Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[JocMeister]

Well, not too surprisingly Erik is no longer interested in removing the HR per the earlier agreement. I think he is making a mistake here and is blinded by the Frank "R" sweeps he has done lately. But he has failed to look at WHY he was doing well. Sweeping at a LRCAP flying from 4-8 hexes away, 20.000 feet under the sweep in a hex that lack radar will win the day for you. He would have gotten the same results sweeping from 25k as 38k.

Going by our email correspondence he clearly feels this HR is now a big advantage for him. I think he is wrong as he will be fighting defensively and getting his CAP up high would have helped him.

I think its a shame as we are missing out on seeing a lot of models true potential and I think we would have had a more enjoyable air war. But I can´t force him. Its just a shame he is missing the point and is blinded by the results of just a few sweeps against a scattered LRCAP. I should have put off asking him until after he had come up against a more organised defense and he would have realised this is not the wonder weapon he believes it is.

[Bullwinkle58]

The only thing worse than HRs are HRs that change in mid-, or late-game.

IMO.

Let him sweep. You have ground to capture.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The only thing worse than HRs are HRs that change in mid-, or late-game.

IMO.

Let him sweep. You have ground to capture.

Its not a big deal for me. I don´t even think its to his advantage. But the discussion yesterday reminded me that we actually had agreed to remove it once he got a plane with access to the top MVR. I dislike the HR and so does he so I asked. But now he believes its a wonder weapon and its the height advantage that has been getting the P47 all those nice KDRs. Its no biggie for me and I told him so. If he wants to keep it I can´t force him to agree to removing it.

This can´t be the reason my P47s have been doing great now can it? [;)] And they all look like this squadron. [:'(]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]10th December -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

A reasonable quiet turn.

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Luzon
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Erik lash out trying to nail some leaky LRCAP but instead hit a brick wall at Antimoan. Three sweeps hit the base. Strangely enough the radar doesn´t seem to help with the detection. This is not the first time I have seen this. I know I mentioned before I´m wondering if something regarding radar detection has broken?

Morning Air attack on Atimonan , at 80,79

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes [&:] Between 5 and 10 minutes on all sweep despite radar. Anyone else getting this?

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 67
F6F-5 Hellcat x 94

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 31000 feet

During the day 70 Franks are shot down for 3 Hellcats and 2 Corsairs. A bit worried about the radar. As I said I remember I have wondered about this before but I forgot about it and havn´t checked on it. Its one of the biggest allied advantages and if its not working...ouchi.

Anyway. Tomorrow Erik will throw every available Frank "R" squadrons against Antimoan. So this is a good opportunity to test some things. I mainly want to see how the P51D is doing on CAP. I put 4 squadrons at Antimoan. 3 with so-so pilots and one with excellent ones. They are at 31k and under them are 50 Spit VII at 20k. My plan was to see if the P51 can climb above the sweep but I guess if radar isn´t working and a 6 minute warning that won´t happen.

I also had a ASW TF stray all the way up to Manila and hit a minefield? No clue how that happened! No react message or anything? Very odd. All 4 DDs hit a mine and 1 in sinking condition.

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Thailand
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Starting to get some really good results on the ground bombardment of the superstack.

Ground combat at 55,59 (near Tavoy)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 136001 troops, 2171 guns, 1191 vehicles, Assault Value = 4742

Defending force 190492 troops, 2294 guns, 3001 vehicles, Assault Value = 5625

Japanese ground losses:
524 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

I´m starting to realise I should have played this a lot differently. I missed a golden opportunity to really seal off his stack. Ah well.

Other then that pretty much nothing happened.

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Marianas
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Big day tomorrow! I pushed the first 100 B29-25s into service a month earlier. Hopefully tonight Tokyo will burn! Its only 110 planes flying on extended range. So only 500 bombs. But hopefully the insane number of manpower in Tokyo will burn nicely anyway!

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Allied toys
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Yum! [:'(]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Radar question[/font]
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Hmm, I´ve been running a few tests. I´m completely unable to get a detection time above 7 minutes. Actually I get the same detection times using no radar at all. This when detecting incoming sweeps I should add. I have not tried this with bombers. I did try with fighters on AF attack and still extremely low detection times.

I have been using different kind of Japanese planes to sweep a allied base 2 hexes away. Best detection was 7 minutes. Probably ran this 50 times now.

Am I missing something here?

[jonreb31]

Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


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Allied toys
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Yum! [:'(]

I haven't done HI strat bombing in about 1.5 years real time; don't recall how Michaels' changes to Allied visibility of factory make-ups works now. Do these recons have the range from anywhere for you to accurately map out which city is making which fighter models?

[Speedysteve]

Yup. In the latest BETA I have a clear view with recon as to which plane models and engine models are produced where

[JocMeister]

I think indeed there might be a bug with radar and sweeps.

tm.asp?m=3431819&mpage=1&key=&#3431819

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: JonReb

Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

Are they plugged in?

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: JonReb
Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Are they plugged in?

Bloody comedians you two! [:D]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: JonReb

Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

Are they plugged in?

Into what?

[paullus99]

Obviously the Hamsters died......

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]11th December -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Only one turn today as Ida didn´t sleep as I wanted her to.

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Luzon
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The expected swarm of sweeps over Antimoan never materialized. Erik did sent in 4 DDs trying for my PTs. It failed for him and he traded a DD for 2 PTs. A good trade for me. Not sure why he chose to do this with only 10% moonlight. [:)]

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Lucena at 79,79, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Kagero
DD Hatsukaze
DD Maikaze
DD Amatsukaze, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
PT-474
PT-475
PT-476
PT-477
PT-478, heavy damage
PT-479
PT-480
PT-481
PT-482
PT-483
PT-484
PT-485

He also airdropped some mines. If it works the same thing for him as it does for me its only 1 mine per airplane so I´m not too worried about this. Going to place some AMs under a big CAP and see what comes flying! [:)]

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Thailand
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Erik has started doing heavy sweeps before the bombers now. Nothing I can do about that. I can´t afford the losses protecting them. But in the meantime our 4Es payed Udon Thani a visit though and obliterated the single unit there. Looks like Erik is more interested in sweeping than protecting his troops for now. I´ll try to fly in some flak to the base.

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Morning Air attack on 80th Garrison Battalion, at 61,59 (Udon Thani)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 10

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
427 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

The unit is wiped off the map during the bombings.

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DEI
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I did something INCREDIBLE stupid last turn. I sent in a TF to be in position for the next invasion. And I forgot to turn ON "Do not unload"

Amphibious Assault at 68,115

TF 79 troops unloading over beach at 68,115

Allied ground losses:
1435 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 232 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 240 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 68 (0 destroyed, 68 disabled)
Vehicles lost 69 (0 destroyed, 69 disabled)

11 troops of a AIF Inf Section 43 lost in surf during unload of 3rd Australian Div /6

So, so, so stupid! Arrrh!

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Strat bombing
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To end on a more happy note we paid Tokyo a visit last night! BURN BABY BURN! [:D] A decent result with 102 HI burned down in one night. Can´t complain about that.

Now the worrying part...Another 300 Fighters went "missing" this turn. So in total there is something like 400-600 fighters missing from the front line. I see 3 possible reasons.
-He is upgrading all his Franks to the "R" version.
-He has pulled some of them back to the HI fearing daylight raids.
-He is massing to strike somewhere.

I know Erik by now. Its definitely the last one. I think he is going to try and hit the Marianas nailing the B29s there. So, whatever B29s can fly will be flown out and replaced by some old DBs I can spare. I will try and keep exactly the same number of bombers. This way he won´t know if its the B29s or something else. This will add fatigue and possible OPS losses but its better to be safe then sorry. I will only be able to fly missions every 7 to 10 day anyway. Might as well have them repairing somewhere else.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Question on "kosherness"[/font]
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So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? I´m leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I don´t really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point won´t change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.

[aztez]

I say go for it. There no reason to hold back those bombers so start nailing his aircraft factories.

It will cost you bombers but the gains are far more substantial.

I did strategic bombing in both of the games that ended. No reason for anykind of restrictions on what you are targeting.

Good luck!

[witpqs]

Some things are (from time to time) 'broken' and get fixed in patches. And while all things in the game are abstractions, some are sufficiently different from RL that they bring up discussions involving HRs, 'over powered', and so on.

What you are bringing up falls into that second category, IMO. The only way to look at those things in the context of the whole. Sometimes people complain about Allied 4EB striking ground troops without recognizing the unrealistic effects of IJ 2EB striking ground troops. Other examples abound.

In this case you are contemplating the issue of striking factories that are producing unrealistic quantities of airplanes! Airplanes that might even have been produced early through accelerated R&D! Go ahead and smoke 'em! [8D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]Question on "kosherness"[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________
So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? I´m leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I don´t really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point won´t change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.

Gotta disagree with some of this.

First, anything you can bomb you can bomb IMO. Crap on this "overpowered" stuff. One-quarter of the Tokyo metroplex was destroyed in one night. The game doesn't come close to matching that.

On bombing specific industry. You can, but you need to do it in daylight to get anywhere and your losses will be high. Look at your screenie of Tokyo, how many aircraft factories there are. At extended range with only B-29s you won't get 80 points per raid gone or anything like that in my experience. If you were closer, like Sakhalin/Hokkaido, and could use B-17/B-24 hordes then yes, it would work. But your B-29 sortie rate does not add up against the calendar here. IMO nighttime Manpower is your best bet at this range with this few very finicky planes. Fatigue reduces faster than major damage repairs.

Did I mention you need to get CLOSER? [:)] Look at your plane queues after VE Day. Massive influx of non-B-29 4Es. They need someplace to work.

Finally, on HI. You DO care a whole lot about destroying HI. Not because he doesn't have a huge bank; he does. But because producing more is a major source of his Home Island supply pile he needs to defend himself. And to build Arms and Vehicle points he'll need to hold the mainland once you get the Chinese supplied and the Soviets wake up.

Look at your Tokyo raid. 102 HI centers gone in one night. He won't repair. Over the next year that's a pantload of supply he won't have. Multiply that.

You can't control what burns. Some will be industry you don't care about, like engines used on float fighters or something. But a lot will be LI and HI and that's his groceries. Local groceries that don't have to be moved by sea.

I'd stay night/manpower. And get closer. It's worth a LOT of LCU casualties to get 1000 VP per night, night after night.

[Uncivil Engineer]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]Question on "kosherness"[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________
So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? I´m leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I don´t really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point won´t change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.

World War II was "total war" - the only thing "off the table" was chemical weapons. Both sides had them and the Germans knew that if they used them, the Allies would also. All the leaders, on both sides, remembered WWI.

If I'm not mistaken, bombing of Japan was relatively ineffective until LeMay switched to incendiary bombs and burned down the wooden Japanese cities in firestorms. Then we nuked them cause they wouldn't quit. And you're worried whether targeting specific sites is "kosher"? If you had a nuke right now would you use it? Of course you would.

Bombs away!

[aztez]

Oh.. and Bullwinkle is absolutely correct when sayin get closer.

You will get tons of 4E bombers when/if deployed into frontlines can cause total destruction.

I did not accomplish that goal in my games and had way too many bomber crews drinking vodka on somewhere in the southern pacific.

When you go againts those aircraft/engine factories you need to do it daytime tp get better results.

It will be costly affair until get fighter cover for sweeps.

The closest I came was to grab Iwo Jima and surrounding bases. Those were good bases for P51's but the closer you get the better it will be.

I think I lost over 1000 B29's but those losses were all worth it.