Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... When/if Chungking falls the Chinese won't rebuild, however...

Who dem sez dat. Aint git zombies if no Chungking but you git 350 fried rice a month to feed dem. Dem no need starve and turn to zombies.

Alfred

My understanding has always been that if Chungking falls, Chinese LCUs world-wide do not take replacements from the pools. They fight with what they have alone. Is this incorrect? If it is I have been making decisions on timing and other things in a grossly hurtful manner.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: desicat

I just love well thought out strategic discussions.

I do too. I will leave reading and digesting this until the morrow when I can see straight. I did send back a turn already where I made a decision, but it is not irretrievable.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

... When/if Chungking falls the Chinese won't rebuild, however...

Who dem sez dat. Aint git zombies if no Chungking but you git 350 fried rice a month to feed dem. Dem no need starve and turn to zombies.

Alfred

My understanding has always been that if Chungking falls, Chinese LCUs world-wide do not take replacements from the pools. They fight with what they have alone. Is this incorrect? If it is I have been making decisions on timing and other things in a grossly hurtful manner.

Ahem ... can't fully speak from personal experience, not having lost Chungking ...

Section 16.4.2 of the manual only refers to Chinese units that are totally destroyed. One needs to remember two facts about that rule.

(a) it was instituted when a player could not resurrect any destroyed LCU. That feature was only introduced into the game in the last 2-3 years.

(b) it also applied when the monthly Chinese infantry replacement rate was only 200. Hence why the resurrected units came back without dipping into the pools for that initial 1/3 TOE. In one of the early official patches that monthly rate was upped to 350.

In both instances, as made clear by the manual, the resurrection rule existed to give effect to the practically limitless manpower available to Chian Kai-chek.

Accessing the replacement pools is not dependent on controlling the national home base. There are other malus which apply if you don't, but not accessing the pools is not one of them.

On a slightly off topic, have you considered putting some of your units into reserve mode to protect them from the constant enemy attacks. Especially if you set the unit to accept replacements.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

I got the movie back for the turn made in the interim, before Alfred's post. I also have the next turn after that which I have not entered yet, but can screenshot from. I'm going to AAR the movie, then post a bunch of screen shots to provide data, then discuss these very helpful posts.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

August 8, 1942

Interim Experiments; Wry Emoticon

A turn sent back before the discussion above, led by Alfred's usual complete and incisive analysis. The focus was on Rangoon/Pegu as I struggle to find a solution to this chess match. In the turn I had: 1) ordered five prime Chinese infantry LCUs to move from Pegu to Rangoon. I changed their prep to the capital as well, 2) ordered all available 4Es in the region to conduct night Manpower attacks on Rangoon to try to burn down some LI (limited in number that the 4Es are), and 3) The Rangoon stack to bombard the base to probe LCUs names as well as cause disruption and destroy any supply possible.

I believe it was the last move which caused Mike, a former artilleryman, to insert the grinning emoticon in the email.

1) Night strikes on Rangoon LI are mixed.

NIGHT AIR OPERATIONS PHASE
AIR NIGHT STRIKES
3 x No.11 Sqn RAF Blenheim IV stray due to night
3 x No.215 Sqn RAF Wellington Ic stray due to night
3 x 41st BG/46th BS B-17E Fortress stray due to night


This was about half of the force assigned. The rest did some damage.

Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 3

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim IV: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 5
Fires 1450


Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 3

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 1 damaged
Wellington Ic: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 8
Fires 5800


Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged

2) While the Chinese moved on Rangoon the bombardment went very badly. The LCU read was accomplished, but the Allied losses were terrible.

Ground combat at Rangoon (54,53)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 84616 troops, 932 guns, 939 vehicles, Assault Value = 3204

Defending force 96403 troops, 1208 guns, 1884 vehicles, Assault Value = 2877

Allied ground losses:
404 casualties reported
Squads: 55 destroyed, 56 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 8 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 31 (20 destroyed, 11 disabled)
Vehicles lost 29 (22 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Assaulting units:
150th RAC Regiment
45th Recce Regiment
54th Chinese Corps
14th British Brigade
20th Indian Division
75th Indian Brigade
23rd Indian Division
23rd British Brigade
26th Indian Division
7th Australian Division
24th Chinese Corps
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
16th British Brigade
16th Light Cavalry Regiment
7th Indian Division
60th Chinese Corps
95th Chinese Corps
107th RAF Base Force
AHQ Bengal
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
112th Infantry Regiment
27th Electric Engineer Regiment
21st Division
Imperial Guards Division
Guards Tank Division
5th Amphibious Brigade
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
6th Tank Regiment
17th Indpt Guards Regiment
4th Division
3rd RTA Division
7th RTA Division
2nd RTA Division
4th RTA Division
II./143rd Infantry Battalion
22nd Recon Regiment
I./143rd Infantry Battalion
14th Tank Regiment
3rd Militia Regiment
55th Mountain Gun Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
7th JAAF Base Force
4th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
26th Air Flotilla
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Army
28th Field AA Machinecannon Company
56th Const Co
40th Field AA Battalion
47th Road Const Co
4th RF Gun Battalion
30th Fld AA Gun Co
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
23rd Field AA Machinecannon Company
91st JAAF AF Bn
46th Road Const Co
22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th JAAF AF Bn
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion
15th Army
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
55th Field AA Battalion
9th Field AF Construction Battalion
57th Field AA Battalion
29th JAAF AF Coy

3) Air strikes in the region follow the pattern. Ramree is swept and is being watched. There are nine attacks on Rangoon and Pegu stacks. Some are uncoordinated effects. There are five large strikes and then stragglers. It appears there are Zeros and Bettys at Rangoon bombing that base. My rough recon (it's not good) shows more bombers than that, so I assume some are on anti-naval. The large majority come from Moulmein, including all the Helens and Sallys, with strong escorts. Most of the troop losses today come from Moulmein strikes. One does look as if it might have come from Bangkok. None from Chiang Mai I can tell (it's a Level 4(4) in my most recent look.)

Alfred is correct. Moulmein must be put down if there is any hope in the battle. Doing that may still not be enough as the Rangoon stack has taken very heavy losses, and the supply situation is not great. I will detail that after this AAR entry.

4) Other than these attacks the map is pretty quiet. Eniwetok is swept, but all planes are back on Wake. Palembang gets very cursory bombing and is nearly back in the Fort-building business. Chungking as well on the bombing.

One interesting development: it looks as if Tsuyung may have been abandoned. I last saw only one LCU there and detailed one of my four RAF recon planes in the region to take a look. DL is very low, but I see nothing. My guess is the huge host outside Chungking is sourced at least in part from the Tsuyung stack. Not useful yet, but if I can get Rangoon it becomes very useful. In sum, I think evacuating China, seen as an easy "win" for Japan, has come with problems too as garrison reqs eat up a whole lot of men and require coastal supply to be drawn deep into the mountains.

5) As a data point, this is my current air transport set-up and achievements. Movement toward Palembang continues and I have no indication it is being noticed.

2 x PBY-5 Catalina transporting 1st KNIL Regiment to Oosthaven
2 x PBY-5 Catalina transporting Batavia Base Force to Palembang
3 x PBY-5 Catalina transporting 4th KNIL Landstorm Battalion to Oosthaven
2 x Do-24K-1 transporting Batavia Base Force to Palembang
3 x Do-24K-1 transporting 4th KNIL Landstorm Battalion to Oosthaven
2 x PBY-5 Catalina transporting 1st Regt Cavalerie to Palembang
3 x PBY-5 Catalina transporting 1st KNIL Regiment to Palembang
3 x PBY-5 Catalina transporting 102nd PA Infantry Division from Cagayan
5 x DC-2 transporting supplies to Chungking
9 x R4D-1 Skytrain transporting supplies to Baker Island
1 x DC-2 transporting supplies to Daly Waters
7 x DC-3 transporting supplies to Chungking
7 x C-33 transporting supplies to Chungking
6 x C-33 transporting supplies to Buna
7 x C-47 Skytrain transporting supplies to Chungking
17 x C-47 Skytrain transporting supplies to Chungking
14 x C-47 Skytrain transporting supplies to Chungking
10 x C-47 Skytrain transporting supplies to Chungking
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

I will now post a series of screen shots to show the situation in Burma. Tracker shots are from the turn load after the AAR entry above. The hexside shot is at the start of the August 9th turn.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

The map around Rangoon. Hexsides on.



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Supply state in Burma. Most is coming from Chittagong. One issue is that Bombay and Calcutta have been pull3ed dry by the incursions in Burma. I have a solid train of transport TFs coming from CT. the first two are unloading in Bombay now. The pipeline should fill up over the next ten days. But right now the Mandalay group is pulled very low, Lashio is lowish, and Toungoo cannot transship enough to support a lot of combat.

The two Chinese corps heading to occupy the hex north of Moulmein are very low on supply. One is at 60, the other a bit more.



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

The LCU status at Rangoon. Note the disruption levels and the supply levels. Ignore debris at top and bottom of screenshot. Red Chinese are not at Rangoon. That was the cursor.



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

LCU status at Pegu. This is with the Chinese corps detailed to march to Rangoon last turn. This will be canceled on this turn. I guess it was more than five. I had remembered five.

Also, two days ago, after the attack, more than half of these units were on Reserve. Disruption has screamed down in 48 hours. Possibly due to so many HQs, including the national one, Red Chinese.


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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

VP status and flow.



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

VP chart



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Air losses for day and total.



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Before addressing Bullwinkle's suggested options one should look at the overall purpose of fighting in Lower Burma and the present assets (both enemy and Allied) available to meet the preferred outcome.


1. At Rangoon deployed forces are:

Japanese 73k troops (unadjusted AV 3200)
Allied 90k troops (unadjusted AV 3200)

The Japanese have four category 1 divs + 4 category 3 divs (Thai) plus sundry infantry/tank small units that add up to about a single category 2 div. A lot of artillery and engineers are also present.

Allied units are mainly category 1 and 2 divs with only a few category 3 divs.


2. At Pegu deployed forces are:

Japanese 65k troops (unadjusted AV 2000)
Allied 159k troops (unadjusted AV 5550)

The Japanese have 5 category 1 divs.
Almost all of the Allied units are category 3 divs with little supporting units necessary to reduce a fortified position.


3. At Moulmein deployed forces are:

Japanese 24k troops (unadjusted AV 600).

A single category 1 div + a good infantry bde are deployed.


4. All up Japan has 10 category 1 divs, plus about the equivalent of 2-3 category 2 divs, plus 4 category 3 divs in Lower Burma. This means there is no local theatre reserve. No substantial land reinforcements will become available until Java or Chungking fall. By the time that occurs British Empire forces should be on the verge of upgrading to much higher firepower devices which will negate the arrival of "fresh" enemy units.


5. Japan has local air superiority. Three good airbases (Rangoon, Moulmein and Tavoy) provide interlocking air support for Japanese operations. Allied air infrastructure is less developed. There is also a shortage of Allied airframes.


6. Local Japanese naval assets, whilst still potent, are inferior to available Allied naval resources because most of the heavy units are occupied dealing with the situation way over in the Marshall Islands. However, combined with it's control of the air, the Allied naval superiority cannot be successfully brought to play.


7. Local supply sources are insufficient to maintain the large Japanese army (162k troops) and air force deployed to hold the line. It has been a while since I have seen map displaying hexside controls but I doubt that Japan is importing most of its supply from the Chiang Mai railhead. Much more likely is that supply, under the cover of it's air force, is being shipped in to Rangoon.


8. The basic Allied strategy since 8 Dec 1941 has been to bleed enemy fuel stocks dry by early 1943. Operation FUDD was a great strategic success because it ensured denial of the substantial Magwe oil and fuel assets to Japan. It was also a tactical success as evidenced by the fact that the current supply shipments to Rangoon are economically not profitable to Japan because there is no fuel to either replenish the ship bunkers locally or to ship back to the industrial centres on the return leg. There is a steady bleeding of the pre war Japanese fuel stockpile, compounded by not yet having the large Palembang and Java oil fields/refineries.


Bullwinkle has posited the following options:

(A) withdraw both investing forces at Rangoon and Pegu to the nearest Allied bases

(B) as either force at Rangoon and Pegu is currently inadequate to achieve it's objective, concentrate forces at Rangoon with a view to capturing that base

(C) remain in situ with an eye towards maintaining the logistics and airframe drain on Japan

(D) launch one attack and then retreat

(E) move most of the Pegu army to capture the Moulmein air field which is the key to enemy air operations

(F) move most of the Pegu army to capture the Chiang Mai railhead


Some of these options are consistent with the basic Allied strategy employed to date; some are not.

Option (D) is by far the worst. It is not consistent with the fundamental Allied strategy, will not achieve any tactical benefits and will just gut the Allied armies.

Option (A) removes the pressure on Japan. It is the second worst option whose only merit is if Bullwinkle is finding it impossible to feed his two advanced armies. Even then the retreat would have a faint ring of the retreat from Moscow as the enemy air force pounds the units both on the retreat and once they reach Bassein/Prome and Toungoo.

Option (B), which is Bullwinkle's preferred option, suffers from 3 key elements:

(i) the shifting of category 3 divs to Rangoon is unlikely to overcome the Japanese fortification and terrain benefits (plus any matching shifting from Pegu by Japan too)
(ii) time will be wasted as the reinforcing Chinese change their objective and it climbs towards the 100 mark
(iii) does nothing to neutralise the key Japanese asset which is holding the position together (viz the air force) or bring into play additional Allied assets (viz the navy)

Essentially this option is merely trying a bigger hammer to knockdown the front door. The odds for success are poor.

Option (C) is OK but does represent a lost opportunity. The Allied flak will continue to exact it's pound of flesh wherever the army is, be it at Pegu or en route to another destination.

Option (F) would be good if, if, if Rangoon is importing it's supplies from there. I don't think it is. Chiang Mai would still be a good move if it was part of a general move into Thailand, but that is not the case here whilst the key port for such an invasion, Rangoon, remains enemy controlled. Chiang Mai is therefore a side show. Which brings us to Option (E)...

Striking at Moulmein is good. The Tavoy airfield is not a sufficiently good airfield, both in terms of size and location, to fully compensate for the loss of Moulmein. Capture Moulmein and the short range Allied fighters can be brought into play to both confront the current enemy CAS and open up the possibility of deploying Allied naval assets to interdict supply or bombard the Rangoon located enemy air force/army. It opens a port to resupply the Allied army which can move on Tavoy whilst threatening an invasion of Thailand. It outflanks the main enemy forces and exposes the lack of an enemy theatre reserve.

Just don't rely solely on releasing units from the Pegu investment forces if you move on Moulmein. Thin out the Rangoon forces too which can take advantage of the terrain there to have fewer troops present than the enemy. Plus if you thin out the Pegu forces you encourage the enemy to attack the Chinese who are best used holding a defensive position.

Alfred

This is the kind of structured analysis I strive for, but don't achieve.

Alfred is quite correct that it is the air forces which are stopping the Allies from making progress. Although this effort is costing him hundreds of planes, much HI, and many pilots it is also costing me British and Indian devices which I can't replace. Overall though the battle is eating up calendar and stopping Japan from accessing the petroleum in Burma, which is the whole idea really.

My concern about Chiang Mai is mostly the RR being used to get LCUs north from Bangkok, not so much supply. However, I have only seen the LCUs which were already there move west to Moulmein. There may be more down south, but probably not much more given the size of the stacks at Rangoon/Pegu as well as Chungking.

Supply is not good, as shown in the Tracker screens. I hope to improve it in the next week to ten days. It's not low, but it's not at a level I can attack on many days in a row.

Moulmein will be next effort. That air field is the linchpin. I need to carefully allocate Chinese forces to move there while not making Pegu so weak the remainders there can be routed and retreated. Even if I get Moulmein I don't have fighters enough to bring the RN in close to stop supply convoys to Rangoon. Not yet. I can snipe at them from Port Blair as they pass, but not much else. Subs too of course. Colombo is a major sub base now, with a lot of USN fleet boats as well as Dutch/RN.

Per Alfred's point about moving some of the Rangoon stack to help at Moulmein, I will do that, but the Rangoon stack is brittle. I have some theater reserves heading there from Prome, but after that the cupboard is pretty bare. The Mandalay area is mostly being held by base forces.

If I could take Moulmein then the possibilities are much wider, as Alfred says. If he thins Rangoon at all I will pounce. The central Burma, northern Thailand bases are not defended. Bangkok reserves, if any, would probably have to be moved north. I need to be careful about the Indo-China border for four more months until the militia division activation rule fades. But there is plenty to do outside Indo-China.

To answer Alfred's other question in the follow-on post: I have used Reserve a fair bit in both stacks. So far as I know Reserve does not protect from air attack, which is what's killing me. It does seem to lower disruption quickly and protects from ground bombardment.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

The campaign to take Moulmein will be Operation MUTTLEY.




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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

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Muttley in action.



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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by catwhoorg »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The campaign to take Moulmein will be Operation MUTTLEY.


A Dastardly name indeed
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The campaign to take Moulmein will be Operation MUTTLEY.


A Dastardly name indeed

Yep, and one of the best laughs in show biz. [:'(]
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

August 9, 1942

Events In Motion

A get-ready turn. Will try to keep this short after this morning's mega-posts.

1) Ten bombers, half the night force, get lost. The others run into reported thunderstorms, odd as we're playing with weather OFF. Never seen that text line before. Put some on night Port attacks to try to get unloading TFs at Rangoon and Moulmein. No joy. FWIW, Rangoon has a night CAP of 20 Zeros. They disrupted the runs a good deal. Lost two to flak.

The only one that gets through and drops keeps the fires burning a bit.

Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9

Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 1
Fires 1151

2) The peeping on Ramree gets an I-boat visit. Two unloading xAKLs are sunk.

3) Standard air ops at Eniwetok, PBang, Chungking, Pegu, and Rangoon. Some Sallys working out of Rangoon, or maybe just mission-shifted. About 300 casualties. Several Hurris lost.

4) B-17s hit Truk. CAP is up to 40 Zeros. No damage. Four B-17s lost on way home. Several Zeros shot down. Rabaul is half way to Level 6, and the Air HQ the B-17s all belong to is passing Suva headed for Rabaul. Might help coordination.

5) Push on Soerbaja, which is rapidly being cleaned out of aircraft. Supply there down to 1200. Some repairing cruisers, the target of the strike. He got a hit, but it was costly.

Afternoon Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 14

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 12
Sea Hurricane Ib x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 3 destroyed, 8 damaged
G3M2 Nell: 2 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Afternoon Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 23
G4M1 Betty x 52

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 11
Sea Hurricane Ib x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 26 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar II: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Exeter, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Port hits 1

MUTTLEY is underway. Forces ordered to march to rally point north of Moulmein, across river, for Shock attack together.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by JocMeister »

Was Exeter hit before?
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