China et al

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Symon
Aw crap. ... It is what it is and as it it shall be, world without end, Amen.

Yeah, lotta work for one hex. That's why it is still in my design doc. I'm accumulating hex items like this and when I have enough, then I'll make the effort to fix them. But one? Way too much effort for me.

[witpqs]

I',m in favor of leaving Ramree 'as is', because I think it functions in line with what I think was possible as borne out by what was done.

BUT:

If you do want to change Ramree's influence on Burma, understand that the supply cap at Ramree is not the issue, because DBB 28-C from ~December 2011 already has a very restrictive supply cap at Ramree! In my current game Ramree is built to 3-port, 7-airfield, 1-fortifications and can receive (via land) only 550 supply one time per week from Akyab.

The way that Ramree influences Burma is that (troops and) supply are brought into Ramree by sea and then move inland, which is the reference (the link) that Jeff made.

As far as supply goes, the key to modifying supply moving from Ramree into Burma is Prome. In DBB 28-C ~December 2011 there is no supply cap at Prome. In spite of that, the supply path is made much greater by the need to jump the jungle hex to get to the road. The supply path is 'medium range', (in fact it is just inside of being long range). Supply path from Ramree to any other base in Burma is long range (and of course most bases are completely out of range).

Ramree itself is a very poor port and requires lots of building, starting value being 0(0).

Conclusion: IMO Ramree is fine as is. DBB already put in place a very appropriate supply cap and no further adjustments are needed. If you must reduce Ramree's influence, adjust the supply cap at Prome.

---

This is the (partial) quote from a developer that I am using for the ranges. You start with 100 and subtract the supply cost for each hex.

Short range is trace value of 89 - 100 and is used 4 times per week.
Medium range is trace value 49 - 100 and is used 2 times per week.
Long range is trace value 10 - 100 and is used 1 time per week.

(JWE: I know you know this stuff but I included extra for others.)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Of course I prefer the Arizona Gators we have around here. They are smaller but they're poisonous.

What !!?? Them little weenies?? Dude ..

"Poison" man, I said "poison"! [:D]

[Symon]

Well, witpqs, Pax, Alfred, I looked and looked and looked. The only thing that effectively isolates Ramree is putting in a blocking hex side.

Besides, wasn't Ramree supposed to be a sea-supplied ground-support airbase that was isolated and couldn't be gotten to any other way but by boat? I dunno. Oh well, not hard to do if that's what it takes.

JWE

[Alfred]

Symon,

Please don't read my post as being a plea for doing anything about Ramree. I was merely trying to provide a possible explanation as to what John3rd meant when he asked for Ramree to be fixed. I believe PaxMondo and witpqs were also trying to provide an explanation without themselves championing the necessity of actually doing something.

Frankly, any player who complains about Ramree being a major play problem has really lost the proper perspective about the game overall. It is what it is and precisely because the issue is known any experienced player can adapt their plans and play to take into account the Ramree issue. The absolute simplest solution is to not allow the opponent to own Ramree or sink every cargo ship headed there.

Alfred

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Symon,

Please don't read my post as being a plea for doing anything about Ramree. I was merely trying to provide a possible explanation as to what John3rd meant when he asked for Ramree to be fixed. I believe PaxMondo and witpqs were also trying to provide an explanation without themselves championing the necessity of actually doing something.

Frankly, any player who complains about Ramree being a major play problem has really lost the proper perspective about the game overall. It is what it is and precisely because the issue is known any experienced player can adapt their plans and play to take into account the Ramree issue. The absolute simplest solution is to not allow the opponent to own Ramree or sink every cargo ship headed there.

Alfred

Right on - I think Ramree is fine as is in DBB.

[Symon]

Okey dokey, then. Maybe things will shake out a bit better with the Nasty Roads. Burma will get most roads reduced the lext level down Main --> main2 (or secondary), secondary goes to secondary2 (or track), etc.. That should slow up supply flow a bit in general and have some paths go from difficult to very difficult. Have to see.

[Skyros]

Found this interesting map of china from 1944. The railroad connections are interesting especially between Sinyang and Chengchow. I know it is one source, just thought it was interesting. Here is the link. Lots of other maps that you can really zoom in with out losing clarity. http://collections.lib.uwm.edu/cdm/sing ... /750/rec/2

[Skyros]

Here is the key, it makes more sense with it.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Skyros
Found this interesting map of china from 1944.

Cool !! I have a gigantic map of China in 1920 with the same features. The comparison between years is interesting. Thanks !!

Here's something you might like. The Burma Road, front to back, with cartographic heights, bridges, and lunch stops [;)]. This is a scrunched up picture. I'll attach the best resolution I have next. Can't remember where I got it. Will look. Resulution sucks (even the big one). Maybe I overan by DPI budget for the day when I scanned it [8D]

[Symon]

And this is the best resolution I have of the BR graphic.

Ciao. JWE

[Skyros]

Sweet I love maps. Its always facinating to look to see what they contain. Many of the railroad maps of china show the prewar network and do not show the areas that the Nationalists destroyed to keep the Japanese from using them. Would love to know how accurate it is especially since it shows a break in the system north of Hankow that is intact in AE.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Skyros
Sweet I love maps. Its always facinating to look to see what they contain. Many of the railroad maps of china show the prewar network and do not show the areas that the Nationalists destroyed to keep the Japanese from using them. Would love to know how accurate it is especially since it shows a break in the system west of Hankow that is intact in AE.

Yeah, me too. Anyhow, here's my 1920 map of China. Does show the proposed rail lines, like the one from Chaochou to Canton (Fatshan), but no extension to Whampoa, Kungqwan, Macao, or Hong Kong. Stuff like this really gets me thinking. Good on you Skyros.

Oh, crap, it's 9Mb, even zipped. So can't post it. Gimme an email address by pm and I'll send it to you, if your input filter is big enuf. It's a monster big map in a monster big file. Ciao. JWE

[treespider]

Try this on for size -

Roads in anything other than clear or cultivated get bumped down one level...so a major road through forest is a secondary road, a major road through clear is a major road.

Cultivated without major or secondary roads are classed as trails.

Also did some work to the Yellow river...

[treespider]

As for maps ...

[Symon]

Welcome back, Forest. You have always prompted 'new' thought. And I must say, here and now, that DBB-C exists only because of you. You are one of those "underground" pros-from-dover that we depend on to always come up with something "interesting" and useful.

Good to see ya again, Spidey. BTW, I thought about making all the whacko roads, in that part of China, as trails, but then dug real deep into tactical and supply movement rates, given terrain and hex edgeness, and concluded that 'no' roads, in specific terrain conditions, were equivalent to trails for tactical movement, but had better 'channeling' characteristics for auto-supply flow. Six-of one, halfdozen-of another. But I can see where another paradigm works just as well.

Like your map, but what are all those squiggly characters on it, though? [:D]

Ciao. JWE

[treespider]

Thanks for the kind words John. Been a busy year+ for me, getting moved and settled in at the new home. Then acclimating myself to my new and busier schedule left precious little "free time" for the game. When things warm up around here I will likely be spending time out on the bay trying to decide whether to invest in a boat or not.

As to the mod...still a bit rusty but things are slowly coming back into focus. I suppose the trails are overkill as the movement rates are same-same for clear terrain...but I am pondering a change of some of the cultivated hexes to an underlying coding as "rough" or "swamp" terrain. Tanks get slowed down navigating all the canals and rice paddies on the "trails"...but still a work in progress.

All those squigglies become clear when you lay them next to the American maps from the same period.[;)]

[treespider]

Now that I am settled into the DC area I have finally found a day to take a trip to the National Archives Textual Records located in College Park, MD. Found some interesting references regarding China in the Online Public Access catalog...hopefully the archived records will provide some real insight. Plan on being there all day tomorrow and if fruitful will likely return.