Transport, which gives him somewhere around 70-90 operational at any one time; plenty to lift a division in a few days, and some left over to provide supply to isolated garrisons

It is very easy to airlift. Greyjoy has airlifted out probably well over 300,000 troops that were isolated, with no hope of reinforcement by sea, using only flying boats. The capacity of the Emily Boat is enough to lift howitzers and all but the heaviest pieces of artillery and tanks.

A solution would be to look into the CAP routines, to see if intercepting transports can be easier.

IRL, I would think intercepting an Emily Transport attempting to load troops from base is a pretty easy target

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I wrote a long post on why this whole matter is very much to your benefit and not detriment, but of course the server ate it and of course this one time I didn't pre-save.

So I'll just say, take a look at what this cost you versus what you got. You are far, far ahead of where you'd be if you had been forced to fight for the base. He handed it to you in exchange for taking damaged troops to a shrinking rear at very high cost in transport supplies, pilot fatigue, ops losses, and the VPs he handed you without a fight.

You gained time, the most valuable commodity.

You job is not to crush, kill, destroy. It's to get in range of the HI and remove Japan's means to resist. Any time he gives you forward real estate without a fight, take it!

I hope you don't lose this game over this issue. I hope it will be looked at, but it's small beer in the greater scheme of things. He's weaker now with more troops at a low-supply Manila. You're stronger with the VPs on Mindanao and troops that aren't beat up taking the base. Move on and hope he next evacs everybody to Formosa.

Its a shame your first answer got wiped. I hate when that happens. Never happens when you did just a quick thing either!

Well, the thing here is that his troops were already beaten and I had taken the losses at Cagayan after a 50 day siege. His 50.000 men were reduced to about 200 AV. He then chose to retreat with me in pursuit. So it was already a done deal and I had payed the price. But after Maybalay his troops got kicked to Davao. I of course set after him but its mountain without a road I move only at a rate of 2 per turn. This takes time. And lo and behold when over the course of 4 days the troops go from 52.000 men to 27.000 despite a wrecked AF and 200 Fighters on LRCAP.

So basically I have already paid good blood money for this in time and troops. And now I was just cheated on the prize. That sucks pretty badly. So basically I didn´t buy time. I lost time. [:(]

So summarize. He kept me at Cayguan for as long as possible then got the hell out. By his own admission he would never have put the troops there in the first place if he hadn´t know he could get them out. That doesn´t sit very well with me. [:(]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Thanks guys! [&o]

I asked Erik if he had done some "creative fiddling" to get more Float transports or transports in general. He says he hasn´t and that it can´t be done so this ability exists for all Japanese players.

He and I of course have wildly differing views on this. He think that he is paying for the lifted out troops with aircraft lost to OPS (only 1-2 per turn at best) and supply used to do it. I´m certainly not agreeing with this.

This cost must be but a fragment of what it would cost to rebuild the unit from scratch. He is saving HI, PPs, Supply and lots and lots of time by getting them out by air. And most importantly his units keep their EXP. I don´t know the total cost and time for rebuilding a Japanese ID. But it can´t be equal to having 20-50% flown out by a unstoppable airbridge and then filled out again.

When a units is completely destroyed it has to be bought back with PPs. This process also takes 90-120 days I think? Then the unit has to be filled out and retrained. This takes months. A 90 EXP unit does not return a 90 EXP unit. It returns with the national value. 40? for US troops I think. Moral also starts around that number. I´m guessing he is cutting the time to get them back in combat by at least 2-3 months and that is not taking into account the time to get EXP up which can´t be fully trained back.

This also does not take into account the massive allied effort that has been spent over the last few months trying to avoid just this. I would say my bomber force has spent 80% of its missions trying to keep airfields and troops suppressed to annihilate them at Mindanao. 3 months wasted and undone in 4 days.

EXP is a good point in his favor. But you're discounting the massive, and I mean massive amount of supply he'll eat on Luzon to return these troops to full strength. He can't even start without x2.

You're also discounting the HI he has spent to build this huge transport fleet. All multi-engine too, which he has had to build. So what? 600-900 fighters worth of effort? Plus pilots. Plus mission supplies. Plus use of av support on Luzon to keep them flying, which robs his tac air of repair services.

Manila makes I think 100 supply a day. What else does he have there? Rebuilding LCUs might make the original occupants of Luzon combat ineffective on a supply basis.

You also don't HAVE to go chase them to Luzon, at least not now. What else could you do with the still-fresh troops on Mindanao? Think targets, not destroying LCUs. Get closer!!!

("Marianas" he's been muttering for months . . .) [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
That doesn´t sit very well with me. [:(]

OK. Are you prepared to chuck the game over it? I hope not. You're winning.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

This isn't a criticism of my opponent Greyjoy, and I haven't brought it up, but he's been doing the same thing in our game.

The Japanese 56th Division was completely isolated at Port Moresby; didn't matter, because it was airlifted out to Aitape, where it was defeated.

It was then airlifted out via boat, refreshed, then airlifted into Kaimana (no airstrip), when I landed there.

It will probably be airlifted out again, where I will have to fight it a 4th time at some other base

All of this done by flying boat, and all under an Allied LRCAP from less than 3 hexes

Greyjoy converted all IJN transport units to the Emily Transport, which gives him somewhere around 70-90 operational at any one time; plenty to lift a division in a few days, and some left over to provide supply to isolated garrisons

It is very easy to airlift. Greyjoy has airlifted out probably well over 300,000 troops that were isolated, with no hope of reinforcement by sea, using only flying boats. The capacity of the Emily Boat is enough to lift howitzers and all but the heaviest pieces of artillery and tanks.

A solution would be to look into the CAP routines, to see if intercepting transports can be easier.

IRL, I would think intercepting an Emily Transport attempting to load troops from base is a pretty easy target

Hey! [:)]

Well that is pretty much exactly what I have seen throughout my game. I don´t like it at all. But I though with all those "transport intercepted" messages I was making him pay for it. Turns out he only pays regular OPS losses. Far, far too cheap for my liking.

[JocMeister]

Bullwinkle,

You are most probably right and I will most probably see that eventually.

But right now it just feels... "meh". Erik want to continue and thinks this is just a "small thing". I wonder if he would have thought the same if I had airlifted out the entire US garrison at the PI to Java in 42 or something. And he had to sit by and just watch.

He is hinting at that I might feel low because of the losses I suffered at the Marianas recently. Lol? 1 CVE, 1 DE, 2 PFs, 4 Tankers and a couple of xAKs. Really? [:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Bullwinkle,

You are most probably right and I will most probably see that eventually.

But right now it just feels... "meh". Erik want to continue and thinks this is just a "small thing". I wonder if he would have thought the same if I had airlifted out the entire US garrison at the PI to Java in 42 or something. And he had to sit by and just watch.

He is hinting at that I might feel low because of the losses I suffered at the Marianas recently. Lol? 1 CVE, 1 DE, 2 PFs, 4 Tankers and a couple of xAKs. Really? [:D]

Clearly you are winning the psyops struggle. [:)]

Strike! Strike now!!!!![:'(]

[Lokasenna]

I agree with the Moose. Take it to him hard.

I also wonder if, since he's pulling all these troops back to a place he expects you to fight next and it's become something of a habit... is there a hole anywhere that you can slip through (or sail around) and strike deep? Catch him off balance with his air transport out of place. If you take the target quickly enough (a few days? [8|]), he won't be able to reinforce by air. But if you don't, you move his air transport units out from what could be your next target. Multiple operations at once could help alleviate this issue.

Another thing: has his airlift out of Mindanao stopped him from airlifting out of the way of your juggernaut in Burma?