CAP suggestions wanted

[Numdydar]

Well I can say what you describe has not been my experience. If I set the range at six and want them to escort, they do not seem to fly past the six hexes I set. Now there could be times where the AF commander overrides that setting, but I sure have not seen it or at least do not recall.

[LoBaron]

Whether this was originally intended or not can be discussed, but neither escort, nor bombing missions, or even or even LRCAP reach targets further away than the range setting allows.


Still, 1EyedJacks is right that the manual hints different. And actually how the manual describes it this settings would be far more powerful.

[Alfred]

The range issue was dealt with in post #1557 of Bullwinkle's AAR. That is why 1EyedJacks has not seen it.

The manual is not incorrect. Nor is there confusion on the subject.

1. Both CAP and LRCAP are not missions.

2. CAP and LRCAP is what is left over from some other dedicated mission.

3. The range set is for the purpose of that mission, be it escort, bombing, whatever but not CAP or LRCAP because as mentioned in point 1 above, they are not missions.

4. The overriding referred to in the manual and seen by players is when a target selected for a mission exceeds the currently assigned air group range, to reduce player micromanagement/forgetfulness, the new longer range is automatically substituted otherwise the target, which has been manually selected by the player could not be reached.

5. As a result of points 3 and 4 above, both CAP and LRCAP, provided they are capable of flying the additional distance, will have their range reset because they are not independent missions; they are bound by the parameters set for THE mission.

Alfred

[LoBaron]

Manual:
However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore this max range setting.

ORIGINAL: Alfred
4. The overriding referred to in the manual and seen by players is when a target selected for a mission exceeds the currently assigned air group range, to reduce player micromanagement/forgetfulness, the new longer range is automatically substituted otherwise the target, which has been manually selected by the player could not be reached.

Alfred, this is a subjective translation of what the manual actually says. The manual is very straight forward and usually does not leave so much room for different interpretations.

Had the intention been to formulate it like you say, the text would be:

However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF) more distant than the range set, then the max range will reset to the target distance.

[Cpt Sherwood]

Please see my edited post above, I made an error, it was a SWEEP mission, not a LRCAP mission. I am sorry about that.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Manual:
However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore this max range setting.

ORIGINAL: Alfred
4. The overriding referred to in the manual and seen by players is when a target selected for a mission exceeds the currently assigned air group range, to reduce player micromanagement/forgetfulness, the new longer range is automatically substituted otherwise the target, which has been manually selected by the player could not be reached.

Alfred, this is a subjective translation of what the manual actually says. The manual is very straight forward and usually does not leave so much room for different interpretations.

Had the intention been to formulate it like you say, the text would be:

However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF) more distant than the range set, then the max range will reset to the target distance.

The writing in the manual is anything but clear in my view, and often very ambiguous.

What would really help everyone in these kinds of threads is some examples from games or sand-boxes. All of these players must have some right? Instead of the difficulty of kind of knowing what we're talking about and then disagreeing as there is no concrete data to refer to, it just makes more sense to include something. I don't have the time unfortunately, and I'm not near the game machine now, and maybe that's the case for most.

Does anyone have time to run a few or some examples?

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The range issue was dealt with in post #1557 of Bullwinkle's AAR. That is why 1EyedJacks has not seen it.

The manual is not incorrect. Nor is there confusion on the subject.

1. Both CAP and LRCAP are not missions.

2. CAP and LRCAP is what is left over from some other dedicated mission.

3. The range set is for the purpose of that mission, be it escort, bombing, whatever but not CAP or LRCAP because as mentioned in point 1 above, they are not missions.

4. The overriding referred to in the manual and seen by players is when a target selected for a mission exceeds the currently assigned air group range, to reduce player micromanagement/forgetfulness, the new longer range is automatically substituted otherwise the target, which has been manually selected by the player could not be reached.

5. As a result of points 3 and 4 above, both CAP and LRCAP, provided they are capable of flying the additional distance, will have their range reset because they are not independent missions; they are bound by the parameters set for THE mission.

Alfred

First of all, let me say that I am ab-so-lutely offended that you and Bullwinkle had such a discussion and, considering my vast intellect and years of experience in playing the game and reading the manual, did not invite me to play! Hiding such conversations behind a private AAR that I am forsworn to stay out of is truely a gamey tactic. I, good sir, shall put in a protest!

Second of all - the manual is never wrong! This is pure Hearsay! Thou shallst be flogged and stoned for committing such thoughts to speech! Already there are humble Clerics of The Thread running about in the streets of every country known to man holding their manuals overhead whilst screaming at the very uppermost top of their lungs, "The manual is pure and true! Thanx be to the Thread!!!"

I tell you truely my dear Alfred, such thoughts shared amongst the masses shall have you excommunicated... Come back. Come back to the brotherhood of the Thread and repent. We shall wash your mind and make you whole again... [;)]

<sorry - another strange tangent did I go off on. But definitely tongue in cheek.> [:'(]

So if I understand you correctly regarding fighter air groups: If the primary mission is on - lets say Escort, and the Patrol Level is set to 100% LRCAP, and Range is set to 4, and the Target is set for Commander Discretion, then the air group shall never fly as 100% of the resources for the Primary mission have been assigned. In other words - there is no Commander Discretion for a LRCAP.

If instead, I set a target that does not exceed the Extended Range, the air group shall fly the LRCAP and the previous value in the Maximum Range Set field shall be replaced with the current range to the target I selected.

Yes?

[LoBaron]

While I understand how Alfred makes the distinction between 'mission' (escort, airfield attack, sweep,...) and 'leftovers' (CAP, LRCAP, train, rest), my personal opinion is that this classification does not always makes sense. There are overlaps on additional squadron settings, so depending on which 'leftover' you observe you can well view it as the primary mission.

IMHO a squadron set to [mission 'escort', 60%LRCAP, 40%rest] is on a LRCAP mission from a player´s perspective. I am aware of the specific differences, and which additional settings apply to what part of the general mission profile settings, so I don´t see the benefit in viewing such a setting as escort mission.

Target settings apply to LRCAP, alt settings apply to LRCAP, range settings apply to LRCAP.

The question if a distinction between primary mission and 'leftover' is useful is even more pressing when we approach such mission types as naval search and ASW. There the primary mission setting has no effect whatsoever - it does not matter whether you set your primary to ASW or search. The mission profile is defined by the percentage sliders exclusively.


I might have to point out that my disagreement with Alfred is with regards to the definition of what classifies as mission, not with regards to the effect such settings have on game mechanics.



To answer your questions 1EyedJacks:

There IS commander´s discretion for LRCAP. Without a target selected the percentage of planes assigned to LRCAP will patrol a hex within the preselected mission range.

And if you set a target withing the extended range of the plane type the range will reset to the range to target (if it was set lower previously) and the percentage of fighters assigned to LRCAP will patrol the assigned hex.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

If you have a LRCAP mission with a target 1 or more hexes away and range set to 0, they will not fly. I found this out the hard way.

It shouldn't work that way - at least from what I read in the manual:

Page 154 - the bottom of:
The Maximum Range sets the maximum range in hexes that the squadron will travel in order
to reach the target. The air unit will not exceed this distance when picking a target using
Commander’s Discretion whether the target is for a strike Mission, escort, or Long-range CAP.
However, if the air unit is assigned a specific target (base or TF), then the air unit will ignore
this max range setting.

I would be cautious here. You are putting way too much reliance on the manual which in many cases is wrong or either outdated due to the many patches put out since the manual was printed five years ago. Planes set to 0 range will not perform any mission outside of their own base hex, no matter the setting or conditions. If your range is set to zero and you set the mission to LRCAP and designate a location, (say, six hexes away) then the range will automatically reset to allow the aircraft to reach that location but will not be more than the number of hexes that your set target is. Likewise if you set a target that further away than normal range the plane will automatically add drop tanks without you having to set them-provided all other conditions for drop tanks are met.

But the important thing to remember is that the computer is not making a random decision to fly outside of the aircraft's range. The range of the unit automatically changes from zero when you set a target that is further away than zero.

If you set the range to 0 and leave it to commander's decision. The commander will never fly outside of the zero range limit under any condition. However, if you set that target for LRCAP six hexes away, the commander can then decide to fly other missions (escort or CAP outside of the base hex but no further than the range to the target you set for LRCAP. So you will "not" see your fighters escorting a bombing attack that flies seven hexes from your base.

Now if I could only get my f**king carrier commanders to act the same way.[;)]

[wegman58]

This thread seems to be a candidate for Alfred's update the manual project. (And if this is mentioned in that thread my apologies).

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: Jim Stevens

I wanted to solicit suggestions from the studio audience on how best to approach a problem that I am sure has been hashed over before but I can't find here.

In a single CV Air Combat task force I have been pondering how best to employ the fighter air asset when I have escort and CAP as their mission. It seems if I give the group maximum range the CAP may stray too far if there is anything that draws their attention away. If I set the range to zero as I would a group that is 100% dedicated to CAP that might hose the escort mission. Not knowing how the game would resolve the missions configured these two ways I thought I would see what the collective experience was with the veteran players here.

What do you vets think?

To keep it simple I use either Escort or Cap as the unit's only job for the turn. Units on CAP fly at range 0 and usually 50-60% on CAP - the rest blank - that way if you detect the raid far enough away the rest of the unit will attempt to join the battle. Assigned heights depends on anticipated attacks.

Units on escorting duty are set to max range of the bombers they will be escorting and no percentages set so the entire unit will fly escort - usually a couple thousand feet higher then either the escorted bombers or higher than anticipated enemy CAP - so they can bounce.

By doing this I can swap the units each turn and have a 'fresh' unit flying escort and the 'tired' unit flying CAP which will provide protection and rest the unit.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I recommend mixing your CV squadrons

Keep some "Elite" ones; these are CAP-only. Set them to Zero Range, 80% or 90% CAP. They won't tire very fast at Zero range, particularly if they are Elite, so don't worry about the high percentage

Set the less experienced squadrons to "ESCORT" with the range you need to escort. You can mix in some CAP on them, depending on what you need.

You can also mix the A/C types, if you have a mix. For example, it's 1944 and I am using Corsairs for the "Elite" units, and lesser units like CVE fighters use Hellcats or Wildcats. It doesn't matter much if escorts are Wildcats.

Basic point is that Escorting fighters are going to die regardless of plane type or pilot quality, so you may as well make sure the guys dying are not your best ones

I agree with Q-Ball in theory, but figure out how to develop such elite squadrons first. Until you do that I would recommend:

If Allied, when not in contact with the enemy or expecting it, set CAP to 30% and 20% training. Range max.

If not Allied your squadrons better be ready to go when they are assigned to a carrier. CAP 30% unless expecting contact with enemy carriers or substantial land based attack squadrons. Range max.

Naturally take training down to 0% when expecting contact or battle. Always have the fighters set to the same max range as the bombers. That's their number one gig along with protecting the carriers. Your attacks are unlikely to be successful without escort. Furthermore, why expose any CV to destruction if it is not capable of delivering a lethal attack?

Lastly, and in reference to the "elite CAP squadron" there is the problem of what happens if the host CV takes a lot of damage? I like the idea, but I think the odds favor spreading the responsibility over all squadrons.

I think spreading out your 80+ fighter pilots is probably the best unless you have elite fighters for them to fly.

Now (I know I said lastly earlier, but I just can't help myself) what % to set CAP to when battle is imminent is a question I can't answer. Your instincts are required here as well as knowledge of the particulars. CAP at 100% is sometimes tempting, but I've never done that and don't think I ever will. We'll see.

Now, for the rest of your carrier operations;

Allied: Depending on the size of your force and how many search planes are already in play the percentages are as follows: With the instruction that you should never depend entirely on float plane searches as these will not occur in heavy seas. DBs 20% search at 10k feet unless you have more than two squadrons involved in which case you may drop it to 10%.

TBs 10-20% ASW unless carrier battle is expected, in which case 0%. Of course training for the crews should follow this plan.

Japanese Imperial Forces:

DBs 10% search 10% ASW no training. If battle imminent, drop ASW.

TBs 10% search 10% ASW no training. If battle imminent, drop ASW.

By no training I mean on board carrier. Crews should be trained in search and ASW (with ASW of secondary priority) prior to assignment to a CV.

[geofflambert]

I'll be more forthcoming: I don't believe I've ever set a squadron to greater than 50% CAP. It's doctrine for me, but you should consider that in situations where there may be multiple waves of attack (either a.m. or p.m.) commiting more than that seems to me extremely hazardous.