Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

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koniu
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by koniu »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Strategic bombing
------------------------ [/b]
The Nagoya strike turns out to be a complete debacle. Only 40 of the 110 B29s arrive over target. They only cause 2700 fires. 8 are lost to NFs. A 20% loss ratio. This can not be maintained for the miniscule gains.. [:(]

Whoever thinks NFs are underpowered needs to check again...

The Takao strike goes alot better creating 140k fires. But in the morning only 2 LI of the 40 is destroyed. [:(]

On the positive side I finally found the first NF factory! This will be a prime target. No idea how many there is though.

I think it is good. Not having ability to destroy entire city industry in one raid must be considered as realistic and well balanced. It will require lot longer campaign to burn everything to bare ground. Also NF working as they should. They are not so strong as day CAP and You can`t bomb for free. I should give for both of You and Erik feeling that this is fair to both sides. At lest for me it is.
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: koniu

I think it is good. Not having ability to destroy entire city industry in one raid must be considered as realistic and well balanced. It will require lot longer campaign to burn everything to bare ground. Also NF working as they should. They are not so strong as day CAP and You can`t bomb for free. I should give for both of You and Erik feeling that this is fair to both sides. At lest for me it is.

Yes I agree. Of course you shouldn´t be able to burn down an entire city on one night. My comment wasn´t meant as criticism towards the game.

But regarding the Nagoya strike I destroyed 11 LI and 7 Engine factories for 8 B29s. Not a exchange I´m willing to do. The Takao strike I didn´t lose any planes but despite 140k fires only 2 LI was burned down.

I can only strike with the B29s every 7-12 days so I have to make them count. Last night was a waste. I need to look at what went wrong.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]19th December -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________
------------------------
Strategic bombing
------------------------

The Nagoya strike turns out to be a complete debacle. Only 40 of the 110 B29s arrive over target. They only cause 2700 fires. 8 are lost to NFs. A 20% loss ratio. This can not be maintained for the miniscule gains.. [:(]

Whoever thinks NFs are underpowered needs to check again...

The Takao strike goes alot better creating 140k fires. But in the morning only 2 LI of the 40 is destroyed. [:(]

On the positive side I finally found the first NF factory! This will be a prime target. No idea how many there is though.

Be careful, J. I know this looks rough, but what if 110 had made the target? I think losses would have still been in the 8 range and you would shrug. NFs are what they are. He can't have them at every base. Mix it up, keep plowing ahead.

Also, using just B-29s from long range you're always goingt o be fragile. Keep focusing on getting closer. Even a medium-sized base. Then you can use P-51s for what they were designed for. And get the B-17s into the game.
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Be careful, J. I know this looks rough, but what if 110 had made the target? I think losses would have still been in the 8 range and you would shrug. NFs are what they are. He can't have them at every base. Mix it up, keep plowing ahead.

Also, using just B-29s from long range you're always goingt o be fragile. Keep focusing on getting closer. Even a medium-sized base. Then you can use P-51s for what they were designed for. And get the B-17s into the game.

I´ve clarified a bit what I meant in my reply to koniu! [:)]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Yes I agree. Of course you shouldn´t be able to burn down an entire city on one night. My comment wasn´t meant as criticism towards the game.

But regarding the Nagoya strike I destroyed 11 LI and 7 Engine factories for 8 B29s. Not a exchange I´m willing to do. The Takao strike I didn´t lose any planes but despite 140k fires only 2 LI was burned down.

I can only strike with the B29s every 7-12 days so I have to make them count. Last night was a waste. I need to look at what went wrong.
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

Some good info is to be found in the CR...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Nagoya , at 111,60

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 14
J1N1-Sa Irving x 23

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
J1N1-S Irving: 1 destroyed
J1N1-Sa Irving: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged

Manpower hits 4
Fires 2700

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
S-804 Hikotai with J1N1-Sa Irving (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
S-812 Hikotai with J1N1-Sa Irving (3 airborne, 9 on standby, 2 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 53 minutes
S-851 Hikotai with J1N1-S Irving (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

This confirms what I wrote in an earlier post. I need to change things up a bit. Now he can place his NFs spot on my B29s. I need to start changing the altitude around a bit. Going down will of course hit flak but it will generate better hits. And going up does the opposite. I´m too predictable right now.

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princep01
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by princep01 »

Joc, just an idea, but I would not go low with those B-29s.  You are manpower bombing.  All you have to do is hit the city.  As a result, I'd go high high most of the time.  Say 20K ft.  Tough for NFs at 10 feet to climb to intercept.  Okay, so some B-29 crews cannot even hit a city at night from 20K feet; so what?  Your attacks will suffer some "misses".  The relevant point is your planes will be all but immune to flak, the NFs will swing and miss until he sets them higher AND your crews will grow in expirence and survive as you slowly build up B-29 reserves.
 
Like Moose and others said.  Move things around and move your altitude up (most the time) and down.  Drop incendies, stir the ashes and see what burned to the ground.
 
Now, back to Jungleograd.  Why wouldn't you kill these yo-yos off?  Yeah, he can build some (a small some) of them back, but you're talking 12 + divisions and great piles of artillery in that cauldron.  The game is kind to the Japanese re political points and rebuilds, but not that kind.  Dump this lot in the trash can of history, grab the points, remove the threat of them breaking out and causing mischief and watch him rebuild 3 low grade divisions that you get to knock off again.  Besides, given his recent moves, he is likely to banzai attack again and again to finish them off himself.
 
And Bangkok.  Do you really think you need to seal it off?  Leave him an out for the 3 divisions and assorted stuff.  If you cover the rail, where's he going to go?  Into the ether of open terrain or jungle?  Great.  He's stuck out there for days while bombs rain down like monsoon.  Just interdict them to death at low cost and you get Bangkok for free (even if it isn't that important to you).  Think of all those grounded AC you get to kill for free when you take the base.  He can fly out most of the troops anyway the way you are planning on the seal off.  Get him in the open, grab him by the nose and kick him in the pants.
 
And, none of this should slow your blitz into Indochina.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: princep01

Now, back to Jungleograd.  Why wouldn't you kill these yo-yos off?  Yeah, he can build some (a small some) of them back, but you're talking 12 + divisions and great piles of artillery in that cauldron.  The game is kind to the Japanese re political points and rebuilds, but not that kind. 

Yep. He can get them back on the board, but twelve (?) divisions of rebuild is a lot of supply. Hope he uses it for that and not flying CAP. If you ever have to set foot on the HI you played this wrong.
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catwhoorg
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by catwhoorg »

Lot of supply, and a lot of VPs for their destruction.

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Speedysteve
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by Speedysteve »

At this stage of the war I'd also vote for destroying the blighters and gaining VP's for them whilst also freeing up your troops.

Sure Erik can re-build them but it will cost him in PP's, supply AND take a long time for them to be operational
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witpqs
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by witpqs »

If it hadn´t been a river crossing and I closed the hexsides using HQ units and whatever. No one would object?

Strictly to answer your question and not to belabor the point, my own comment had nothing to do with it being a river crossing.

It's really between you and your opponent. [8D]
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

Guys, I bow before the gathered wisdom. [&o] I´ll kill off the superstack. I´ll leave the arty in place and turn back some of the forces I started moving south. The 4Es need a few days rest and once they are ready I´ll get cracking.

Princep, I´ll do some sandboxing tonight and see how high alt bombing works over big manpower cities like Tokyo. Previously this hasn´t worked at all. But the sheer number of Manpower there might make it worthwhile. You do make a good point on Bangkok too. If he flees the city he will lose the aircover and I can send the 4Es in.

No turn from Erik tonight so I get some time to sandbox a bit. I did some quick trial runs trying to hit specific factories. Results where not encouraging. Looks like there is a very, very small chance to hit them. But once you hit they do go down fast.
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
If it hadn´t been a river crossing and I closed the hexsides using HQ units and whatever. No one would object?

Strictly to answer your question and not to belabor the point, my own comment had nothing to do with it being a river crossing.

It's really between you and your opponent. [8D]

In the situation where I closed the escape for his superstack moving a BDE to flip the hexside you wouldn´t have? If not. Why? A specific amount of AV to close the side? Or is it the "manipulating" of the hexsides you don´t like?

Not trying to start an argument or anything. I´m genuinely curious. [:)]

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witpqs
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
ORIGINAL: witpqs
If it hadn´t been a river crossing and I closed the hexsides using HQ units and whatever. No one would object?

Strictly to answer your question and not to belabor the point, my own comment had nothing to do with it being a river crossing.

It's really between you and your opponent. [8D]

In the situation where I closed the escape for his superstack moving a BDE to flip the hexside you wouldn´t have? If not. Why? A specific amount of AV to close the side? Or is it the "manipulating" of the hexsides you don´t like?

Not trying to start an argument or anything. I´m genuinely curious. [:)]

The only comment I made was in response to your mention of an EAB. I think it was Moose who posed the example of 100 AV BDE.

I suppose I would feel the same about an HQ as about an EAB. But the fact is that the game engine does not allow the detailed resolution to deal with combat at the scale of blocking movement between hexes. When I say that I mean, for example, a force of 5x divisions wants to move and a Bn is in the way. I say "in the way" in the sense that it is (in this example) the only unit that crossed that hex side. There is no way for the (or part of the) 5x divisions to attack through the Bn and move on. Of course, if the Bn is the only enemy in hex then it can be done. But if the Bn entered through the left hex side and 10x divisions entered through the right hex side, the Bn gets to be defended by the 10x division!

Now, that is just a limitation of the granularity - the level of detail - of the game engine. How players deal with that is strictly up to them. I have zero - and I mean zero - problem with whatever they decide in their game. If I were playing a game with Moose as 'no HR' (which is darn close to my own preference) I would be fine with doing that with an HQ (or EAB) and not feel the least ire if he did that. I would also feel free to do it. In other games against other opponents I would not do it.

My original comment was in the spirit of what I think I have come to understand about this game between you and your opponent, seeing the various complaints you've made to each other about this or that. I believe it is strictly between the two of you; there is no technically, ethically, or morally objective way that is best. The only ethical issue would be if a player was violating the trust of his/her opponent, which is a whole different thing of course.

BTW, there have been plenty of historical examples of small forces holding off larger forces either temporarily or until the larger force gave up and did something else. The stand of the 300 is the most famous example.
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

Thanks for the response. As I said I was curious on your personal view. [:)]

Incidentally Erik actually sent me a pretty long email today to clear the air a bit between us. There has been some tension going on lately and we have kept communication pretty short and to the point for the last month or so. Its hard to stay objective and not get upset at this stage of the game and I think we both have been very quick to jump to conclusions and see "exploits" and whatnot where there is none.
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aztez
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by aztez »

The PBEM is between yourself and your opponent. So, I wohn't comment on those things.

However you have very good advice here and take those into your heart.

You will suffer B29 losses even in higher alltitudes. Personally cut my losses and went in low mostly since despite the losses they are actually hitting something.

Once you get more of those B29's I would not bomb Manpower.. well maybe Tokyo and few other cities but would go for more specific targets instead.

Also get in the range so you can use your 4E bombers againts Japan. To recap "B29 will hurt him a lot eventually but it will be B17's B24's along with P51 that will utterly destroy his economy).

That is kind of blunt but really would say as much after completing two games.
House Stark
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by House Stark »

Joc, I wouldn't rush to kill off the superstack. It might be crippled, but I don't think it will die easily. Aren't units that are surrounded in defensive terrain sometimes quite hard to kill? I'm pretty sure I've seen AARs with Chinese units surrounded in forests that just refuse to die. Bombard away and gradually kill off those squads disabled in the attack, but I don't think you should move units back to kill the superstack until you've taken Thailand and Vietnam all the way to the coasts and linked up with your Philippines offensive. That way you will have your entire ground army at your disposal for whatever the objective is, be it the superstack, Luzon, China, Formosa, Malaya or whatever else.

Why not send the units that were freed up by the superstack's failed shock attack to siege Bangkok, allowing your better units to continue the advance. If you're entering the hex from Aluythia, he can't leave that way. If you don't suicide some EABs, then he has the option to leave the hex, but that might not be bad for you. (Also negates any charges of gameyness). If he leaves to the west, he has a decently long walk through bad roads to the nearest railhead. Then those troops will be out of the way, unless they choose to harass your lines, but if they enter clear terrain you can punish them for it. Maybe in mid 1945 you can get some shipping together and invade Malaya and finish off whatever is left there for VPs. If he leaves to the east then he has to cross into clear terrain, or the forest. If you put maybe 1000 AV in the forest to the East of Bangkok then he has to choose between shocking into that, or crossing into clear terrain and getting bombed by 4Es in the open while caught between your armies. And if he stays in Bangkok your second-rate troops can maintain the siege while you gradually chip away at it with bombardments and bombers.

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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Now, that is just a limitation of the granularity - the level of detail - of the game engine. How players deal with that is strictly up to them. I have zero - and I mean zero - problem with whatever they decide in their game. If I were playing a game with Moose as 'no HR' (which is darn close to my own preference) I would be fine with doing that with an HQ (or EAB) and not feel the least ire if he did that. I would also feel free to do it. In other games against other opponents I would not do it.

For those of us average (tm) at best in the land game, does the unit crossing have to have a non-zero AV for the hexside to close? Or is that a shock attack thing? Something else? I recall there is a rule about no-AV units, such as HQs.
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witpqs
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: witpqs

Now, that is just a limitation of the granularity - the level of detail - of the game engine. How players deal with that is strictly up to them. I have zero - and I mean zero - problem with whatever they decide in their game. If I were playing a game with Moose as 'no HR' (which is darn close to my own preference) I would be fine with doing that with an HQ (or EAB) and not feel the least ire if he did that. I would also feel free to do it. In other games against other opponents I would not do it.

For those of us average (tm) at best in the land game, does the unit crossing have to have a non-zero AV for the hexside to close? Or is that a shock attack thing? Something else? I recall there is a rule about no-AV units, such as HQs.
I think it does have to have non-zero AV. Support units vary in that, for example some base forces have 6 or 8 squads for guard duty.

An uncertainty on my part is that sometimes a unit that river crosses and shock attacks suffers an 'attack collapses' result and retreats to its original hex. I don't know what happens to hex side ownership in those cases.
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: House Stark

Joc, I wouldn't rush to kill off the superstack. It might be crippled, but I don't think it will die easily. Aren't units that are surrounded in defensive terrain sometimes quite hard to kill? I'm pretty sure I've seen AARs with Chinese units surrounded in forests that just refuse to die. Bombard away and gradually kill off those squads disabled in the attack, but I don't think you should move units back to kill the superstack until you've taken Thailand and Vietnam all the way to the coasts and linked up with your Philippines offensive. That way you will have your entire ground army at your disposal for whatever the objective is, be it the superstack, Luzon, China, Formosa, Malaya or whatever else.

Why not send the units that were freed up by the superstack's failed shock attack to siege Bangkok, allowing your better units to continue the advance. If you're entering the hex from Aluythia, he can't leave that way. If you don't suicide some EABs, then he has the option to leave the hex, but that might not be bad for you. (Also negates any charges of gameyness). If he leaves to the west, he has a decently long walk through bad roads to the nearest railhead. Then those troops will be out of the way, unless they choose to harass your lines, but if they enter clear terrain you can punish them for it. Maybe in mid 1945 you can get some shipping together and invade Malaya and finish off whatever is left there for VPs. If he leaves to the east then he has to cross into clear terrain, or the forest. If you put maybe 1000 AV in the forest to the East of Bangkok then he has to choose between shocking into that, or crossing into clear terrain and getting bombed by 4Es in the open while caught between your armies. And if he stays in Bangkok your second-rate troops can maintain the siege while you gradually chip away at it with bombardments and bombers.

We certainly think alike you and I! [:)]

This was actually precisely what I intended to do initially. I made some small adjustments to that. I´m still sending a lot of the forces down towards Bangkok but I will keep an Indian division to help reduce that stack. I´m also a bit worried about the actual reduction of the stack. He is in 3x terrain and its just a massive amount of troops. So I´m going to do a lot of softening up I think. Not going to jump right into deliberate attacks.

At least this will give the 4Es something to do while my fighter pools recover. Have to be careful so he doesn´t throw up a massive LRCAP from Bangkok though. 770 fighters there now. [X(]

I´ll try to throw up a map tomorrow showing a little bit more what I intend to do. [:)]
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Lokasenna
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RE: Battle for Bangkok begins!

Post by Lokasenna »

I have closed hex sides using things like AA units, which don't have any AV. I did not try it with river crossings though, because they'd get murdered in a forced shock (I assume).
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