Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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veji1
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by veji1 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

A quick question.

Does anyone know roughly how many Japanese IDs are available in Korea? He can´t use Manchurian troops without paying PPs to cross the border so most likely the only thing on Korea will be what starts there and possible some unrestricted IDs recovering.

I have kind of assumed it wouldn´t be much and this seems confirmed by recon. Havn´t had time to look this up myself properly.

Regarding the PPs, are you sure this is how both of you understand it ? instinctively I always bundle Korea and Manchukuo together.. I am pretty sure he will send some Manchurian troops in without even thinking he might be breaking an HR. Really to me Korea and Manchukuo are the same command de facto.
Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam
mind_messing
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: veji1

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

A quick question.

Does anyone know roughly how many Japanese IDs are available in Korea? He can´t use Manchurian troops without paying PPs to cross the border so most likely the only thing on Korea will be what starts there and possible some unrestricted IDs recovering.

I have kind of assumed it wouldn´t be much and this seems confirmed by recon. Havn´t had time to look this up myself properly.

Regarding the PPs, are you sure this is how both of you understand it ? instinctively I always bundle Korea and Manchukuo together.. I am pretty sure he will send some Manchurian troops in without even thinking he might be breaking an HR. Really to me Korea and Manchukuo are the same command de facto.


I agree. I don't think the Japanese High Command would have cared for something as insignificant as the border between two of their satalite states when the Ameicans were within a days sail of Japan. By this point, with Soviet activation around the corner, you'd be as well letting him move to Korea - less troops defending the level 7,8 or 9 border forts!
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

[font="Verdana"]Known Japanese forces in Korea[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

121 ID. (Divided at Moppo) -SIGINT
19th ID -starts at Heijo
79th, 80th RGT - Starts at Keijo, 78th RGT - Starts at Kaishu Combines to the 20th ID.
78th ID, 96th ID, 111th ID, 150th ID, 160th ID - Arrived as reinforcements.

Total strength:
7 restricted (Korea Army) IDs and 1 unrestricted. Some mixed BDEs.

There is a possibility Erik might rail some unrestricted IDs currently fighting in China. But I know of only one (22nd ID). Could be more though. But not too many.

Realistically that should mean about 10 divisions. Should be very manageable considering the armor I brought. The question is do I strike North or East...
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

I hadn´t considered that. Our HR clearly states "Pay full PPs to cross national borders". We did an exception for this with Thai units able to move into Burma. So I kind of assumed Manchurian troops wouldn´t be able to cross the border per our HR...I think I will have to bring this up with Erik.

Thanks for the heads up!
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jeffk3510
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]2nd Battle for the East China Sea[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

So, I had my first CV reaction. Not a pleasant experience...the CV Fleet separated from the Amphibs and that cost me some Amphibs I shouldn´t have lost. But luckily the CVs/CVEs stayed together.

Turns like these are hard because you lose so much. You have to keep the bigger picture in mind. Oddly enough today was a victory. Bittersweet but still a victory. Erik had his chance and did a lot of damage. But not enough...

------------------------
The Battle
------------------------

Yesterday I decided to move the entire fleet closer to the coast. I did this to intentionally draw Eriks strikes. The thought was that I rather take the strikes when not having to devote LRCAP to covering a landing or split the CVEs off. Not sure it was the right call but done is done.

I also decided to stand down my strike planes to put the Escorts on CAP. This I think was the right call as at the end of the day Corsairs was spent with only 150 left on CAP while the 700 Hellcats still flying managed to deflect countless of LBA strikes.

There was so much happening its hard to report everything but basically the entire Japanese air force and the KB launched from 3 hexes against my CV fleet. I got a really good CAP up but two KB strikes managed to get through.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Nakadori-jima at 101,56

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 187
B7A2 Grace x 182
D4Y4 Judy x 261


Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 121
Corsair IV x 114
Hellcat I x 30
Hellcat F.II x 16
Seafire IIC x 16
Seafire L.III x 4
F4U-1A Corsair x 78
F4U-1D Corsair x 552
F6F-5 Hellcat x 887


Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 65 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 60 destroyed, 14 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 76 destroyed, 22 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 1 destroyed
Hellcat F.II: 1 destroyed
Seafire IIC: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 7 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 12 destroyed


Allied Ships
CVL Independence, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CVL Langley, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Viking, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Valhalla, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CVL Cabot, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Healy
CV Victorious, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVL Cowpens, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Franklin, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Makin Island, Torpedo hits 1
CV Indefatigable, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CLAA Oakland, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Mertz
DD Remey, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Corregidor, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA San Diego, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Evans, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Halford, Bomb hits 1
DD John Henley, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hale
DD Albert Grant, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Converse
CVE Matanikau, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Luce, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

That is the worst strike. Another KB strike in the afternoon finished most of the damaged ships off.

Sadly and most importantly the Amphibs didn´t react and was left without CAP which cost me. Luckily not too badly. I lose only 2 APAs and another 10 or so damaged but in no danger of sinking. Considering there are some 200 APAs/AKAs its not going to change anything.

------------------------
Losses
------------------------

Sunk:
CV Frankling, CV Victorious, CV Valhalla, CV Viking, CVL Independence, CVL Cabot and CVL Langley

Will sink:
Indefatigable, 3 CVEs, DD Remney, 2 APAs

Might make it:
CV Bunker Hill (64/53/37)

------------------------
Aftermath
------------------------

This might look very bad but I only lost about one seventh of my carrier capabilities. Not much given the big picture. Now I just have to make sure I havn´t suffered the losses in vain. I put the CV Fleet there to do a job and they did what I wanted them to do. 1700 Japanese planes are shot down during the battle. The KB air wings are wrecked again and LBA won´t be a factor for at least a week. My amphibs are intact.

Tomorrow we land in Korea.



Image

Did your carriers react because you had them set that way in the react range, or do they have really aggressive TF commanders?
Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.
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jeffk3510
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

[font="Verdana"]2nd Battle for the East China Sea[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

So, I had my first CV reaction. Not a pleasant experience...the CV Fleet separated from the Amphibs and that cost me some Amphibs I shouldn´t have lost. But luckily the CVs/CVEs stayed together.

Turns like these are hard because you lose so much. You have to keep the bigger picture in mind. Oddly enough today was a victory. Bittersweet but still a victory. Erik had his chance and did a lot of damage. But not enough...

------------------------
The Battle
------------------------

Yesterday I decided to move the entire fleet closer to the coast. I did this to intentionally draw Eriks strikes. The thought was that I rather take the strikes when not having to devote LRCAP to covering a landing or split the CVEs off. Not sure it was the right call but done is done.

I also decided to stand down my strike planes to put the Escorts on CAP. This I think was the right call as at the end of the day Corsairs was spent with only 150 left on CAP while the 700 Hellcats still flying managed to deflect countless of LBA strikes.

There was so much happening its hard to report everything but basically the entire Japanese air force and the KB launched from 3 hexes against my CV fleet. I got a really good CAP up but two KB strikes managed to get through.
Morning Air attack on TF, near Nakadori-jima at 101,56

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 187
B7A2 Grace x 182
D4Y4 Judy x 261


Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 121
Corsair IV x 114
Hellcat I x 30
Hellcat F.II x 16
Seafire IIC x 16
Seafire L.III x 4
F4U-1A Corsair x 78
F4U-1D Corsair x 552
F6F-5 Hellcat x 887


Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 65 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 60 destroyed, 14 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 76 destroyed, 22 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair IV: 1 destroyed
Hellcat F.II: 1 destroyed
Seafire IIC: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 7 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 12 destroyed


Allied Ships
CVL Independence, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CVL Langley, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CV Viking, Bomb hits 7, Torpedo hits 3, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Valhalla, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
CVL Cabot, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Healy
CV Victorious, Bomb hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVL Cowpens, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
CV Franklin, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Makin Island, Torpedo hits 1
CV Indefatigable, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
CLAA Oakland, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Mertz
DD Remey, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CVE Corregidor, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA San Diego, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Evans, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Halford, Bomb hits 1
DD John Henley, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DD Hale
DD Albert Grant, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Converse
CVE Matanikau, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Luce, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

That is the worst strike. Another KB strike in the afternoon finished most of the damaged ships off.

Sadly and most importantly the Amphibs didn´t react and was left without CAP which cost me. Luckily not too badly. I lose only 2 APAs and another 10 or so damaged but in no danger of sinking. Considering there are some 200 APAs/AKAs its not going to change anything.

------------------------
Losses
------------------------

Sunk:
CV Frankling, CV Victorious, CV Valhalla, CV Viking, CVL Independence, CVL Cabot and CVL Langley

Will sink:
Indefatigable, 3 CVEs, DD Remney, 2 APAs

Might make it:
CV Bunker Hill (64/53/37)

------------------------
Aftermath
------------------------

This might look very bad but I only lost about one seventh of my carrier capabilities. Not much given the big picture. Now I just have to make sure I havn´t suffered the losses in vain. I put the CV Fleet there to do a job and they did what I wanted them to do. 1700 Japanese planes are shot down during the battle. The KB air wings are wrecked again and LBA won´t be a factor for at least a week. My amphibs are intact.

Tomorrow we land in Korea.



Image

Ive read through all of the cap vs escort numbers.. bouncing the cap.. yada yada....but your CAP outnumber his total strike 3:1 in the first strike
...I just don't get it. It would appear to me that with this many ships and planes involved, ships will ALWAYS be vulnerable.. regardless of how much
protection you give them from the sky.
Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
Did your carriers react because you had them set that way in the react range, or do they have really aggressive TF commanders?

They had react "0" and no commanders above 50 in aggression. This is actually the first time I had them react! Crappy timing eh! [:D]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
Ive read through all of the cap vs escort numbers.. bouncing the cap.. yada yada....but your CAP outnumber his total strike 3:1 in the first strike
...I just don't get it. It would appear to me that with this many ships and planes involved, ships will ALWAYS be vulnerable.. regardless of how much
protection you give them from the sky.

As indicated when he sunk 4 CVs I guess. [:)]
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jeffk3510
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
Did your carriers react because you had them set that way in the react range, or do they have really aggressive TF commanders?

They had react "0" and no commanders above 50 in aggression. This is actually the first time I had them react! Crappy timing eh! [:D]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510
Ive read through all of the cap vs escort numbers.. bouncing the cap.. yada yada....but your CAP outnumber his total strike 3:1 in the first strike
...I just don't get it. It would appear to me that with this many ships and planes involved, ships will ALWAYS be vulnerable.. regardless of how much
protection you give them from the sky.

As indicated when he sunk 4 CVs I guess. [:)]

Interesting on the reaction.. based off of that, they SHOULDN'T have reacted, but they did. Interesting. Could threat tolerance come into play?

You are correct that the CVs sunk in the grand scheme of things is minimal and they're there to be used. I just look at it and cringe haha.

Do you have any idea how many LBA Japan had IRL at this stage of the war?

I love following your AAR, and wish I had the time to pick up the pace on my games. Something about two kids under four probably helps with that...just like
the rest of you guys.. but I just rarely find the time for more than a few turns a week. Early war games are always the same.. same areas, same results.

Oh well.. late war Allied toys look fun.

Looking forward to the upcoming turns.
Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.
JocMeister
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Location: Sweden

RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

No clue about the threat tolerance. I always have it set to "ignore" or whatever its called. Used these settings since the start of the game and never had problem until now. Dang! [:D] Absolutely no clue on the Jap planes but I would assume they air force was completely wiped out by now. Someone else knows? [:)]

Have the second one coming in 2 months. Already have 13 months old girl. I can see whatever spare time I have disappearing once the second one arrives. Hope to have this game pretty much wrapped up by then! My other game has a much slower pace which will be fine.
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veji1
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by veji1 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I hadn´t considered that. Our HR clearly states "Pay full PPs to cross national borders". We did an exception for this with Thai units able to move into Burma. So I kind of assumed Manchurian troops wouldn´t be able to cross the border per our HR...I think I will have to bring this up with Erik.

Thanks for the heads up!

Yep, better talking about it to make sure you both are on the same pave and no bad blood !
Adieu Ô Dieu odieux... signé Adam
JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

Got a note from Erik saying he might not get the turn done until later tonight. Since I only slept 3 hours last night in 15 minutes intervals I will head to bed as soon as Ida falls asleep. 3rd night in a row she doesn´t sleep properly. Last night she woke up at 3:30. [X(]

So update wont arrive until tomorrow unless a miracle happens!
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jeffk3510
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Got a note from Erik saying he might not get the turn done until later tonight. Since I only slept 3 hours last night in 15 minutes intervals I will head to bed as soon as Ida falls asleep. 3rd night in a row she doesn´t sleep properly. Last night she woke up at 3:30. [X(]

So update wont arrive until tomorrow unless a miracle happens!

Our 1.5 yr old still wakes up 2-3 times a night, but my wife takes him as he's still breast feeding. Shes been a zombie since his birth.
My oldest is pretty low maintenance.. he's 3.5 yrs old. I usually take care of him when he gets up in the night if he does. He'll come in
and hop in bed if we don't get up and take care of him. When he does, I just go crash in his bed and swap him haha. We're trying to figure
out when we want to have our third....[8|]
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jeffk3510
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

No clue about the threat tolerance. I always have it set to "ignore" or whatever its called. Used these settings since the start of the game and never had problem until now. Dang! [:D] Absolutely no clue on the Jap planes but I would assume they air force was completely wiped out by now. Someone else knows? [:)]

Have the second one coming in 2 months. Already have 13 months old girl. I can see whatever spare time I have disappearing once the second one arrives. Hope to have this game pretty much wrapped up by then! My other game has a much slower pace which will be fine.

Remain on station, and react zero.. Yes. I THINK there is a deal in the manual that a CV WILL react one extra hex
when enemy CVs are present regardless of settings. I could be entirely wrong, but I recall reading something about
it.

You were three hexes away during the strike correct? HOWEVER, it says TF set to zero react WILL override this..?


FOUND IT...



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Lokasenna
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by Lokasenna »

For what it's worth with regard to Korea/Manchukuo, the Korea garrison is counted towards the 8,000 AV garrison requirement. The game treats them as one large area when it comes to the Manchukuo garrison. In my mind, that makes Manchukuo troops fair game, but I doubt he can push you off anyway. He'd be better served leaving them up north to delay the Soviets, IMO.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


Realistically that should mean about 10 divisions. Should be very manageable considering the armor I brought. The question is do I strike North or East...

My move would be east. Fusan gives you a second good port to force supplies through and it removes whatever dregs of resources/supply he has been barging across. Secures your flank from any amphib response from the HI, however unlikely. Gives a second route north he has to worry about.
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koniu
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by koniu »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

For what it's worth with regard to Korea/Manchukuo, the Korea garrison is counted towards the 8,000 AV garrison requirement. The game treats them as one large area when it comes to the Manchukuo garrison. In my mind, that makes Manchukuo troops fair game, but I doubt he can push you off anyway. He'd be better served leaving them up north to delay the Soviets, IMO.

Delaying soviets in September is giving him nothing if allies have Korea in May.
Until SU will activate HI will be bombed to oblivion by planes flying from Korea AFs.

Only logical thing to do is to try to push back invasion back to sea asap. Even with risk of destruction of Manchuria garrison and earlier SU activation becouse garrison AV will go below 8k because of combat attrition.

@JocMeister
I know You have HR about border crossing , but in this situation, at lest for me, it feels unnatural. At lest worth of discussion. Enemy land 100 miles from home and 300k Japanese soldiers is defending area 1500 miles from home
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JocMeister
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by JocMeister »

Hey guys. Didn´t know about Korea counting towards Manchuria garrison. I guess its my own for no checking it. Strictly speaking I´m in the right here but I´m not going to push it. Who knows, might even be beneficial for me. Erik has a tendency to overreact at times so he may end up sending too much into Korea letting the Soviets break through his MRL on day one.
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aztez
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by aztez »

That was some carnage but you managed to get extra airbase for your bombers so well done.

As for PP HR.. I have always counted Manchuko to include Korea as many have said and I think their AV value counts towards that garrison requirement. Thus no PP needed to move in/out of Korea but that just my opinion.
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koniu
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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by koniu »

Also units and bases in Manchuria and Korea are under the same Kwangtung Army HQ. It is another point to allow freely movement of those troops between Korea and Manchuria.

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RE: Battle for Okinawa!

Post by FeurerKrieg »

No sure if you are taking a tally, but I view Korea and Manchukuo as one place as well, largely because they are all under the same command HQ. Unlike China and Manchukuo which are under different commands. The fact that Korea units count towards the 8,000 AV also has always made me treat these areas as one.
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