OT - What a horrible daughter

[Schanilec]

Exactly +1

[mike scholl 1]

All boils down to one simple statement. "Where there's a Will, there's a bunch of greedy relatives". [:)]

[Numdydar]

I am just eternally grateful I am an only child [:D]

Of course my mom and my two uncles, ripped each appart when my grandfather tries to setlle things in advance. I felt so sorry for him trying to do the right thing at 80+ years old. This why my wife and I have updated wills and review them one a year or so just to make sure they still reflect our final wishes. Especially since we have three children each from previous marragies.

The really fun conversation is what happens if we die at the same time [X(]. We actually have a clause that states in case of a tie [:)] which one of us dies first lol. Needless to say these are NOT fun converstations which is why so many people refuse to do this. Even those that know better.

One of my uncles told everyone he had a will and was leaving everything to his brother (this was after my mom died), yet after his passing, no will. My other uncle and aunt tore up his house looking for one. So it ended up in probrate and I got half of the estate. Pretty nice until my ex got it [:(]

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58




I'm not sure I follow your post. Perhaps you mis-worded something. By using "current wife" and "widow" it makes me think there were two, and the widow was the first wife?

Regardless, if you were the executor you needed to execute the will as written and the probate court should have overseen that. If you used your office to exert leverage on sibs to do something intentionally not there in the will you were executing any of your sibs would have had a cause of action against you in probate court. IMO of course. I am not a lawyer.

We have just gone through a detailed round of estate planning here in Frostbite Falls. If done properly by a qualified estate attorney there is no need to face probate. Trust structures exist to avoid it and are not "only for rich people" any more. And the dangers of powers of attorney are well illustrated by this case and thousands of others. There is rarely a good reason to use one in elder care, certainly one with unlimited authority. In elder care situations court supervised guardianships and conservatorships are options. A family member can still fill the role, but they know the henhouse is being watched by Farmer Jones and not the fox.

current wife = widow. I used the different names to indicate the time in which actions took place. Everything in the will was done per the will, exactly as written. Everything else was done afterwards. Nothing within probate.

Sure, if you can find a lawyer that you trust, they can make good executors. A monkey can be trained to probate a will. Trivial. Unfortunately, like real estate agents and everything else, the profession is riddled with scoundrels and thieves. They delay settlement, charge processing fees, yaddi yaddi yaddi. Down here in the desert, you see little news snippets every month of an estate attorney convicted for defrauding 1500 families of their estates. Its so easy for them, and it takes so long to catch them and then prove anything. Think about it, 2 extra hours of billable time at $500/hour * 1000 familes = $1,000,000 ... enough said.

Maybe everyone up in Frostbite Falls are upstanding and honest. Upper MidWest is weird that way. Rest of the world is populated by greedy people.

Me? Simple. The only thing I will leave will be advice. I intend to have consumed all of the Laphroaig in my cabinet before I'm gone. [:D]

Ok. I was and still am a little confused by what you said: he wanted the widow to share, but she wasn't in the will. That seems to be on him to fix, not you. But I will withdraw further comment as it's a matter where I have no facts.

I would never have a lawyer as an executor (up here, and in all Uniform Probate Code states--23 I think now?--they're called "personal representative", not executor/executrix), but many probates do need legal advice. Similarly, I would never have a lawyer as a trustee, but setting up a trust structure without one is a really dumb move. In most cases a family member can safely be a trustee so long as safeguards are built into the trust.

Probate courts are busy and the paperwork is immense. But they do exist to referee difficult family situations. It's a fascinating area of law. I don't know that the Upper Midwest is more ethical than anywhere else, but families up here tend to be huge, and family is very, very important in a region without as much in- and out-migration as the Sun Belt, for example. The fights over both family farms and family lake cabins can be epic.

Think fights over the Packer season tickets are bigger! [;)]

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Sometimes people mistake me for a nice guy. I'm not.

I was executor of Dad's estate, and he wanted each of us siblings and his current wife to share equally. His wife was not a US citizen at the time and they were not living in the US at the time.

Nice guy I am not; ethical and loyal I am. My Dad wanted it, and that is what he got. To the point that even though she was not in his will (intentionally), I had each sibling write a check after probate to the widow so that in the end everyone got exactly an even share. Fair.

The not nice guy part comes in with a couple of recalcitrant siblings. They did pay. Grudgingly, but they did pay. The good thing is that my siblings really do know I am not a nice guy and even they don't want to be on my bad side. [8D]

I would also add that my Dad named me executor because he knew all this beforehand.

My point being that people don't always choose executors for the right reason. You don't want a Labrador for your executor, you want the Doberman. Simple. Direct. Loyal. Follows commands. [:D]

It sounds like you bent over backwards to be fair and follow your father's wishes. In a sense you were being nice to your father. There are differing definitions of "nice". Someone who is a pushover who will bow to whoever whines the loudest is giving in to keep the peace, probably because they can't deal with the pressure. Ultimately they are acting in their own self interest/preservation, they are trying to avoid getting "beaten up" by the bully.

Keeping an eye to the larger picture goal is honorable and ultimately the act of someone who is a fair and honorable person. Which to my mind is a truly nice person. In the short term some people who didn't get what they wanted may not think so, but in the grand scheme of things I think it is the act of a nice person.

I probably would have done similar.

Bill

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

The really fun conversation is what happens if we die at the same time [X(]. We actually have a clause that states in case of a tie [:)] which one of us dies first lol. Needless to say these are NOT fun converstations which is why so many people refuse to do this. Even those that know better.

When we set up our trust, our attorney had a practical solution-the 'last screams heard' definition of who is the last survivor. In other words, unless everyone dies simultaneously (like on the same crashing plane), the date and time stamp of the death certificate would be the determinant. In the 'last screams heard' scenario, it's whomsoever gave evidence of their 'aliveness' or whose screams were last heard from the burning wreck on the highway. There are usually forensic ways of determining who predeceases whom. Grisly as all get out, but there you go.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Think fights over the Packer season tickets are bigger! [;)]

We here in Minnesota do not speak of this. Vikings season tickets can be had for six bucks and a broken trolling motor.

[catwhoorg]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Think fights over the Packer season tickets are bigger! [;)]

We here in Minnesota do not speak of this. Vikings season tickets can be had for six bucks and a broken trolling motor.

I'd want more than six bucks to take a Vikings ticket off your hands.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

The really fun conversation is what happens if we die at the same time [X(]. We actually have a clause that states in case of a tie [:)] which one of us dies first lol. Needless to say these are NOT fun converstations which is why so many people refuse to do this. Even those that know better.

It's a pretty standard clause in every will that simultaneous death is addressed, especially between spouses who inherit from each other. Legal documents have to "close the door" on every single branch of the decision and outcome tree and leave only one route open. A car crash? The EMTs might give testimony that my wife blinked three seconds after I stopped blinking. Was it voluntary? Not necessarily. How about a plane crash? No witnesses. Does it matter if I'm in seat 11A and she is in 23B, and the plane didn't back into the mountain?

Many wills will insert a legal presumption that in such cases it is presumed that Party A lived 24 hours longer than Party B regardless of other facts. In many states, however, the Uniform Simultaneous Death Act is in force, which calls for 120 hours, with some exceptions. There are other ways to go, but it needs to be handled.

Edit: FWIW, this is from a sample will on Findlaw.com. As an example only! With commentary.

"If my spouse and I shall die under such circumstances that the order of our deaths cannot be readily ascertained, my spouse shall be deemed to have predeceased me. No person, other than my spouse, shall be deemed to have survived me if such person dies within 30 days after my death. This article modifies all provisions of this will accordingly.

This clause helps avoid the sometimes time-consuming problems that occur if you and your spouse die together in an accident. Your spouse's will should contain an identical clause; even though it seems contradictory to have two wills each directing that the other spouse died first, since each will is probated by itself, this allows the estate plan set up in each will to go forward as you planned. The second sentence exists to prevent the awkward legal complications that can ensue if someone dies between the time you die and the time the estate is divided up. Instead of passing through two probate processes, your gift to a beneficiary who dies shortly after you do would go to whomever you would have wanted it to go had the intended beneficiary died before you did. Most such gifts go into the residuary estate."

http://estate.findlaw.com/wills/sample- ... tated.html

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Think fights over the Packer season tickets are bigger! [;)]

We here in Minnesota do not speak of this. Vikings season tickets can be had for six bucks and a broken trolling motor.

I'd want more than six bucks to take a Vikings ticket off your hands.

Yeah, there is the matter of paying for game day parking. And the liquor bill for today's Vikes fan is non-trivial.

This week . . . London! O frabjous day! [:'(]

[catwhoorg]

The standard in the UK is in case of simultaneous death, the older person died first unless there is conclusive evidence to the contrary.

30 day survivor clauses are commonly added to wills.

[denisonh]

Mammon is a cruel master

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

The standard in the UK is in case of simultaneous death, the older person died first unless there is conclusive evidence to the contrary.

30 day survivor clauses are commonly added to wills.

Huh. I think I like ours better.

The common law was very different than modern simultaneous statutes. Maybe the UK is still more on the common law line of thinking.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I probably would have done similar.

Bill

Thanks Bill. Appreciate this.

[catwhoorg]

Moose,

I don't think there is any way that is better. Consistency is the key in such circumstances.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have a law degree as well. I don't have a practice, but if people ask me for legal advice in terms of estate planning, then I do advise them. The quickest way to destroy a family is to die and not leave a will in place. My recommendation would be to leave a will to your estate in the hands of a third party, like an attorney, financial planner or mediator. Don't leave it in the hands of a blood relative.

That is good advice. My parents did that and I thought it was kind crazy, since I was the first male born and all. Then came the inevitable and thank goodness there was a third party dealing with the siblings. Estates do bring the worst out in people.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

A few years ago I read a book about borderline personality disorders (BPD) and how they affect people. The author was an engineering professor but was inspired to write the book from her experiences with her own sister who had BPD. She said at the end of the book when she tells people about BPD, she gets one of two reactions. Either, "that can't be, nobody is like that!" or "let me tell you my story..."

"Let me tell you my story". She is so right about that. My ex-MIL sued her own daughter - twice. The second time it was in order to steal her daughter's house away from her. I'll spare you the details, but anyone who's dealt with BPD's knows just how nasty and deceitful they can be. The average person isn't prepared for that level of evil, especially coming from your own mother.

[moore4807]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I have a law degree as well. I don't have a practice, but if people ask me for legal advice in terms of estate planning, then I do advise them. The quickest way to destroy a family is to die and not leave a will in place. My recommendation would be to leave a will to your estate in the hands of a third party, like an attorney, financial planner or mediator. Don't leave it in the hands of a blood relative.

That is good advice. My parents did that and I thought it was kind crazy, since I was the first male born and all. Then came the inevitable and thank goodness there was a third party dealing with the siblings. Estates do bring the worst out in people.

Our family is going through that now - There is so far three attorneys involved with parts of the will and how the executor handled the disbursements. Nobody is talking to each other and the lawyers are going to be the only ones walking away with the money. I tried telling my stepson that but he replied that the lawsuits were "only taking food out his kids mouths" Yet driving by his house there is a brand new Super Duty Pickup and a full size Camper trailer parked in his driveway... its not going to end well...
I think I can name my D-I-L as good competition for the original poster, and told my wife its better to find this out now than before we named anybody to take care of us in our later years!!!

[TSCofield]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Sometimes people mistake me for a nice guy. I'm not.

I was executor of Dad's estate, and he wanted each of us siblings and his current wife to share equally. His wife was not a US citizen at the time and they were not living in the US at the time.

Nice guy I am not; ethical and loyal I am. My Dad wanted it, and that is what he got. To the point that even though she was not in his will (intentionally), I had each sibling write a check after probate to the widow so that in the end everyone got exactly an even share. Fair.

The not nice guy part comes in with a couple of recalcitrant siblings. They did pay. Grudgingly, but they did pay. The good thing is that my siblings really do know I am not a nice guy and even they don't want to be on my bad side. [8D]

I would also add that my Dad named me executor because he knew all this beforehand.

My point being that people don't always choose executors for the right reason. You don't want a Labrador for your executor, you want the Doberman. Simple. Direct. Loyal. Follows commands. [:D]

You might be using a definition of 'nice guy' that I disagree with. Being a nice person does not (in my lingo) mean unable to be as hard as you judge needed or appropriate, or letting people take advantage of you. That might be called a pushover.

You seem like a nice guy around these parts. [8D]

BTW, can I borrow $5? What's the vig? [:D]

I agree. PaxMondo, you are a nice guy. You just aren't a patsy or a pansy. You listened to your father, followed his wishes and did what was right no matter what others said.

You are a good son.