Tora^3 dennishe(J) vs Khyberbill (A) DBB-C with stacking limits

[dennishe]

I'm converting some more AVs. Now I'm only wondering where all the float planes will have to come from.
In the meantime Wake was captured. I never do this early and first led KB destroy the coastal guns. In this strategy the capture of Wake is easy and affordable...

Ground combat at Wake Island (136,98)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 1935 troops, 19 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 63

Defending force 1013 troops, 14 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2

Japanese adjusted assault: 126

Allied adjusted defense: 1

Japanese assault odds: 126 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Wake Island !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(-), disruption(-), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
184 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1205 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 111 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 33 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 18 (18 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 2

Assaulting units:
Maizuru 2nd SNLF

Defending units:
141st USN Stn Base Force
Wake (Det.) Defense Battalion

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Hate to be a spoiler but aircraft detecting subs at night without radar... it is what it is, but it is dubious if you ask me...

It works for both sides in game, and is part of the game.

+1

Hence the sentence - it is what it is. I'm not saying it is favouring one side or the other. It just kills the effectiveness of submarines even more...

[KenchiSulla]

Nice presentation Dennis, as always!

[topeverest]

Obvert,

I've played my share of allied games too. The better allied sub architects stay out of heavy concentrations of ASW aircraft and DD/E patrols or enter these zones in long linear perpendicular patrol zones that minimize detection level while staying in deep water. By concentrating a handful of subs one sub can be in the zone every five or so days, severely limiting the DL. Essentially, its an ebb and flow, where the empire can concentrate enough assets to close down pieces of the booty trail, and the allied player then re-concentrates forces where the empire cannot do the same. When empire, I find that allied players with sub acumen still gain substantial success. Of course, it is all about the tankers IMHO. Things like never taking the same path two trips in a row, using up to 4 DD's to protect dedicated tanker TF, and even using massed tanker approaches where possible. How many you need for how long is contextual within each game.

So I agree that you can close down certain high traffic zones like Taiwan, Hiroshima, etc. I also agree that if the allied player isn't adept, they will suffer heavy casualties for less success. The pertinent question is how you maximize protection outside these zone, and how many heavy patrol zones you can make?

What do you think?

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Obvert,

I've played my share of allied games too. The better allied sub architects stay out of heavy concentrations of ASW aircraft and DD/E patrols or enter these zones in long linear perpendicular patrol zones that minimize detection level while staying in deep water. By concentrating a handful of subs one sub can be in the zone every five or so days, severely limiting the DL. Essentially, its an ebb and flow, where the empire can concentrate enough assets to close down pieces of the booty trail, and the allied player then re-concentrates forces where the empire cannot do the same. When empire, I find that allied players with sub acumen still gain substantial success. Of course, it is all about the tankers IMHO. Things like never taking the same path two trips in a row, using up to 4 DD's to protect dedicated tanker TF, and even using massed tanker approaches where possible. How many you need for how long is contextual within each game.

So I agree that you can close down certain high traffic zones like Taiwan, Hiroshima, etc. I also agree that if the allied player isn't adept, they will suffer heavy casualties for less success. The pertinent question is how you maximize protection outside these zone, and how many heavy patrol zones you can make?

What do you think?

In my game with Jocke he was fairly successful early at hunting around the DEI, especially near Balikpapan. Once air groups were trained up though those closed in high density areas became kill zones against Allies subs. The same was true near the China coast and in the region near Formosa and the Ryukyus. Too many bases there.

Historiker has taken an approach to place more subs off the Home islands, and those have gotten some hits but are still limited by the multiplicity of possible routes in the areas the torps not working. It's tougher to guard, but as my search planes get better, I see more sub patrol locations and can both divert ships and bring in the surface forces to disrupt and possibly hit the subs.

A good Allied sub commander would treat it like the most important part of the game, because in my book it was in the war. I think they'd watch patterns, vary their own, mass groups of subs at times and then get them away just as quickly. A good Japanese player doesn't have to use the deep water much though. There are other routes. Most players are not particular enough to change routing daily, ether of subs or tankers. I'm not either, but when I do it's usually much more successful.

To answer your last question more directly, you don't have to go outside of your protection zones. The range of Jakes ad 2E IJAAF planes, or even occasionally G3M3 if important convoys absolutely have to traverse the deep ocean zones to Truk directly, all make it possible to have some increased DL on subs, and if you're over-filling TFs with escorts, which I do at 1:1 if it's important stuff like troops or oil/fuel, then you can usually be fairly safe. The Allies will still get some hits, but it must also get to be a drain on energy to have to send back damaged subs daily, get them repaired, reset patrols and get them back out. It's a kind of feedback loop of frustration, or at least I hope it is.

I'm curious to play the Allies to see how I would fare on that side in a PBEM. Against the AI and it's poor use of escorts, few search flights, I've been tearing it up. I've got some ideas about how to use ten more effectively, but they're untried against a human player, so that'll be very fun when I play that side of the game.

[dennishe]

Below you find the aircraft production on turn 14. I'm slowly increasing production and am currently not building much more than I actually need. I'm going to build some older models to finish the pools of some older engines. The Sally Ki-21-Ic is an example of this. I'm also thinking about building the B5N1 Kate , but for now I still have plenty of B4Ys that can be used as torpedo trainers in pool . We'll see. I will only build a few C5M2 to bridge the gap to the recon-Judy and will very soon convert the factory to something more useful.

A6M2 Zero 67(3)
Ki-43 Oscar 43(7)
G4M1 Betty 36(4)
E13A1 Jake 27
Ki-21-IIa Sally 23
G3M2 Nell 22
D3A1 Val 12
Ki-46-II Dinah 11
B5N2 Kate 10
Ki-27b Nate 10
C5M2 Babs 9(15)
E14Y1 Glen 9
H6K4 Mavis 6
Ki-57-I Topsy 6
Ki-21-Ic Sally 5
F1M2 Pete 3

Over the next months I will increase the engine production further.

Nakajima Ha-35 198(27)
Mitsubishi Ha-32 78(62)
Mitsubishi Ha-33 65
Mitsubishi Ha-31 45
Nakajima Ha-34 17(33)

[Simonsez]

At a minimum don't you want to get more Oscars and Jakes into the fold as quickly as you can? There are alot of Nates and short legged float planes to phase out in front line groups. I'm not sure what mileage you intend to get out of producing old airframes at this point. You'll get enough of those by upgrading front line units to better airframes. The old engines aren't going anywhere and I believe a couple of those stockpiles can be used in the late game to produce cheap kamies that can carry 800kg bombs. I'm not familiar with the potential production/resource contraints in this scenario, but can't you be more agressive with your airframe and engine production? Better and more numerous airframes are your bread and butter at this stage of the game.

Regards,

Simon

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: dennishe

Below you find the aircraft production on turn 14. I'm slowly increasing production and am currently not building much more than I actually need. I'm going to build some older models to finish the pools of some older engines. The Sally Ki-21-Ic is an example of this. I'm also thinking about building the B5N1 Kate , but for now I still have plenty of B4Ys that can be used as torpedo trainers in pool . We'll see. I will only build a few C5M2 to bridge the gap to the recon-Judy and will very soon convert the factory to something more useful.

A6M2 Zero 67(3)
Ki-43 Oscar 43(7)
G4M1 Betty 36(4)
E13A1 Jake 27
Ki-21-IIa Sally 23
G3M2 Nell 22
D3A1 Val 12
Ki-46-II Dinah 11
B5N2 Kate 10
Ki-27b Nate 10
C5M2 Babs 9(15)
E14Y1 Glen 9
H6K4 Mavis 6
Ki-57-I Topsy 6
Ki-21-Ic Sally 5
F1M2 Pete 3

Over the next months I will increase the engine production further.

Nakajima Ha-35 198(27)
Mitsubishi Ha-32 78(62)
Mitsubishi Ha-33 65
Mitsubishi Ha-31 45
Nakajima Ha-34 17(33)

The older airframes that are useful to build out engines are the Ki-21 Ic and the B5N1. Even 24 C5M2 is a bit much. There are only a few groups that use these and you have a lot of IJAAF groups in the meantime to use before the Judy recon arrives.

Even though I definitely think it's good to limit your early model fighter production, your Oscar and Zero numbers seem a bit on the low side. Unless I missed something and this is PDU off the Nates are questionable. There are quite a few already.

[dennishe]

I will tune my economy as much as possible to be able to fight in '45 and even '46 and not to have a full war economy going on in '42 and '43. This makes the Japanese empire somewhat less dependent on the SRA and allows the Japanese empire to defend, there where things are easy to defend.

The Japanese air force consists momentarily from two different types of squadron: frontline squadrons and trainings squadrons. Frontline squadrons will have the best planes available. Trainers will have the cheapest planes available. These can be obsolete planes. I have very little Nates in pool, that is why I'm building a few. The IJA does not have that large of a fighter pilot pool, so quite some IJA figher squadrons are trainings squadrons. I need some extra Nates to make up for operational losses. Why Nates? They are cheap.

The B5N1 is not a bad aircraft and will a fine kamikaze plane. I will build it now, as this saves me a factory when I need all of it. I also build the Ki-21-Ic, because it is quite OK and equally expensive as for example the Sonia. I'm not building 30 C5M's a month, but just a few (actually ment to convert the smaller Nate factory, ooops). I will convert this factory when I have about 20 planes. Repair of the other C5M factories are on hold by the way.

The numbers that I provided are the current numbers that I'm building. I probably will ramp up the Zero and Oscar some more. But not too much, because I do not want 500 aircraft in pool when the Oscar IIa or the A6M3a become available. After '43 I will mass produce everything. I'm currently already starting to mass produce vehicles and some engines. Below is a Figure of the current economy. Note that this is turn 14 and that I'm increasing the economy bit by bit and not +100 at a time (i.e. vehicles is not going to be limited to 132)...

[dennishe]

It is the 22nd of december 1941 and a lot is going on. Invasions of Palembang, Kendari and Rabaul are about to take place. There is no sign of an Allied counter strike yet, except for a Swordfish strike on the Palembang invasion fleet from Singapore...

Capturing Palembang before Christmas is a key objective in the Japanese scheme of events. I do not want to face another fortress Palembang

[obvert]

Looking good.

[dennishe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Looking good.

Khyberbill send the entire Dutch airforce to raid the Palembang invasion fleet together with Hudson and Swordfish bombers from Singers. The Zero cap from Singkawang shot down a lot of aircraft, but couldn't prevent that three AKs were sunk and several others were damaged. Nevertheless, Palembang is mine and the refineries and oil centers are 100% intact. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: dennishe

ORIGINAL: obvert

Looking good.

Khyberbill send the entire Dutch airforce to raid the Palembang invasion fleet together with Hudson and Swordfish bombers from Singers. The Zero cap from Singkawang shot down a lot of aircraft, but couldn't prevent that three AKs were sunk and several others were damaged. Nevertheless, Palembang is mine and the refineries and oil centers are 100% intact. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

That's worth a lot more than 3 xAK!!!

[dennishe]

Kendari and Palembang are mine and at both level 4 airfields G3M2 and G4M1 bombers are stationed. At Kendari I also have torpedo ordnance. At Palembang not yet. With all those long range aircraft I finally have a clear picture what is going on in the DEI. Especially south of Java, there is a lot of action. Maybe it is being reinforced? From tomorrow Zero figthers will sweep over the Dutch airfields and soon the Nell and Betty bombers will be able to strike wherever they want. An American Volunteer Squadron has arrived at Sabang. Several Oscar fighter sweep runs have not had much success (little losses; little success), but in the last turn a squadron of Zero's arrived. So far the A6M2 kicks ass...

[dennishe]

Malaya: Yamashita is making excellent ground with his 25th army. Only a few armored units are fighting the British, who are on full retreat. All other units are on strategy mode and are quickly moving south without major losses. We are expecting to arrive in Singapore early January 1942...

Java: The Allies indeed seem to be moving ships to Java. This could be the 18th UK division...

Southeast Area Fleet: Units are landing all over the area, while KB is bullying enemy ships. Unfortunately, there are little enemy targets around. There were also no troops around at Rabaul, which was an easy pick.

Philippines: The Japanese troops are moving in on Manilla from both the north and the south.

[topeverest]

Moving UK18 to Java doesn't make a lot sense now that PB is gone. Perhaps it is the other way?

[dennishe]

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Moving UK18 to Java doesn't make a lot sense now that PB is gone. Perhaps it is the other way?

That could be. Nevertheless, there is a lot of shipping near Tjilitjap outside the Nell/Betty torpedo range. Also the Allies have positioned at least the Dutch cruisers 10 hexes south of Tjilitjap, ready to counterattack at Java. I have not planned an invasion here in the next weeks. Most transports are occupied elsewhere (DBB-C) and I was actually planning to take Tarakan/Balikpapan, Ambon and Kupang first, before I gather the entire 16th ARmy to land at Java. The 38th will be available than as well. Currently it is still strugling at HK. Nevertheless, Java is an awesome place to fight a major battle with level 4 airbases at Palembang, Kendari and Balikpapan...

[dennishe]

The armored units of the 25th Japanese Army are only two hexes away from Singapore (December 30th 1941), and the Buffelo fighters have dissapeared. My Zero's have shot down 84 of them if my intel is correct. This means that it is about time to start shipping fuel to the Home Islands. Very timely. Similar to the AKs that are currently being used to ship resources I first gathered all my TKs in the main ports and from there am organizing TFs with all ships of similar size and speed. This will speed up loading and transport of oil, as ships will not have to wait for each other. The first convoys will leave ports shortly. Mirri has part of its oil fields and refineries damaged. I'm repairing both! Fuel will flow to Brunei, which port is being expanded to level 6. This will also allow for fast loading of fuel. I want my TKs constant on the move to get every drop of oil and fuel to Japan. Currenlty the port of Brunei already being used to refuel my warships that are active in the Malayan, DEI and Philippine theathers. I don't want to move fuel out of the Home Islands as long as I don't have to.

[CyrusSpitama]

Love your Bill Kelso avatar dennis Banzai !

ORIGINAL: obvert

Hey,

The ASW has been a pet project of mine. I've so far limited hits to big TKs by subs to under 20, and current number of Allied subs sunk is somewhere between 115-125 by 1/45 if reports are close to correct.

Firstly, all of what I learned started with rader in his match with GJ and an earlier one with Jzanes. I've probably done a few things differently as I learned more, but some of it is still a mystery as we never really now what hit a sub (or what was dropped) from the air since there is not indication in the reports.

1) I don't use search arcs, at all. When I've done some limited tests the planes performed better in ASW without search arcs. I only use them for some search if I want to restrict search from an area due to CAP. I use a lot of night search. It brings DL up in that phase making sub attacks less effective at night and ASW TFs find and hit them more often. It may keep some DL in to the day phase but I've never been sure about that. So each area will have a night search Jake group, usually 6-9planes, and each AV moving with big TK convoys will have Jakes night searching also. This is critical so I convert some of the Kyushu and other big fast xAK to AV as soon as possible. The Husimi can work too, but then it's only really small 4 plane groups.

1a) All Jake pilots have 60-70 search, 60-70 ASW and 60-70 low naval. Their bombs do make the subs go home which is nearly as good as killing them. In the beginning they train in groups while flying the ASW mission. So ASW mission at 40% ASW, 40% train, 20% rest at 1k altitude at 8 hex max. Later I'll switch the mission to naval bombing which will train in low naval even though they're still running ASW. Most already have search as this is trained in the first months.

Night search is usually 50% search, 20% rest and 8 hexes, but 10 will be used if needed, especially in the area South of the HI with those big open deep water sections of sea.

Then there are some big training groups (usually flying my surplus crap Dave, Glen and Alf planes) in the first year getting a pool of these pilots. Later they're used to train fighter, bomber and recon pilots.

2) The IJAAF 2E groups are my main killer ASW platforms. When I put 25-50 planes in an area Allied subs usually go away after a few turns, which lets me know it's having an effect. These train in exactly the same manner as the Jakes, but they have to of course finish China first, so in the beginning it's a lot of smaller groups of 9-12, and they're not really effective until mid-late 42. All restricted 1E IJAAF planes will train low naval and ASW in the first few months, and some non-restricted. A few Anns might also be used in a pinch to fly ASW missions. if you keep all of the IJAAF pilots in the planes that are 60 exp and good at ground bombing, they'll still train up as ASW pilots over time set on the 40/40/20 system at 1k, usually max normal range distance. Makes them multi-use, but does take longer than starting from scratch. I do a bit of both.

For the IJNAF the Kate is the best platform, and all KB TB pilots get ASW training when waiting to strike, also bringing their experience and defensive skills up. By the end of 42 nearly every LBA and KB Kate pilots will have at least 60 ASW skill and 65-70 search skills, and these fly at 2k to use their good naval bombing (not low naval) skill. Later I still produce the Kate as it has MAD which helps in 44 when it starts working.

I will use the IJN 2E planes occasionally, but mostly to search a broad area for subs to get the other more well trained units into the right places and to send in the ASW surface forces.

3) The ASW surface forces will have as good commanders as I can afford for the ships, which then function as TF leaders as well. High naval skill and aggressiveness. At first we have to use the crap SC and SC CHa ships a lot, then relegate them to escort and close to port defenses due to their range. The E and DMS ships are good early, but the DMS are also precious for minesweeping with combat and amphib TFs. I use older DDs and even first line modern DDs in critical areas like off of Balikpapan. If I use good DDs I'll step up night search as well, to help protect them.

I don't use the PB much in ASW TFs. Sometimes you have to though.

All surface ASW will be patrolling some needed area and move according to sightings. I may also use them to move with a TF on follow to shepherd it into a port. Usually just patrolling the route slightly ahead works well too.

It's a fun part of the game and can really frustrate the Allied player who of course think it's their right to dominate the sub war, as that's what happened in the war. [;)]

I agree the Japanese couldn't have been this good, but they could have been a bit better.

I have yet to try training low nav for my ASW assets. Is this a common training skill?

I have used Anns to good effect early in the war while my *proper* ASW assets get their ASW skill to a decently trained level. Decent sized bomb and fair range. My tactic was to change a few Sonia Lily squadrons to this plane and produce them for the first couple of months. I never thought to mix actual missions with training early on because it seems newly assigned pilots with low experience train far better than the older pilots with higher experience. Having them do missions while training seems that it might push their experience much higher and therefore slow down my focused training. This means of course I have a number of Jake/Emily/Betty/Nell squadrons out of action with their new replacement pilots learning the new *tactics* for Imperial ASW efforts. Note: I have been training my ASW assets for both naval search and ASW for dual roles. Once the Betty/Nell squadrons have at least low 60s in both search and ASW they focus on naval torpedo training as well. Perhaps this might be a bit much, that is, three primary duties?

I have yet to thoroughly assign *good* commanders to my ASW ships. So far, these efforts have been limited to only my best ASW assets. Which ships do you recommend spending these PPs for?

[Spidery]

Mirri has part of its oil fields and refineries damaged. I'm repairing both!

Miri and Brunei start 50% damaged.

Is it worth fixing the refineries? In this mod they don't generate supply so all you are doing is saving 10% in tanker capacity by shipping fuel rather than oil - there is enough refinery capacity in Japan. It is quite difficult to get the 150,000 supply in you need to fix them and there may be better things you can do with that supply. At least for the start, I suggest fixing just the oil wells until you know you have enough supply there.

I am playing DBB-C and am finding it difficult to get the supply in there to fix things.