Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Sorry. Maybe an American English idiom.

In the era, the Japanese national symbol found on the military flag (the red circle) was called a "meatball." I was saying, are these your planes or his? I get why some people like HRs even if I don't, but this endless, never-ending litigating in the middle of combat . . .

It's your game, as is always said in these cases. We're watching. And it's a very, very interesting game. But the stoppages of play to try to "fix" the unfixable are hard to watch.

That's all.

Heh, while I might never play a completely HR free game like you have I´m slowly, slowly getting there. I´m at the same point Encircled is right now. PPs for restricted units. Thats the only one I would really want in my next game.

PS. I don´t know idiom either. Had to look it up! [:D]

I have in the past volunteer taught English as a Second Language to immigrants. It's hilarious and has made me listen to my language a lot more closely. Every one has idioms. English has thousands. The one that got the most odd looks from my students was "It's raining cats and dogs."

Needless to say in WWII the US had millions of Italian heritaged servicemen in the military. Anything red and round? A meatball of course! [:)]

[Crackaces]

The one that got the most odd looks from my students was "It's raining cats and dogs."

Hmm that one should be perfectly understandable to those living in Oklahoma this tornado season .. [8D]

[Crackaces]

Havn´t gotten the turn back and I´m not sure I will. Honestly don´t know if will send it back even if I do. I´m fed up with the drama. I´m not enjoying the game and even less so after todays email conversation

I am sorry to hear this .. maybe of you both took a couple of days off and then started back up the emotional investment will cool down.

I know my feelings about home rules was shaped in a PBEM contest ... I was getting my butt kicked and then the IJ nonchalantly strolled IJA armor units in the open without air cover and with the full intent of sealing the deal in Burma... I hit them with 4E's smashing these units up horribly ..the problem was not moving units under the Allied air umbrella .. the problem was that the game is borked! [8|] Soon the calls for more rules that favored the IJ's perceived superiority .. [If I do not at least duplicate history . the game is borked!] Game ended soon thereafter ..

I think the air module totally depends on LRCAP interworkings as an abstraction of the Intercept model. How someone can explain this is an exploitation I am not sure [&:]

I would suspect many factors are playing into your opponents frustration that might get worse as time goes by. That might be something to discuss before proceeding. That is some CR die roll or Allied victory of some sort might tip the scales decidedly toward the Allies where the IJ will have to absorb the punishment like the Allies do the first 400 turns of this affair ....

[ny59giants]

I had to look up my newest game and what HRs I asked for. There are very few for air units. Some are restrictions for what Japanese air units can go on various carriers, having the big Allied 4e bombers going below 10k, and strategic bombing beginning on July 1st '43.

Having LRCAP for just about anything should go, IMO. Both sides just need to develop tactics to combat it.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

The one that got the most odd looks from my students was "It's raining cats and dogs."

Hmm that one should be perfectly understandable to those living in Oklahoma this tornado season .. [8D]

Cats, dogs, Fords, Chevys . . .

[JocMeister]

I´m not really sure what to make of this. I quite strongly feel I havn´t done anything wrong yet Erik is very upset. Our only agreement have been to try and avoid using LRCAP as intentional bomber escort instead of escort. I´ve done what I can to minimize this. Even went to great lengths to avoid it. But its a absolutely stupid agreement as LRCAP is one of the most unpredictable game mechanics there is. Its constantly failing to show up, straying beyond set target and even going beyond max range. Eriks "solution" to this was basically to tell me to stop using LRCAP/Sweep combos. Thats just silly. I can´t do that.

I did what I could to avoid the LRCAP but since the sweeps didn´t fly until the afternoon Erik CAP was up when the bombers arrived. He is arguing that having the LRCAP there made my losses much, much lighter then they should have been. I don´t know what he wants or is after. He still shot down probably something like 50 4Es and 80-100 P38s. Is that not enough? Thats one month worth losses in just a single day. He knows my pools are empty and that is a catastrophic loss for me. Yet he wants to shoot down more? I don´t get it. [:(]

Funny thing is that I still don´t know if it really was LRCAP over Manila. I think it might have been the CV CAP that strayed in over Manila but I don´t know for certain until I see the turn. If I see the turn...

I´ve had enough of these game breaks and interruptions because we "need to discuss" things. I never see this in other AARs besides mine and coinsidently Erik AAR vs Torsten. I don´t want to say too much here because Erik can´t respond. But I´m not going to spend more time on this game unless something drastically changes. In the last email I sent him I gave him the following 3 options to pick from.

-We shut up and play the game.
-We specify CRYSTAL CLEAR ABSOLUTE NO VIOLATIONs kind of HRs and then play the game and shut up about it after that. I would prefer an absolute MINIMUM of such HRs to lessen the risks of further "discussions"
-We drop the game and call it a day.

So I guess the game is on hold for now. Again. For the gazíllionth time.

I should add a bit of a disclaimer here though that this is obviously my version of events. Eriks version probably sounds a bit differently. I have still not recieved an answer on what "agreement I deliberately broke" despite asking 4 times now.

[paullus99]

He's upset about that? Seriously?

He has been killing your bombers left, right, center, sidewise & 6 ways from Sunday....he really needs to get a grip.

[Bullwinkle58]

Besides the state of the game, perhaps we all could pause a moment here and learn something. I usually call for Lobaron in these cases and sit quietly as the basics are explained to me. I just don't understand what your opponent thinks you did wrong.

I hate discussing the air models, but I will if anyone can clear this up.

Broken down to basics (I hope), I see three ways to get fighters from Own Base to Enemy Target: escort, sweep, or LRCAP.

1. Escort is a precise percentage ordered. All else equal all ordered should fly with bombers. There is no rotation, no "hot 5" planes on the ramp. If you say 30% and the range works, 30% flies, or tries to, weather, fatigue, leadership, etc. permitting.

2. Sweep. Same thing with percents, and the other factors. But, importantly, you can't control AM or PM. Nor can you control where in the phase the attacks execute in each day phase. Sweeps don't try to coordinate with bombers at all.

3. LRCAP. Percent ordered to range and destination ordered, range permitting. Do not coordinate with bombers. Should be present in both AM and PM, conditions permitting. Very high fatigue accumulation rate. Do not act as overt escorts for allied aircraft in same hex. Seek only to destroy enemy aircraft in same, or up to 2, hexes away, max range permitting.

Is that about right, at the base? If it is, he should be HAPPY you "wasted" planes on LRCAP. You could have sent 100% of your fighter inventory on Escort.

What am I missing after playing with 3-5 fighters per turn for over a year now?

[Crackaces]

CRSutton used to have a great saying as a sig line something like those that are losing complain the loudest ... I must admit in my current game I have been fussing to my opponent that India withdrawals continue despite India being in danger of complete overrun [8D] I just keep hammering his armor units that advance to take forward bases so the IJ can rail units in minimal time with 4E's and use my mostly disabled barely intact units to block his supply routes .. it all works out .. [;)] It is a game .. not a simulation ...

[JocMeister]

This is of course an interpretation of what I think Erik is against.

He is arguing that the LRCAP isn´t shackled by the negative modifiers escorts are. And that LRCAP presence in a hex gives protection to all those gazillion fragments the bombers break up into. His main beef seems to be that the LRCAP "teleports" back up to patrol height after every engagement and getting the "dive" on his CAP. Its a valid point but he is disregarding the fact that he still inflicted a massive loss on both my bombers, escorts AND the LRCAP.

My question right now is that he still shot down a months worth of production in on day and he thinks LRCAP is too powerful? I havn´t seen the turn so I´m estimating the losses based on the CR. They WILL be bad.

This is the first attack on Manila. Looks too powerful? He lost 5 planes... [8|]

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Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 72
J2M5 Jack x 36
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 49
Ki-84a Frank x 43
Ki-84r Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 50
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
B-24J Liberator x 210
P-38H Lightning x 22
P-38J Lightning x 53
P-38L Lightning x 46
F4U-1A Corsair x 12 <--Possible LRCAP
F4U-1D Corsair x 62 <--Possible LRCAP
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 40

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 3 damaged
J2M5 Jack: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 damaged


Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.VI: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged
Liberator B.VI: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24J Liberator: 4 destroyed, 10 damaged
P-38H Lightning: 5 destroyed
P-38J Lightning: 4 destroyed
P-38L Lightning: 6 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 7 damaged

[JocMeister]

2nd attack...

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Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 63
J2M5 Jack x 25
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 39
Ki-84a Frank x 36
Ki-84r Frank x 34

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 3
B-24D1 Liberator x 3
B-24J Liberator x 36
P-38L Lightning x 22
F4U-1A Corsair x 12 <-- Possible LRCAP
F4U-1D Corsair x 14 <-- Possible LRCAP
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.VI: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 3 destroyed, 16 damaged
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged

The situation is just tiresome. Those who have followed this AAR knows that there has been many disruptions during the last 6 months. Aerial mining, "suicide recon" (forgot to cancel the movement on a unit) and many more. Everything has to be discussed all the time. I just want to play the game. I told Erik so after the last "discussion" and we had a good flow of turns without any communication at all going for several weeks. Worked very well. I don´t want to spend my evenings writing emails back and forth. I want to play the damn game without all the drama. Obviously the drama is unavoidable when we "communicate" so why not just cut that out.

Aaargh.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I usually call for Lobaron in these cases and sit quietly as the basics are explained to me.

You don´t need to, you hit the nail. Actually you explained it better than I had.

I just don't understand what your opponent thinks you did wrong.

Me neither.

LRCAP comes with its own set of disadvantages. You are given a series of options and choose a mix of what is appropriate for the situation.

Also, as Jocmeister said, it might be CAP with range set > 0. CAP reaction at range is not easy to predict, and even more difficult to prevent in case squadron range settings are dictated by other factors. CAP reacts to a variety of events.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

This is of course an interpretation of what I think Erik is against.

He is arguing that the LRCAP isn´t shackled by the negative modifiers escorts are. And that LRCAP presence in a hex gives protection to all those gazillion fragments the bombers break up into. His main beef seems to be that the LRCAP "teleports" back up to patrol height after every engagement and getting the "dive" on his CAP. Its a valid point but he is disregarding the fact that he still inflicted a massive loss on both my bombers, escorts AND the LRCAP.

I guess I'm confused still. The air stuff always does that to me.

I looked in my archives for both my games. I don't have very many cases where I had CAP up, there was more than one attack on a base, and some of the CAP survived to meet the second attack. But in every case I found the CAP was at the patrol altitude--"teleported" in Erik's terms--when the second attack began. If the Oscars were assigned to 38,000 feet and my poor P40Es were at 15,000 that was the case at the start of both reports. As has been said many times the attack queue isn't really consecutive. It's reported that way in the animation, but it's not one run, then the next, then the next. Losses carry forward, but it's not as clean as it looks time-wise.

What negative modifiers do escorts get? I truly don't know. Learning opportunity for me. I think that they're tied to their strike package and don't loiter might be what he means, and that's true, but the fatigue accumulation for LRCAP is much higher than for Escort in the other direction. And 100% of the LRCAP percentage isn't there 100% of the time in both day phases. That's a disadvantage. I have always looked at LRCAP as a sometime thing. I'd rather do sweeps and not have them tied to bomber timing, or do pure escort and make the fighters ablative. LRCAP has always seemed the worst of both worlds in offense. In defense LRCAP can make sense, especially when dissimilar sized AFs are in the mix. But I watch the fatigue.

[paullus99]

You have got to be kidding me - he murdered you....and he's complaining? What the hell, man....that is ridiculous.

[Miller]

This all boils down to escorts being absolutely useless in the game, regardless of aircraft type and pilot exp. LRCAP is a decent work around imo. Both sides can use it, so he should live with it.

[Quixote]

Not sure whether to wish you good luck in resolving this, or good game after all the drama. It's been fun to follow for us either way, but maybe not so much fun lately for you to litigate. It is supposed to be a game, after all...

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I guess I'm confused still. The air stuff always does that to me.

I looked in my archives for both my games. I don't have very many cases where I had CAP up, there was more than one attack on a base, and some of the CAP survived to meet the second attack. But in every case I found the CAP was at the patrol altitude--"teleported" in Erik's terms--when the second attack began. If the Oscars were assigned to 38,000 feet and my poor P40Es were at 15,000 that was the case at the start of both reports. As has been said many times the attack queue isn't really consecutive. It's reported that way in the animation, but it's not one run, then the next, then the next. Losses carry forward, but it's not as clean as it looks time-wise.

What negative modifiers do escorts get? I truly don't know. Learning opportunity for me. I think that they're tied to their strike package and don't loiter might be what he means, and that's true, but the fatigue accumulation for LRCAP is much higher than for Escort in the other direction. And 100% of the LRCAP percentage isn't there 100% of the time in both day phases. That's a disadvantage. I have always looked at LRCAP as a sometime thing. I'd rather do sweeps and not have them tied to bomber timing, or do pure escort and make the fighters ablative. LRCAP has always seemed the worst of both worlds in offense. In defense LRCAP can make sense, especially when dissimilar sized AFs are in the mix. But I watch the fatigue.

Haha, you know what? I never thought about the teleporting CAP. Excellent observation! [:D]

To be honest I don´t know anything about the penalties given to escort besides the fact that its there. Having used escorts exclusively for almost two years now I can say that my experience mirrors that of Millers. Anything used for escort have a life expectancy of basically nil. My above Manila strikes are a good example. Whether or not the Corsairs are CAP from the CVs or LRCAP you can see in the first strike just how badly the P38s on escort were mauled compared to the Corsairs.

Besides having some sort of negative modifier attached to the mission itself you also have the height disadvantage. The CAP will dive on the escorts causing further losses.

I have played as you have using sweeps followed by escorted bombers. The worked very well in 43 and early 44 when the quality of allied fighters (P47s/Corsair) was so much better than Japanese Georges and Tojos. Now in late 44 and forward I´m facing a complete wall of basically thousands of Franks. At Saigon there were 900 fighters on CAP at most.

If you send a lone sweep (25 planes) against 900 fighters on a layered CAP you will get beat up. So at this point I started adding LRCAP to the sweeps and did remarkably better. The problems with this is our stupid "agreement" about not using LRCAP for pure escort. LRCAP is almost impossible to control as I said before. This one of the biggest reason I avoided using it. That and the insane fatigue. This time I used 200 planes on LRCAP above Manila but the sweeps (and possible the LRCAP) rained in. Thus the bombers took off in the AM phase before the sweeps had cleared the CAP. So now my bombers possibly got "LRCAP escort" and here we are...

Its not like I would have like this to go in before the bombers...[8|]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-51B Mustang x 49
P-51D Mustang x 124
F4U-1A Corsair x 11
F4U-1D Corsair x 72

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
24 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51B Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
24 x P-51B Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 15
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 25
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 25
P-51B Mustang x 48
P-51D Mustang x 75
F4U-1A Corsair x 11
F4U-1D Corsair x 30

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51B Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
23 x P-51B Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-51D Mustang sweeping at 32000 feet
25 x P-47D25 Thunderbolt sweeping at 32000 feet

EDIT: Looking at the above sweeps it actually enhances my belief that the possible LRCAP shown up over Manila is infact NOT LRCAP set for Manila at all. Looking at the number of the last bombrun that "LRCAP" is absolutely fatigued/shot down and is down to just a couple of planes. But in the first sweep there are 72 Corsair "1Ds" present. The only model set to LRCAP Manila directly was "1Ds".

I also came up with another possible source for the Manila "LRCAP". I have a big convoy unloading at Batangas 1 hex south of Manila. That TFs is LRCAPed from iloilo and consists of Lower EXP "1As" and "1Ds" doing CAP/LRCAP to gain EXP. Its very possible that LRCAP "strayed" into Manila.

This just further enhances the problem with having a HR/agreement that tries to limit LRCAP. You can NEVER tell for sure where the LRCAP comes from except looking at where the losses occurred after the turn. So I could just set a massive LRCAP over a nearby TF fully knowing it will stray to where I want it. Or I could simply set the the LRCAP to where I want it and then tell my opponent it must have strayed from somewhere. And he could never tell whether I was lying or not. Its just an impossible HR/Agreement. Simple as that.

[JocMeister]

No communication from Erik last night. I´m going to send him a last email now telling him that if I havn´t received a turn or communication on Sunday morning I´m going to declare the game as finished. Our email conversations last night led to absolutely nothing. I´m still not sure what the problem is. Erik keeps telling me I have "intentionally broken" our agreement. He keeps telling me we had an agreement not to use LRCAP instead of Escort. I have never denied that. In fact I have been very open about that.

This is not the first time we have this discussion. We had exactly the same discussion in Burma 2 years ago when the exact same thing happened. IE the bombers arrived before the sweeps/LRCAP and Eriks CAP was still in place. Just as now we had a furious discussion. The only thing gotten out of that discussion was that yes, LRCAP is hard to control. I havn´t used LRCAP much since I havn´t needed to. But now as the map shrinks and Erik sets up these "super airfields" with 500-900 fighters on CAP I´m not sure what he expects me to do? Of course I have to use LRCAP to aide the sweeps. And sometimes the bombers go in before the sweeps. I can´t control that. No one can!

I did what I could to minimize the effects of this. Foremost by setting ONLY escorts from Iloilo where the bombers took off from so incase the sweeps rained in so would the LRCAP. I had 400 Fighters on escorts which got absolutely KILLED by his CAP and he probably shoot down 50 4Es or more. And this is not good enough... ah well. I feel I have done nothing wrong and if the game ends now I can hold my head up high.

[LoBaron]

I posted this in obvert´s AAR:

(Percieved) LRCAP over bases on which strikes occur are unavoidable over the whole game. My personal take is that LRCAP as strike support is not overpowered, but each to his own. I would not agree to any houserule limiting LRCAP in such situations as it would pose more problems than it solves. For example transport plane interdiction and air attacks on the same base would be mutually exclusive.

That said I do believe that the situation between you and JockMeister on a personal level might deteriorate so easily because you both run much frequented AARs where Japan is doing better than average for scen 2, are exposed to hundreds of different opinions offered by people who only know part of a situation, and are both (no offense) relatively inexperienced wrt the finer aspects of how the game engine handles certain situations - now a bit less than at the start, but still. So you have difficulties to come to an agreement on whether your own personal conclusions and the - often contradicting - advice you get in both AARs should lead to specific HRs or other agreements with the opponent, and whether there are any intentional or unintentional violations of those agreements, and what caused them, which is fuelled by any public discussion. You both expose your personal conflict to the community which only results in more conflicting opinions and misunderstandings.

My advice for your game enjoyment would be to lower both your profile, play the game, if you got a conflict solve it between the two of you, and if there are questions where external advice could help, open up a thread together for open discussion. And keep the AARs professional minimize personal or emotional content and focus on facts of the conflict.

WitP AE is most fun if you empathize with, and respect and trust your opponent, and enjoy the journey together. My opponents have long developed into some of my best friends, I could never imagine having conflicts like that, even less in public. Bitching around is for below par relationships. A campaign is too long and too much of an investment to ruin it by unneccesary animosities.

[Speedysteve]

Hi Jocke,
&nbsp;
Won't get involved in terms of taking sides but sorry to see the game has come to this point (again). It's a massive shame, as you say, as we invest SOOOOO much time in the game AND the AAR's. I do hope you both find a resolution and play through to the end as you're so near......