Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[DOCUP]

I am also sorry for whats going on in this game. Its been very educational and fun to watch. I hope you 2 can avoid divorce court and keep playing with each other.[8|]

[Encircled]

If it does go to the divorce court, can I have the Enterprise?

[DOCUP]

I want the Midway.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Speedy

FWIW in my game with Apbarog we have a gentlemens agreement not to use silly altitude for planes. We're only upto June 42 so no corsairs but most air raids and planes fly between 6 and 15k with only a few raids at 20k from memory.

I'm not sure what a "silly" altitude is. The Corsair was one of the preeminent CAS airframes of the war. I have seen footage from the Korean War of one delivering napalm from less than 100 feet onto a rise.

And of course the P47 in the ETO was a monster. The true grandfather of the A-10 Warthog.

If AE truly modeled the Allies' advantages in CAS nobody would play Japan. The Strafe and Low Ground skill isn't even close to how it was.

If by "silly" you mean "not too high" that's a different issue. I skimmed Symon's thread on airplane data changes coming for DBB and I think those will be very popular.

By silly altitude I mean the stratospheric battles and raids that occur >20k

[Crackaces]

By silly altitude I mean the stratospheric battles and raids that occur >20k

Actually 20.000 foot pressure altitude is not that bad .. 25K is the FAA limit of a re-breather mask turbo charged aircraft have extra wear around 30K with early failure because of heat .. but around 41K feet flying an unpressured turbocharged recept aircraft gets very interesting I wrote about this before but after 44K in an unpressurized aircraft the bends becomes a reality . ..

Just because an aircraft theoretically has a service ceiling does not mean the aircraft and pilot can maintain and operate at that altitude ... theoretically a Mooney 252 can operate at 28,000 feet but I would not want to do so for very long ...[8D]

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

By silly altitude I mean the stratospheric battles and raids that occur >20k

Actually 20.000 foot pressure altitude is not that bad .. 25K is the FAA limit of a re-breather mask turbo charged aircraft have extra wear around 30K with early failure because of heat .. but around 41K feet flying an unpressured turbocharged recept aircraft gets very interesting I wrote about this before but after 44K in an unpressurized aircraft the bends becomes a reality . ..

Just because an aircraft theoretically has a service ceiling does not mean the aircraft and pilot can maintain and operate at that altitude ... theoretically a Mooney 252 can operate at 28,000 feet but I would not want to do so for very long ...[8D]

While 20kft may not be too bad, for a completely fit person doing very little physical work, its a far different situation to some poor sod whose meals are mouldy rice or WW1 issue bully beef, sleeps rough because of mosquitoes, humidity, fear and who trudges out to his aircraft which puts up with the same climatic conditions, the stresses of combat and is maintained by ground crew who have worse conditions than the pilots. Its a testament to the men involved that anything flew.

Maybe the test figures put together over Pax River, Farnborough etc need to be watered down.

Back to the current problem, why is it possible to LRCAP an enemy base?? I assumed LRCAP was only possible over your own base, LCU or TF.

So in this case Joc should be able to LRCAP his LCU in Manila & TF's in Bataan & Clark. What the engine does beyond that is not within anyones control. (I would raise eyebrows if say Lingayen was LRCAP'd and also the target of a bombing raid.)

I suppose the option is to leave your LCU & TF without air cover (and you are not going to put CV in those areas) and trust that your kind opponent will not attack them, stupid on both accounts. The game engine is at fault, there should be no leakage away from the specified CAP target, happened countless times where aircraft would be in the area and cover target A while target B got smashed. If you want coverage of a Base, a LCU and a TF in the same hex you have to set 3 seperate LRCAP/CAP, yes you make have to breakdown an air unit into flights, just like IRL.

Having played a bit of late war games and seeing a few AAR in late 44+ I see the game engine doesnt handle things as well. Plus tactics which for the JFB have minor help, can become a monster when the AFB and his 15 CV's come to visit, just like IRL.

Hopefully many of the comments made by the viewers of both AAR can be look at by michaelm or modders and continued tweaks made to tighten up the game.

[witpqs]

Back to the current problem, why is it possible to LRCAP an enemy base??

It's an interdiction patrol.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

If it does go to the divorce court, can I have the Enterprise?

I'll have two please. One for each of my PBEM games.

I have a perfect record of never having the Big-E finish the war.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Back to the current problem, why is it possible to LRCAP an enemy base??

It's an interdiction patrol.

I understand, more a patrol of the hex, but shouldn't this be how the sweep works rather than a planned CAP of a TF/LCU swanning off.

I know the game doesnt offer better,how could you ever manage a HR for this and banning LRCAP doesnt work either.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Back to the current problem, why is it possible to LRCAP an enemy base??

It's an interdiction patrol.

I understand, more a patrol of the hex, but shouldn't this be how the sweep works rather than a planned CAP of a TF/LCU swanning off.

I know the game doesnt offer better,how could you ever manage a HR for this and banning LRCAP doesnt work either.

I'm not sure a sweep would suffice. A sweep is going in to specifically oppose CAP. LRCAP - when done over an enemy base - would intend to catch non-fighter aircraft. Nabbing transports, opposing bombing raids (on own troops), etc.

Of course that all depends on how things are coded, that flowing from the designer's intent when specifying a mission called 'sweep', another mission called 'LRCAP', and so on.

[JocMeister]

So, I got the turn back. So the game is on again. This time with no nonsense Ironclad HRs and nothing else. I hope this was the last controversy in the game...

Losses were actually a little lighter than expected. But it looks like both Clark and Manila could be open again by tomorrow. So its going to be another heavy fighting day. I´ll try to get a proper update up.

Oh, the controversial LRCAP over Manila? Planes flying from Iloilo set to LRCAP the BBs + LRCAP from the CVs set to Lingyan to aid the sweep there that never flew. Very little will change tomorrow as almost everything set for Manila is intact except the escorts and the bombers.

[Speedysteve]

Hi Jocke,

Glad to hear its back on!

Just to be clear have you both agreed to disregard all of your HR's?

[Encircled]

Good news its back on!

No HR's from here on in?

Boooooooooooooooooooooooo! No reverse Mersing Gambit![;)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]21st January -45[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Two major events today.

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Operation Arise
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Some things worked as expected and some things didn´t. The BB bombardments worked absolute perfectly. Losses from mines were a fraction of expected with only a DD damaged enough to be out of combat.

Night Naval bombardment of Clark Field at 79,76

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
H8K2 Emily: 75 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 13 destroyed on ground
N1K2-J George: 57 damaged
N1K2-J George: 14 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 48 damaged
N1K1-J George: 6 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 22 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-84a Frank: 15 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 5 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 26 damaged
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 6 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Missouri
BB Wisconsin
BB New Jersey
BB Iowa

Japanese ground losses:
434 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 32 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 23 (13 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (6 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Airbase hits 34
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 50
Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Clark Field at 79,76

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 23 damaged
Ki-84a Frank: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 21 damaged
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 4 destroyed on ground
N1K2-J George: 78 damaged
N1K2-J George: 8 destroyed on ground
Ki-84r Frank: 19 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 3 destroyed on ground
H8K2 Emily: 52 damaged
H8K2 Emily: 6 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 28 damaged
N1K1-J George: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Richelieu
BB Massachusetts
BB Indiana
BB South Dakota

Japanese ground losses:
408 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 22 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 10 (9 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (2 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 27
Port hits 6
Port fuel hits 1
Port supply hits 1

Clark Field was closed by the bombardment which was lucky because the bombers set for Clark never took off. Nor did the sweeps set for Clark and Lingayen. After the day Clark is listed at 77 damage. I have no idea why the game displays airbase damage. Who the hell cares about that? So I don´t know how damaged the runway is. I decided to take a chance though and cancel all missions for Clark. Tomorrow all 1050 bombers will instead go for Manila and its level 9 AF.

The Manila strike went haywire though. The sweeps and LRCAP set for Manila didn´t show up in the AM phase. Looks like both Atimonan and Batangas was completely rained in. The bomber flew though. Luckily for me the CV LRCAP set for Lingyan and the LRCAP from Iloilo showed up over Manila. This obviously was a big help during the day and cushioned some of the worst losses.

Sadly the two CV Squadrons was pretty beat up during the day and I lost a tremendous amount of elite pilots. [:(] The two leading USN pilots are gone, both KIA with another 3 triple aces MIA presumed dead.

Tomorrow will be more of the same. I moved some of the sweepers to other bases in the hopes of at least some sweeps arriving before the bombers. I had to stand down some squadrons that was too beat up though. As I mentioned I switched everything set for Lingyan and Clark to Manila instead. I still have 1050 bombers ready for action. [:)]

The Iowas are already refueled and rearmed at Iloilo and will move back into position to hit Clark or Manila again in 2 turns. Same with the CA TF. The other 2 BB TFs will need one more day to refuel and rearm before being ready again. I sent loads of PTs and MSW TF straight into Manila this turn to clear as much of the crap Erik has there as possible. If tomorrow goes to hell I want Erik to be very aware more BB bombardments can hit the AFs the following day.

Tomorrow I expect the entire Japanese air force on Luzon. So I could be going up against 2000 fighters tomorrow. Not a prospect I look forward too...

Strangely enough it looks like Erik will throw every egg he has in the Luzon basket. Looks like he is pulling troops from Okinawa to Luzon. [X(] That is very welcome if thats really the case.

He has also reinforced Manila even further.

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Ground combat at Manila (79,77)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 6402 troops, 605 guns, 420 vehicles, Assault Value = 4320

Defending force 129726 troops, 1536 guns, 1218 vehicles, Assault Value = 3351

I´m not really sure what to make of it. I think I should be pleased? Once Manila falls both Formosa and Okinawa is wide open with only 100.000 men on Formosa and 25.000 on Okinawa [X(]

I´m holding back the Lingayen landing a bit longer. Erik still has 95.000 men stationed there. When Manila starts to go critical again (it will shortly ) he might pull troops from there.

Wonder if he got intel on my troops prepping for Lingayen? Erik usually seems to prefer to pile everything on at one place so this is kind of unusual for his MO.

------------------------
Strat bombing
------------------------
Strangely enough the action over Luzon wasn´t the biggest event. The B29s from the Marianas exceeded even the wildest expectation and achieved spectacular results over Tokyo!

This is the last strike of the night showing the fires raging!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain<--Finally!

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes [:'(]

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 5

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 3 damaged

Manpower hits 21
Fires 76140 [X(] [&o][&o][&o]

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

This is by FAR the most effective raid in the war. I think the highest damage so far is something like 20k fires. In the morning there are still 19000 fires burning! [&o]

1200 VPs are netted on this night alone. And if prior raids an indication the fires will burns for another 3-5 days.

And the best part...only 17 B29s lost! So "only" about half a months worth of replacement. With results like this its worth it though. [:)]

This is how the war will be won!

[JocMeister]

Hey guys,

Sorry, I realise my first post was a bit unclear. We kept a few HR that are set in stone and not open for any kind of "interpretations" or "discussions"

-PPs to be paid to change a restricted unit to an unrestricted command before marching across a border.
-No Allied Air or naval units in Russia are allowed, even if Russia is activated.
-No invasions or paradrops on hexes that doesn´t contain a dot or base.
-No Allied 4E naval bombing below 10,000ft (except for NAVY 4Es)
-No Port or AF night attacks.
-32k MAX altitude

I wanted to make sure they ones we had were crystal clear. The first 4 have been in the game from the start. The last 2 were added just to make it crystal clear what goes and what doesn´t go. None of these HR is change from what we do now and have been doing. I just wanted them put down in print.

Everything else goes. So no more discussions I hope! [:)]

EDIT: So no fire is directed at Erik I was the one that added the No night bombing HR of AFs/ports. I have over 1000 bombers at Iloilo. If I set all those to night attack Manina AF it would be closed in the morning and there is nothing in the world Erik could do to prevent that. I could just move the bombers around Luzon closing each airfield one at a time using this method. I feel its not really kosher.

And with the range of the B29s and laser port attacks...nah. I have only done port attacks by day and will continue to do so. So none of these HRs change anything really. Just want them there incase I get temped in the future....

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]VP situation[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

I´m getting obsessed with this lately! Crunched some numbers just now and if I calculated correctly I will hit AV Victory in mid September if the current pace holds. [:)]

[Speedysteve]

Thanks for the clarification Jocke.

Re: VP's a very good achievement IMO if you look at how the situation was 2 years ago!

[princep01]

Burn, baby, burn!&nbsp; What's this game?&nbsp; Toyko in Flames?
&nbsp;
While I make some tongue in creek&nbsp;sport of this event in the game, I am aware that people (a lot of people) suffered and died cruel deaths in Toyko, Hamburg, Dresden and many other German and Japanese cities.&nbsp; But, rather than blaming the Allies for winning the war, I blame the totalitarian leaders that brought the world this calamity.&nbsp; It is a very good thing that wargames do not come with olfactory options.&nbsp; "War is cruelty and you cannot refine it".&nbsp; Sherman&nbsp;

[witpqs]

Tongue in creek is fine if you are thirsty enough, but routinely you should boil the water first. Tech Tip: Allow the water to cool before consuming.

[princep01]

Heh, heh, I guess that could use an edit:)....but, no, I think I'll just leave everyone with the view that Texas creeks are so clean we regularly drink from them.&nbsp; Well, unless the bull happens to be nearby.&nbsp; Back to our regularly scheduled mayhem.