Maas-Rijn adapted - 2 extra divisions

[skarp]

re accidents please do check - I'm interested to know what dave thinks.

re: alternatives - do you have them posted? I'll certainly like to give them a go once I've tired of or won this scenario and finished the historical.


re tactics. The other thing I think has helped me is the realisation that first airborne is not strong enough to take and hold the main Arnhem bridge and maintain the supply line to the DZ. The rest follows from there.

Stop here unless you wanna hear my extended thoughts on 1st airborne in arnhem

Therefore it's best to keep it intact until support from XXX corps is available. Still it's not enough to just bunker down I think. As many roads into Arnhem need to be blocked as possible in the right locations - just a single company will cause 2-3 hours delay if not much more which will help immensely elsewhere. Managed well they can withdraw successfully while enemy is reorganising with few casualties. I use my arty liberally to support these roadblocks as a priority over other tasks. With small forces occupied doing that 1st airborne has a considerable superiority in numbers. Aim to stake out units on the perimeter and sweep for axis forces inside. Done well, Kraft can be utterly destroyed and Harder given a good smacking so that by late evening it's possible to divert forces to blocking enemy reinforcements that have overcome the original roadblocks. Speed and a sense of desperation are vital. Rapid movement and fire plus max losses will save lives ammo and energy later when the enemy is forced to attack your well dug in troops. Once there reconstruct your shattered command structure to reduce orders delay and use reinforcements to trap enemy forces pressing your perimeter. As you can see that's got 1st airborne through to day six. Here ends the lecture.

[skarp]

any idea where this lot spawned from [;)]

[dazkaz15]

Dornenburg. I know because I had a HQ in it at the time with its line Coy's guarding the bridges, when a whole armoured kampfgruppe spawned on it!
That was some time during Day 5 though.
If that's where they where historically it would be good if they could be put on the map at the start, but with a 5 day initial order's delay.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Yes, I remember someone else mentioning that tactic - sending the bases to their doom. Needs fixing if we need to do that!

How did you assign the artillery for exclusive use? You mean you grouped them with 1st and 4th Para?

Sorry only just seen this question:
No I set them to rest after bombard, and micro managed them exclusively, for the defence of the Arnhem Bridgehead.
Would be interesting to know if the AI would use them effectively if I was to group them with the Brigade HQ's that are in the bridgehead, and tick direct artillery support only.

[Phoenix100]

The problem grouping them, that I've had, Daz - which is why I asked, is that you then have no control over where the AI sites them - and often it's silly.

[Phoenix100]

Your tactics lecture very informative, Skarp. Have you any pictures of your blocking positions in Arnhem, so I can get the hang of what you mean.

And the point about reducing orders delay - do you mean you CTRL- click new groupings giving them, thus, new superiors? Does that really work to get rid of the hideous one-hour-delay setting defend orders, for example?

And how have you dealt with the dwindling jeeps problem? Or has it not occurred for you? For me, now (perhaps now I'm really noticing it) it seems that it's very easy for supply to get interdicted where troops are engaged or even just within range of the enemy. I don't know the mechanics of it, don't know how it works, and hence it seems completely capricious to me - sometimes a few enemy units seem to cut off the rear of the units they're engaged with, sometimes they don't, sometimes a huge enemy force completely isolates those units it is engaging (just by being there attacking them, I mean, not by actually going round the back and cutting the lines), sometimes that doesn't happen and some supply gets through. But certainly my main problem with the historical scenario (and it's not completely accurate - there should at least be a drop zone in Oosterbeek too, as they did repeatedly try to drop there and small amounts did get through)is that no matter what tactics I try, over about 4 days I get enough 100% interdiction messages to lose ALL my jeeps for some bases, and then it's only a matter of time before the troops surrender. You haven't had this issue?

[Phoenix100]

The Doornenburg units magically appearing are in the original. I thought I'd taken them out. I don't know why they appear like that. Not sure who designed the original, I think it was Simovitch. If he stops by maybe he could explain. There will be a reason, no doubt.

[Phoenix100]

I haven't posted up any other variants because they're all a it rough and ready, Skarp. When I finally settle on the one I most like I'll post it, maybe. It will be very close to the original, I think. Maybe with small CDM forces (since this was something the para commanders seriously wanted and it was eminently do-able), an additional Oosterbeek SEP, increased air strikes, slightly greater supply levels, but otherwise same landing zones and drop schedule (no double drop). Unless add the Poles in as a successful Day 1 drop. Maybe bring XXX Corps arrival forward by 8 hours, because they really could have got there quicker it seems, if they hadn't wanted to bed down each night and start at midday!! Maybe up the stats for some para units a little. Plus increase the jeeps numbers (by enlarging the airborne bases) to try to mitigate that engine issue. That would make a fairly realistic 'what-if', I think - as all that could have happened.

It will still require a tactical response to the First AB problem - which is that, as you say, they cannot hold the Arnhem bridgehead without being cut-off before XXX Corps get through.

[simovitch]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

The Doornenburg units magically appearing are in the original. I thought I'd taken them out. I don't know why they appear like that. Not sure who designed the original, I think it was Simovitch. If he stops by maybe he could explain. There will be a reason, no doubt.

These units represent the German forces that were historically ferried across the river at Doornenburg/Pannerden as reinforcements. There was a significant ferry operation located there during the battle.

From www.defendingarnhem.com:
The II SS Pz Kps allocated the 10th SS Panzer Division to defend Nijmegen and its road and rail bridge across the Waal. However due to the British taking the Arnhem Road bridge, the Germans had to find alternate means to get to Nijmegen and made extensive use of the Ferry at Pannerden.

[skarp]

fair enough simovitch, I understand the history. My point was my troops have already blown the ferries and there's an anti-tank platoon on overwatch at the site. [;)]

[skarp]

hi phoenix

x marks initial roadblocks, green areas main lines of defence with the early objective of trapping and destroying any axis units within. Once recalled I've had no difficulty supplying any units so the bases have not suffered attrition.

A coup de main glider assault is certainly a tempting option. The downside is of course stuck north of the Rhine the enemy has no alternative but to concentrate on 1st AB rather than head south to hold Nijmegen (which is where the Germans correctly knew the battle would be won or lost...). IMO the only sensible MG would have involved seizing Deelen airfield as a base which would probably been initially costly but at least looks like a viable supply route might be maintained to the bridges.

XXX corps is held up mainly by the destruction of the bridge at Son and the failure of Gavin to secure Nijmegen and its bridges on days one or two. Nearly all the allied forces in MG lacked the sense of urgency that the operation demanded.

Re: Orders delay - I still suffer - I meant that because I micromanage the initial stages it's necessary to reattach later to avoid overloading the on-map boss.

[Phoenix100]

The on-map boss is overloaded by units you take control over yourself? I seem to have missed this rather crucial point in all my years playing this thing. Doh... What happens - they nominally come under the on-map boss for delay purposes when you issue a unit direct orders?

Like the picture. Thanks. Yes, it's true that if you bottle up the Axis armour then 1AB is heavily outnumbered. But if you don't it's hard to get XXX Corps across the Waal, so you lose out anyway.

My own thinking is that you need at least two more Regiments/Brigades in the Arnhem sector and you need to strip the Nijmegan sector to achieve this. All that is really required for MG to succeed is that you can hold Arnhem until XXX Corps get there. So you need a stronger force that can protect resupply drops and not be completely cut off from those SEPs. Nijmegan is not very hard to 'win' if the Axis is bottled in Arnhem, and you can actually leave Grave and Honighutje to XXX Corps without too many problems.

I think the answer - if we're to stick with the historical forces and roughly historical drop schedule - is to drop, say, the 504PIR on Galgen Heath, directly nth of Arnhem (imagine the allies actually got accurate intelligence about the absence of a heavy flak presence at Deelen - because it was their fear that there was massive flak at Deelen that stopped them dropping on Galgen, or Deelen, or east of the rail yards, or near Elden, all of which zones were considered, but rejected because the flights paths would take the drop into the range of the Deelen flak) with a SEP on Galgen, then set up blocking positions in a corridor down to the bridge. Hold the bridge from the nth side only, really (slight presence sth side) because the sth side is a flat, open kill zone. Drop CDM forces east of the rail yards, the rest as happened historically, but no SEP out to the north west, and do the second day drops on Galgen too. Or even just drop everyone else on Galgen, forget the Renkum and Joanna DZs entirely.

In addition, make the effort to get the Poles in on day 2.

Or you could land the 325GIR on Galgen, leave the 504 in Nijmegan. Let the Corps base (Browning) come in by land with XXX Corps (that saves 37 gliders to help drop the 325th on day 1)

I would put resupply SEPs near Hess, close down the DZ N SEP after the day 2 drops for the 82nd (or even drop those guns near Hees - there's open land near the sports stadium where the 82nds day 2 arty could come in - then you could leave DZ N on day 1). Close down the original 504 SEP too after day 1. If the 325 are to drop on Galgen with the Brits, then drop the 504 nearer Nijmegan. Let XXX Corps take Grave etc.

That would all be more or less historically possible, and might give enough power to 1AB to hold out. I think they would have to hold until Day 6, to be realistic. By day 2 you would have 2 extra regiments in the Arnhem sector. It's like the Deelen idea - except uses Galgen Heath instead. The jeep thing would need to be fixed for it to work - meanwhile I would implement my workaround.

If you're interested I can work it up and send you it, then we can play it through and try it.

[skarp]

Re overloaded on-map boss. I'm unsure what happens to be honest. The manual says it's bad so I've been trying to avoid it even though I micromanage. Everything takes at least an hour. Best ask the developers.

I've had no special difficulty crossing the Waal. Perhaps because of the AI exhausting itself trying to cross south but the north bank is pretty indefensible being a salient. Move armour up to the waters edge on all sides of the south bank and pound mercilessly with 30 corps guns. Cross the rail bridge under cover of darkness. Of course this appears very different when 1AB is desperate for relief but in my case it isn't. The Germans have plenty south of the Rhine even if the bridges at Arnhem are held to prevent a speedy march north.

RE: Your plan Galgen heath itself is probably too restricted for a mass drop. But I'd certainly drop paras north or east of Arnhem rather than west because the way into Arnhem is too easy to block around Deipendaal/West Arnhem. I don't feel the need for US troops north of the Waal - won't the supply base issue be a problem anyway? I find myself short of troops for secondary ops at Nijmegen as it is. An extra brigade of Poles would be very useful but I think I could do it without just better DZs alone. As you suggest forget the Renkum and Joanna DZs entirely. Same with Corps Command - the arty for 82nd corps is far more valuable though as a replacement cargo than anything I can think of. Would it fit? DZ N is a pain but my efforts to defend it have lead me to discover just how easily the German counterattack from the east of Nijmegen can be bogged down close to its entry points.

I'll give it a go if you knock a scenario together. I can't promise when - I shouldn't be playing so much HTTR as it is!

In your original scenario the pocket north of Oosterbeek is very nearly clear now and I'm shifting forces to meet growing attacks from the North and with an eye on repeating the tactic if 1st AB is strong enough. Velp is holding easily. South of the Rhine the unexpected Germans at Doorenburg and Elst caused some problems but are pretty much contained - although SS Pz Recon Bn 9 is currently blocking the main road at a choke point which is a nuisance. It's surrounded and I'll crush them with a night attack I hope. Nijmegen has held but too many units were diverted to the north for a tidy battle. So everything's a bit scattered down there and things were a bit sticky for 48 hours but I feel my tactic of forward defence has paid off - the Axis are blocked everywhere now and don't seem capable of mounting a concerted attack anywhere - anything is swiftly crushed by arty. I doubt I need XXX corps at all.

I've added a screen of the cleared pocket as of now and I'll get a casualty report next.

[skarp]

I think the axis are pretty well spent now but I'll play on until XXX Corps arrive.

[Phoenix100]

Excellent. Now I'll give you a version of the Sceaming Eagles at Eindhoven without the Screaming Eagles, just XXX Corps. If they can get through by daybreak day 3 then we've cracked it..... Joking...

[skarp]

Maybe one day [;)]

Anyway it's now day 4 0701hrs. Guards' tanks are approaching Arnhem, having only fired a few shots on the way. The recon troop and HQ have already crossed the bridge to the cheering of paras and curious Dutch civilians who had heard motor traffic on the bridge and ventured out to investigate; others are hurrying to throng the streets. A little fighting continues in the suburbs but the city has been otherwise free of Germans for 48 hours. Elsewhere Velp has held despite the fiercest fighting yet and the first loss of a position in the town. A counter attack is being prepared. North of Arnhem 1st FJ Army HQ is skulking somewhere in the woods with allied troops on three sides and blocking the road out. 10th SS Pz Division HQ was trapped on the banks on the Rhine and surrendered during the night. 69 brigade seems to have a clear run to Arnhem. What now?

The question was never even asked of course. Historically I wonder if Monty could have found the men to exploit the charge over the Rhine. Arnhem's bridge in itself was meaningless unless exploited. In my game it's good as won. I've managed without XXX Corps so far and can't see why I couldn't continue until day 10. Still XXX Corps is very powerful - could I use it to force the AI to concede defeat before the time is up?

[skarp]

Scores on the doors

As yet I've suffered more casualties (just!) from the drop than enemy action. Other than a few shots and a couple of AFVs lost XXX corps has not been involved. Note the high number of guns destroyed. The AI keeps exposing them in the front line.

[dazkaz15]

Good show, old chap!

[skarp]

It's a bit pointless to continue smacking around the AI but it's been good fun to have so many troops to play with [:D]

I've carried on for another hour, 1st FJ Army HQ has surrendered. Korps Felt HQ is already gone, as is 10th SS Pz HQ and 406 Inf Div HQ. I wonder how overloaded is whoever is in charge now. Must be closer to forcing a the AI to quit surely?

[Phoenix100]

Looks like it's all over. And would have been even if XXX Corps had needed another 6 days to fight it up alone from Eindhoven to Grave!! Which they certainly could have done in that time frame. So. All that was needed was twice the number of transports (almost) plus no reservations about dropping near targets and on polder. There you go. [8|]