SPwaw OOB Feedback

[KG Erwin]

Thanks, Ruxius. Considering that definition, then my earlier assertion about the satchel charge was wrong. Size 222 is correct for it. Oops--I'll have to change my personal OOBs again.

[Voriax]

Originally posted by Bernie
Also, all the resources I've seen indicate that both tanks only had a single MG, not the two the OOB shows for the Char B1 bis.

Here's a good resource about Char-B1 bis:

http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors ... harb1.html

Two mg's, AP round for the 75mm and yes, a 37mm for the B1 model.

Voriax

[Bernie]

Originally posted by Voriax
Here's a good resource about Char-B1 bis:

http://www.kithobbyist.com/AFVInteriors ... harb1.html

Two mg's, AP round for the 75mm and yes, a 37mm for the B1 model.

Voriax

While the 75mm SA gun could fire an AP round, none were carried on either the B1 or the B1 bis, as this quote from that same article clearly shows:

This is the view looking forward in the hull through the open engine compartment hatch in the firewall to the breech of the 75mm howitzer mounted in the front glacis. The forward hull gun is the 75mm SA 35 with short barrel (only 17.1cal) which was installed in a mount that provided an elevation of +25 to -15 degrees. The howitzer was fixed in traverse, being aimed solely by the driver, in elevation by a hand wheel, and in traverse by turning the entire tank. Another unusual feature of the Char B1 bis was the use of the previously mentioned air compressor to blow fumes out the howitzer barrel after firing the gun and before opening the breech (an early fume extractor). The breech was of the horizontal sliding block type (shown open in this photo) and 74 rounds of 75mm HE ammo was generally carried in storage bins/racks along the vehicle sides.

Note that 74 rounds was the maximum loadout for this tank and that gun, thus, if 74 rounds of HE are carried then there are no AP rounds carried. This coincides with information I've collected from other sites as well. Furthermore, one still has to question the accuracy of the gun, given that there was no traverse. For an anti-troop role, firing HE, that would not be much of a drawback, but for anti-tank work I doubt it would be very accurate, for certain nowhere near as accurate as it is portrayed in our OOB's. There is also a problem with the rarity setting in the OOB (IMHO). Since only 35 B1's were built the rarity should be increased in the OOB

[ruxius]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry no time to look for a solution,here I am only pointing at the problem of lacking LBMs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

..if anyone of you is provided of one of
such LBM filesPLEASE MAKE ME AWARE OF !!


Thank you !



LEGEND
#0 means the editor shows zero value into LBM# field box
#xxx means the editor show a not zero number
but xxx is a name for a ghost LBM file
#yyyR means LBM file is present but corrupted



ANZAC
#0 Tortoise (A39)
#0 Black Prince
#9053 Beaufort MK VIII

BULGARIA
#0 Ford Maultier
UNIT #33 Please rename Fiat as Fiat AB41
#2920 220mm Gun 532 (f)
#9931 Renault AHN

CANADA
#0 Command Post (SOLUTION HERE IS SIMPLE.next unit is a command post and have LBM = #8803
so just edit LBM field for unit #244 )

CZECH
#0 3.7cm Flak LKW
#0 4.2cm IePak 41
#0 Peugeout DK5
#0 CS Inf-AT Team
#962 2cm Flak LKW
#1530 B-71

NATIONALIST CHINA
#0 Fwd Observer
#0 NC Scout Team and NC Recon Patrol
#0 Command Post
#0 NC MG Sec
#0 Two Med Bombers

COMMUNIST CHINA
#0 Command POst
#0 CC Tractor
#0 LMG Team

FINLAND
#0 SST Tractor
#755 Coast Arm.Ship
#8853 7.92 MG-O HMG

FRANCE
#0 Panhard 165
#0 Peugeout DK5

HUNGARY
#0 HU Bycicle
#0 16M 305mm Bty
#0 Raba Botond 33M
#0 command vehicle
#822 43M Lehel A

GREECE
#0 GK Scout Team and Recon PAtrol
#0 Command Post
#8507 Hansa
#1056 Atlas Mk I
#8506 DaK
#8508 CSRG 1915 LGM

INDIA
#0 Command POst
#0 6 Pdr Gun M16

JAPAN
#0 Ki-51 Sonia
#0 N1K1- Jc George
#0 Ku-8-II
#7527 Sa-To
#7528 So-Ki and Type 2 Ke-To

NORWAY
#0 Ammo Canister
#0 Explosion and Demo charge and Fuse (maybe these do not need a LBM)
#0 Dugoit Shelter and Flat Car / Tarp (?)
#from 1999 up to #2008 "Messages" ??? You would say PERSONAGE !!! YEEEEEEEEE very NICE !
I think from slot 170 to 196 all personages could be introduced !

PHILIPPINES
#0 Command Post
#0 PA Sniper
#0 PA Engineer and FT Engineer
#0 PI Constob Sqd
#0 3in Mtn Gun

NATIONALIST SPAIN
#17953 Hs-123 Angelito
#19808 SP Ju 52/3m NOTE : even if such LBM does not exists , you can find in Bulgaria OOBs unit #61 another LBM for the same plane (LBM#2913)
#19394 Engineer Dozer
#19749R
#19801 ATTENTION LBM ERROR...this should be a command post...but LBM represents an armored car
#19803R

REPUBBLICAN SPAIN
#0 Pacos (please check these should be italian unit )

SOVIET UNION
#0 Odessa Tank
#0 T-18
#0 GAZ-A
#168R
#7100 SO Ski Inf
#8162R
#8199 AMO-15

US ARMY
#0 M6A1

US MC
#0 Two Med Bomber
#0 Four Med Bomber

YUGOSLAVIA
#0 YU Inf-AT


LBM number referred but unexisting LBM files

755 - 822 - 962 - 1056 - 1530 - 7100 - 7527
7528 - 8199 - 8506 - 8507 - 8508 - 8853
9053 - 9931 - 17953 - 19808 - 19394 - 19801


Have you got one of such LBMs ?
I don't know neither quipment nor a picture
Please note that if you can confirm this is
the list of FREE SLOTS slots for new LBMs !

175 - 176 - 185 - 187 - 188 - 220 - 223
224 - 225 - 241 - 246 - 247 - 349 - 350

from 353 up to 365

376 - 377 - 378 - 415 - 416 - 423
424 - 426 - 433 - 434

from 445 up to 506 (except for 496)

508 - 509 - 513

from 535 up to 614 (except 555 - 568 )

627 - 629 - 632 - 634 - 659 - 668
673 - 680 - 683

from 689 up to 696

709 - 710 - 711 - 717 - 718 - 727 - 728
738 - 745 - 746 - 753 - 759 - 760 - 769
770 - 772 - 781 - 782 - 785 - 786 - 789
790 - 793 - 794

from 798 up to 810 (except 804 - 809)
from 818 up to 849 (except 822)
from 868 up to 899
from 931 up to 948 (except 938 - 944 - 946)

955

from 958 up to 965 (except 962 )

997

from 1531 up to 1599
from 1602 up to 2899

2917 - 2918 - 2919

from 2921 up to 7000
7024 - 7042 - 7078 - 7097

from 7143 up to 7199
from 7393 up to 7400
from 7435 up to 7499
from 7534 up to 7600

7602 - 7623 - 7624 - 7625

from 7631 up to 7649

7697 - 7700 - 7800 - 7807

from 7817 up to 7900

7926 - 7951

from 7960 up to 7999
from 8051 up to 8100
from 8192 up to 8198

8200 - 8212 - 8244

from 8265 up to 8300
from 8345 up to 8399
from 8403 up to 8499
from 8508 up to 8600
from 8612 up to 8700
from 8711 up to 8799
from 8822 up to 8899 (except 8853)
from 8908 up to 8999

9030

from 9040 up to 9049
from 9059 up to 9899
from 9930 up to 17952 (except 9931 - 13018)
from 17954 up to 19699 (except 19394)
from 19755 up to 19796

19804 - 19807 - 19809 - 19810

from 19813 up to 76099 (excp 19822 - 19830 - 19833 - 19840)
more than 76104



LAST VERY IMPORTANT:
Found one converter to change jpeg files into lbm format...
however while LBM are readable by Irfanview once converted
spwaw still can't read them properly...WHAT SHOULD I USE
to convert jpegs in the game format ?
Thank you !

[Warhorse]

I use Paintshop Pro, you just change the format to bmp, then copy/paste the new bmp into an existing LBM, and voila!!

Warhorse

[BryanMelvin]

Thanks for the tips! These info will help very much my friends

[Voriax]

Bernie, you forgot one word 'generally'

For me that means some tanks might have AP ammo. Although as the AP penetration of that 75mm gun is about the same as the 47mm, why carry any? Perhaps a small amount if there's ever need to engage two armoured targets simultaneously.

As for the accuracy..I like to think that weapon accuracy is a test bed accuracy...what a fixed gun can achieve with standard ammo. Aiming point stays the same and we'll observe the pattern of hits..how tight a grouping that combo can achieve.

That article says that the aiming method was surprisingly accurate due to the advanced steering mechanism that allowed very small movements. But still, this should be taken into account in the fire control and targetting values. If these are crappy then it doesn't matter how good a gun you have, if your only sighting aids are a bead on top of the barrel and mk1 eyeball.

These two cannon tanks are a bit of a problem as clearly there should be two different FC and Trg ratings but there's no way to put them in...


Just my opinions...

Voriax

[Bernie]

Originally posted by Voriax
Bernie, you forgot one word 'generally'

For me that means some tanks might have AP ammo. Although as the AP penetration of that 75mm gun is about the same as the 47mm, why carry any? Perhaps a small amount if there's ever need to engage two armoured targets simultaneously.

As for the accuracy..I like to think that weapon accuracy is a test bed accuracy...what a fixed gun can achieve with standard ammo. Aiming point stays the same and we'll observe the pattern of hits..how tight a grouping that combo can achieve.

That article says that the aiming method was surprisingly accurate due to the advanced steering mechanism that allowed very small movements. But still, this should be taken into account in the fire control and targetting values. If these are crappy then it doesn't matter how good a gun you have, if your only sighting aids are a bead on top of the barrel and mk1 eyeball.

These two cannon tanks are a bit of a problem as clearly there should be two different FC and Trg ratings but there's no way to put them in...


Just my opinions...

Voriax

Not to get into semantics, but the way I read that sentence the generally refers to where the rounds were stowed, not what rounds were carried. Regardless, other sources also point to only HE being carried for the 75mm. Indeed, the description of the tank in the game encyclopedia mentions the 75mm as only being used for "soft" targets. A Google search for info on the tank garners a few dozen hits, and on those pages where ammo loadout is listed the rounds for the 37mm or 47mm are broken down into HE & AP rounds, while the 75mm rounds are shown as only a single (undesignated) type. Now, I doubt they'd load only AP for that gun, so (IMHO) the rounds must be HE.

Yes, I did see where it said the gun was surprisingly accurate, but I'll disagree with you about what that means. Since we're talking about a gun system, and not just the barrel mounted in a benchrest for group measurement, the elevation and traverse factors of the arrangement have to be taken into consideration. Given that the vast majority of the data I've found indicates the gun was used only in a non-AT role "surprisingly accurate" can mean, "It could fire a shell to a decent range and hit close enough to inflict significant damage on troops" However, in an AT role, "surprisingly accurate" would have to mean it stood a very good chance of hitting a moving tank at a significant range, something I just can't see as being feasible with that kind of traverse arrangement.

The bottom line though is that the way the tank is now configured in the OOB, it can make easy kills on any moving German armor at ranges up to 19 hexes (just under 1000 meters) using AP rounds for the 75mm (in an Aug 1940 scenario I'm currently playing) That kind of ability just isn't historically accurate and I'd like to see it corrected.

[BryanMelvin]

The Char B and Char B bis have been fixed

Removing AP ammo from Char B helps solve the problem.

Many thanks for your imput on these tanks

[Bernie]

Originally posted by BryanMelvin
The Char B and Char B bis have been fixed

Removing AP ammo from Char B helps solve the problem.

Many thanks for your imput on these tanks

Thank you Bryan. When do you expect to release the updated OOB's?

[BruceAZ_MatrixForum]

Hi Bryan:

This may not be repairable or be too big a task and others may disagree but I have come across many instances in historical books that mention the "assimilation of platoon heavy weapons” into the squads during WW2. In other words, in a typical American and English/Canadian infantry company, most Company and Battalion Commanders integrated or assigned the heavy weapons such as MG’s or Bazooka Teams, for example, from the Weapons Platoon/Company into the line squads when advancing and kept them in the organic formation for special assignments or special defensive situations. However, keeping them in their organic unit was rare.

I think this was standard doctrine for most US formations and I believe this was accepted as a standard U.S. Marine tactic after August 1942. I would bet this is still the typical tactic by most ground commanders today as it makes good sense from a logistics and C&C sense. I know it was accepted practice in late-WW2, Korean War, and Vietnam War periods for a typical Marine BLT.

It was very common to see a squad with its “assigned” MG or Bazooka team. According to what I have read, the reason was more for “support” (logistics) because many teams could not realistically haul enough ammo with a 3-4 man MG team and routinely assigned the extra ammo loads to infantry man in the attached squad. Common sense.

Instead of a typical platoon of 3 squads with 3 MG and 3 Bazooka teams, you would see 3 REINFORCED squads with an assigned MG and bazooka team in each. This gives the basic squad more firepower but slows the squad down due to the extra loads. With the number of weapons slots, this may not be practical. However, is it possible to have the squad “carry” (as in assign) the teams?

Food for thought.


Bruce “Recon” Hodgman
Semper Fi

[BryanMelvin]

Originally posted by BruceAZ
Hi Bryan:

This may not be repairable or be too big a task and others may disagree but I have come across many instances in historical books that mention the "assimilation of platoon heavy weapons” into the squads during WW2. In other words, in a typical American and English/Canadian infantry company, most Company and Battalion Commanders integrated or assigned the heavy weapons such as MG’s or Bazooka Teams, for example, from the Weapons Platoon/Company into the line squads when advancing and kept them in the organic formation for special assignments or special defensive situations. However, keeping them in their organic unit was rare.

I think this was standard doctrine for most US formations and I believe this was accepted as a standard U.S. Marine tactic after August 1942. I would bet this is still the typical tactic by most ground commanders today as it makes good sense from a logistics and C&C sense. I know it was accepted practice in late-WW2, Korean War, and Vietnam War periods for a typical Marine BLT.

It was very common to see a squad with its “assigned” MG or Bazooka team. According to what I have read, the reason was more for “support” (logistics) because many teams could not realistically haul enough ammo with a 3-4 man MG team and routinely assigned the extra ammo loads to infantry man in the attached squad. Common sense.

Instead of a typical platoon of 3 squads with 3 MG and 3 Bazooka teams, you would see 3 REINFORCED squads with an assigned MG and bazooka team in each. This gives the basic squad more firepower but slows the squad down due to the extra loads. With the number of weapons slots, this may not be practical. However, is it possible to have the squad “carry” (as in assign) the teams?

Food for thought.


Bruce “Recon” Hodgman
Semper Fi

Well aware of this and the new oobs already have this added in. Allied Platoons will have one to two Anti-tank Piat, Bazooka, etc.. teams assigned them.

Long gone are the days when every squad had a AT weapon

This makes better two player games too;)

[KG Erwin]

Bryan and Bruce, I earlier addressed the issue of USMC Raider companies and battalions having attached Boys-ATR teams in their TOE of Sept 1942. The official USMC Parachute Battalion TOEs, as reflected in 7.1, also include ATR teams. However, I do not believe this was common practice in regular USMC rifle companies during the Guadalcanal campaign. During long campaigns featuring the USMC, I'll sometimes buy AT sections and attach them to individual Raider platoons (only) if the campaign starts in August 1942. According to Rottmann, in the 1943 E-series Marine division TOEs, each regiment had a pool of 53 Bazookas. So, the possibility of assigning these to individual rifle platoons for the USMC OOB after 1942 is already taken into account in the 7.1 OOBs. For the Germans, the supply of PzB 39s in 1939 was limited, and I'm assuming that the new OOBs haven't changed the availability for these in the 1939 German infantry/pioneer units. Again, for a long campaign I may buy two of these Inf-AT platoons and distribute them to the infantry platoons.

[KG Erwin]

Bryan, is there any possibility you could publish a word or pdf document to show all of the changes for the final official OOBs? My personal OOBs have some changes which are not officially sanctioned, such as my German-language OOB 70. Given that, I don't necessarily want to overwrite that particular OOB, if your final version doesn't offer significant value changes. BTW, I want to offer my thanks to you for undertaking this task, especially for shoring up the gaps in the lesser-known and-used minor power OOBs.

[BryanMelvin]

Originally posted by KG Erwin
Bryan, is there any possibility you could publish a word or pdf document to show all of the changes for the final official OOBs? My personal OOBs have some changes which are not officially sanctioned, such as my German-language OOB 70. Given that, I don't necessarily want to overwrite that particular OOB, if your final version doesn't offer significant value changes. BTW, I want to offer my thanks to you for undertaking this task, especially for shoring up the gaps in the lesser-known and-used minor power OOBs.

I'll post more info when these are finalized. There are many changes

[VikingNo2]

I know its a little late to be bringing up changes, but I feel that the spotting meter I think its a # or something like that should be taken out of the game or changed quite a bit, if a units passes all the checks and spots a unit then great it spots the unit. Unless you really believe that a Truck Driver sitting in a truck , that is running, can really spot a Elite recon squad at 500 meters ! Or ( insert laughter here ) hear them, my fault sence them.


It just makes no sence that units just feel other units. I know you hear reports of such and yes it does happen ( with battle hardeded highly experienced troop ) but the game, does not potray it well; at best it should be a 30%-40% chance ( For elite troops ). And for units that are avarage, or have low experience, even lower, they should regularly be getting false positives as well, for example I have heard this option takes into account hearing someone but not seeing them, this is also one of the biggest reason for false positives. 1 ( the pig in the bush, or the dog or the civilian ect.... ) 2 ( just plain old inexperience and fear)

It should be less accurate and units with little combat experience should be getting a large amount of false positives. I know most like this option, but if it wrong it is wrong.

[BryanMelvin]

Originally posted by VikingNo2
I know its a little late to be bringing up changes, but I feel that the spotting meter I think its a # or something like that should be taken out of the game or changed quite a bit, if a units passes all the checks and spots a unit then great it spots the unit. Unless you really believe that a Truck Driver sitting in a truck , that is running, can really spot a Elite recon squad at 500 meters ! Or ( insert laughter here ) hear them, my fault sence them.


It just makes no sence that units just feel other units. I know you hear reports of such and yes it does happen ( with battle hardeded highly experienced troop ) but the game, does not potray it well; at best it should be a 30%-40% chance ( For elite troops ). And for units that are avarage, or have low experience, even lower, they should regularly be getting false positives as well, for example I have heard this option takes into account hearing someone but not seeing them, this is also one of the biggest reason for false positives. 1 ( the pig in the bush, or the dog or the civilian ect.... ) 2 ( just plain old inexperience and fear)

It should be less accurate and units with little combat experience should be getting a large amount of false positives. I know most like this option, but if it wrong it is wrong.

As for spotting - this is in the mech.exe itself and not in oobs. I am not sure if a new mech exe update will be released any time soon that would be able to fix this at this time

[CPT Shoe]

Not sure if this is a 7.1 issue or only in H2H, but when I purchase the German Motorized AT sections they come with an Opel with a carry capacity of 106 and the At guns (76MM at least) have a carry cost of 107.

Tough to discover that after purchase the prime movers can not move the guns!

[KG Erwin]

The Opel Blitz in 7.1 has a carry capacity of 112. You must be referring to the H2H OOBs. In any case, you underscore the importance of making sure you have the proper transport to carry those heavy weapons!

[CPT Shoe]

This instance for me occured in H2H...I was not sure if it was the same in 7.1

When you purchase these as a unit you assume that someone has already checked this out. I would be at fault if they were purchased seperately and it would be a lesson learned, I guess it is still a lesson learned, just harder to swallow.