Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[Lokasenna]

15k is the maximum altitude for dive bombing, not 14k.

The escorts will then fly at 17k.

Those detection numbers look like a spread of about what you'd see if they were all set at 15k.

Edit - I am reading both sides of this. I saw no mention of the unescorted strikes that hit your CAP wall! [:-]

[Captain Cruft]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Why not just rail the un-needed planes to the Soviet Union base off-map?

Only off map bases I can rail them to are Soviet Union and Alma-Ata for a total of 300 AS. I´m assuming there arn´t no special rules concerning off map bases and AS?

If the planes are not doing anything it doesn't matter if they are servicable or not.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
15k is the maximum altitude for dive bombing, not 14k.

The escorts will then fly at 17k.

Those detection numbers look like a spread of about what you'd see if they were all set at 15k.

Ah, I seem to remember they started glide bombing at 15k? What do you mean "the escorts will then fly at 17k"?

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Edit - I am reading both sides of this. I saw no mention of the unescorted strikes that hit your CAP wall! [:-]

Obviously the entire battle didn´t consist of 4 strikes. Doh? [:)] I left out the ones that didn´t cause any damage. Both allied and Japanese strikes. There were about 8-10 strikes per side that either didn´t penetrate the CAP or did so but failed to hit anything.

I´ve attached the entire CR for you if you want to have a peek! [:'(]

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Why not just rail the un-needed planes to the Soviet Union base off-map?

Only off map bases I can rail them to are Soviet Union and Alma-Ata for a total of 300 AS. I´m assuming there arn´t no special rules concerning off map bases and AS?

If the planes are not doing anything it doesn't matter if they are servicable or not.

Point taken. But that means I will have to ground a lot of planes. 808 Engines to be exact. That is the current AS shortage for the SU. I might cream some more out of what available by massing everything at level 8-9 AFs which will doubt AS. Can´t do it now though as I´m not allowed to move any units until the SU activates.

[JocMeister]

Got an email from Erik earlier tonight. Sadly it was his turn to get hit by a computer virus (I was hit a year back). I hope he manages to sort it without doing a clean Windows install. So no turn until he can get that fixed obviously.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
15k is the maximum altitude for dive bombing, not 14k.

The escorts will then fly at 17k.

Those detection numbers look like a spread of about what you'd see if they were all set at 15k.

Ah, I seem to remember they started glide bombing at 15k? What do you mean "the escorts will then fly at 17k"?

They definitely dive bomb up to 15k and if you look really hard you can find evidence in post history here. The 14k that comes up so often originates, I think, from a typo in Skyros's reference sheet (or even farther back). Set some DBs to 15k and try it.

I thought that escorts fly 2k higher than the strike they were escorting. I don't have a source for this, just hearsay. Perhaps someone can confirm or disabuse me of this notion.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
15k is the maximum altitude for dive bombing, not 14k.

The escorts will then fly at 17k.

Those detection numbers look like a spread of about what you'd see if they were all set at 15k.

Ah, I seem to remember they started glide bombing at 15k? What do you mean "the escorts will then fly at 17k"?

They definitely dive bomb up to 15k and if you look really hard you can find evidence in post history here. The 14k that comes up so often originates, I think, from a typo in Skyros's reference sheet (or even farther back). Set some DBs to 15k and try it.

I thought that escorts fly 2k higher than the strike they were escorting. I don't have a source for this, just hearsay. Perhaps someone can confirm or disabuse me of this notion.

It's been 2k since WITP so far as I know. However, you should set the escorts in the spinner to the strike altitude. The engine puts them up the 2k by itself. If you do it you'll bone coordination.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: JocMeister



Ah, I seem to remember they started glide bombing at 15k? What do you mean "the escorts will then fly at 17k"?

They definitely dive bomb up to 15k and if you look really hard you can find evidence in post history here. The 14k that comes up so often originates, I think, from a typo in Skyros's reference sheet (or even farther back). Set some DBs to 15k and try it.

I thought that escorts fly 2k higher than the strike they were escorting. I don't have a source for this, just hearsay. Perhaps someone can confirm or disabuse me of this notion.

It's been 2k since WITP so far as I know. However, you should set the escorts in the spinner to the strike altitude. The engine puts them up the 2k by itself. If you do it you'll bone coordination.

Yeah, I meant that it occurred automatically based on strike altitude.

[JocMeister]

That is one of the things I love about the game. You learn something new every week even after playing for 6 years. [:)] I had 14k for DBs in my notes as well. Don´t know where I got it from though. My CAP was at 10k. Didn´t know the Escorts went in at 2k higher. Wonder if going in higher then my CAP somehow "sheltered" the strike planes. As I said Erik has had some remarkable success getting his strike planes in the alpha strike cleanly though.

Anyone know anything about this?

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
Just watched the entire replay. Again the Avengers saved the day. I´m starting to wonder if I would have been better off using the radar equipped SDB-5 instead. Does the radar effect target accuracy (dropping bombs) or just the chance to find target TFs? My Helldivers have done quite poorly on many occasions.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]2nd of May - Aftermath[/font]
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Got the turn back from Erik sometime during the night. Things are better then expected. [:)] 14 CVEs are sunk with another likely to sink. The rest will make it. CV Randolph and CVL Princton just took glancing blows and can continue combat operations.

Air losses are about half what I would expect. While I certainly lost a good amount of planes I still have almost 400 TB/DBs left. Escorts are still available in decent numbers.

Our priority right now is to reunite the fleet under the CV CAP which is mostly intact. I lost only about 70 Corsairs which means CAP will still be very strong (700-800 planes). I will also try and guide the damaged CVEs to safety. I won´t do any offensive moves towards Moppo this turn. I want to see what Erik does. He still have 2500-3000 LBA bombers that will likely take off tomorrow. I want everything tucked in under a CV CAP tomorrow morning.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

That is one of the things I love about the game. You learn something new every week even after playing for 6 years. [:)] I had 14k for DBs in my notes as well. Don´t know where I got it from though. My CAP was at 10k. Didn´t know the Escorts went in at 2k higher. Wonder if going in higher then my CAP somehow "sheltered" the strike planes. As I said Erik has had some remarkable success getting his strike planes in the alpha strike cleanly though.

Anyone know anything about this?

Yes.


1) escorts fly 2k above a strike they coordinate with. This could have caused your CAP to attack the Sams from a position of disadvantage, making it less effective.

2) BUT:

Erik did NOT get his "alpha strike" cleanly through. He got shredded. He only attacked with enough planes that you CAP was unable to stop everything.

The combat replay split into separate parts - for example an escorted package preceeded and followed by small unescorted packages that get ripped apart, as in your battle - happened because of your CAP. It was way too much for Erik´s escort fighters to protect every attack plane. The rest was exposed to CAP without any protection.

The only part of the strike that got through unmolested was the one you are thinking of as the "alpha strike", which in thruth was simply the percentage of the strike in cover range of the escort fighters. This part might have fared better as the escorts held the alt advantage.

It is simply incorrect to watch every combat animation as separate entity. Doing so leads to a whole lot of wrong conclusions about cause&effect relationships, and keeps many players from better understanding the air model.

[JocMeister]

Good point. I tend to forget about the separate parts being parts of the whole.

So in this case I would have been better off putting some my CAP higher up then? If that is the case where would be the best altitude assuming Erik came in at 15k? At 18k above his Escorts or at 16k above his strikes? Or a mix of both?

[ny59giants]

Not knowing enough yet about layered CAP, I would think you need at least three, if not four, different altitudes. With Escorts coming in at 2k above the DB/TB (max for DBs being 14k or 15k), then fighters with the best speed should be at 18k to 20k with another one or two at 2k to 3k below that. Thus, 19k for one altitude band, another at 16k, and a third at 13k. Those at the 13k would be the ones with the best maneuver rating to try to avoid his fighters bouncing on them. The final altitude would need to be down at 5k or 6k (maybe lower??) to get a shot at kamikazes. Where am I wrong in this thinking?? [&:]

[JocMeister]

I had a layered CAP in place but considering Erik came in very high I doubt any of the lower planes had any chance to get up there.

I had the US Corsairs at 10k, Brit Corsairs at 6 or 8 (can´t remember) and then some British SeaFires down at 4k. I expect only the US Corsairs had a chance to get up to the strike planes. Certainly going to change stuff around for next time.

Should be able to start doing the turn in an hour or so. Been busy renovating the hallway and stairs to the 2nd floor all day. Going to make some coffee and pour a scotch now. [:)]

[JocMeister]

Turn is off to Erik. Very straight forward. Just trying to get everything in under the CV CAP which should still be in good shape. Around 600-700 planes.

Oh, and while Erik is hopefully looking at Korea we ordered a massive strike against the HI. Only 120 Fighters over Osaka, 30 over Hammatsu and none over Tsu. Fingers crossed!

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]3rd June -45[/font]
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Only seen the replay so no real numbers.

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Korea
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By the looks of it Erik turned on most of what LBA he had left. A few strikes got though and one inflicted damage.

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Kaishu at 101,49

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-67-Ib Peggy x 27
Ki-100-I Tony x 17

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 17
Corsair IV x 90
Seafire L.III x 17
F4U-1A Corsair x 150
F4U-1D Corsair x 346

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 19 destroyed
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-100-I Tony: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CV Implacable
CVE Slinger, Kamikaze hits 1, heavy damage
CVE Altamaha
CVE Natoma Bay, Kamikaze hits 1
CVE Kadashan Bay, Kamikaze hits 1
CVE Fencer

None of them were previously damaged. Hopefully they will make it. Sadly a few allied strikes are flown against some xAKLs around Fusan during the day. [:@]

Erik sent some bombers against Moppo but only managed 4 Runway hits. But with the amount of disruption among the engineers I doubt the field will be open anytime soon.

Allied Sweeps from the Okinawas take a huge toll on some Sams probably on LRCAP.

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Strat bombing
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Not really sure if I should be happy or devastated. Nothing went as planned (as usual [:D]). Not one of the escorts flew and the sweep arrived well after the bombers. I can´t complain about the result though but man I did pay a heavy price today. [:(]

This is the last of the Osaka strikes. Look at the fires!!!

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Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Heavy rain [:(]

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 1
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 5 damaged

Ki-83 factory hits 1
Fires 524400 [X(]

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

Sadly that was proceeded by lots of THIS. [:(]

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Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 76 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 7
A7M2 Sam x 30
J2M3 Jack x 36
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 23
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 46
Ki-61-II KAI Tony x 32
Ki-100-I Tony x 28
Ki-102b Randy x 5

Allied aircraft
PB4Y-2 Privateer x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 1 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 2 destroyed
Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 8 destroyed, 10 damaged
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 4 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 2
Fires 810

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Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Heavy rain [:(]

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 3
A7M2 Sam x 15
J2M3 Jack x 6
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 8
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 36
Ki-61-II KAI Tony x 27
Ki-100-I Tony x 9
Ki-102b Randy x 3

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12
B-29-1 Superfort x 3
B-29-25 Superfort x 14
B-29B Superfort x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak
B-29B Superfort: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 55
Ki-83 factory hits 1
Fires 27000

If this burns for a couple of days the damage can end up disastrous. Fingers crossed for that. Also got some hits on a Ki-83, a Frank and a Shinden factory. If the Shinden factory was knocked out (only 6 hits though) I think Erik has only two more but I will have to double check.

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Allied losses
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Its hard to speculate on losses but I might have lost 3-400 B29s/B24s today. So annoying because I had 100 P38s set to escort over Osaka but not a single one showed up. The sweeps showed up in the afternoon and wrecked the CAP. If they had showed up before the bombers losses would have been a tenths.
The Invaders Sweeps never showed up at all and they hit a big CAP losing 70% of the planes...ouch.

But if the fires burn for a couple of days now it will all be worth it. I have never even managed half of that number of fires before. I hope the LI and HI burns real good!

Hitting the Fighter factories was also good. I think in the future I will not spread out on several bases but rather focus everything on a single target. But it will be a while before we can strike again. No doubt. The only positive thing with the losses was the the Privateers seems to have taken most of the losses. I do have a good pool of those thankfully. Sadly the Liberator and B29 pools are empty and losses will probably take months to recover.

[CaptBeefheart]

I think you need to move some of your CAP up in altitude. NY59Giants's understanding matches my own. You need some low ones to handle kamis and low Betty strikes, some up near 20,000, and most in the middle somewhere. Also, could you give us screenshots of your LCUs at Moppo showing the hard and soft values? I'd be interested to see that.

Cheers,
CC

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

I think you need to move some of your CAP up in altitude. NY59Giants's understanding matches my own. You need some low ones to handle kamis and low Betty strikes, some up near 20,000, and most in the middle somewhere. Also, could you give us screenshots of your LCUs at Moppo showing the hard and soft values? I'd be interested to see that.

Cheers,
CC

Agreed, I did move around 200 Corsairs up to 17k for this turn. [:)]

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]HI Strike[/font]
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Finally got the turn from Erik. Losses were much, much lighter then expected!! [&o] I did take a jab though but going up against a fully functional Japanese air force losses are unavoidable. This is not the real war when Japan was flying Biplanes with fuel drums attached to them. Erik is flying Ki-83, Franks, Jacks and Sams in almost unlimited numbers. Two turn ago Erik had 2000 Fighters on Kyushu and Korea alone.

His focus on Korea has given me great opportunities over the HI. He can´t continue to fly offensive missions over Korea AND cover is industry properly. Today saw less the 100 fighters over Hamamatsu. I can´t squander this opportunity. Push, push, push!

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Allied losses
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We of course DID take losses but nothing even close to what I feared. Its actually not that bad! The Privateers took a big hit but that the only air frame I have in numbers. That is why I moved them to the Okinawas in the first place although they have only 8 bombs.

Privateers - 41 These can be instantly refilled. I have a pool of 218 planes.
B-29B -40 Losses in this airframe is to be expected. They do no better at night. Compare it to the losses with the other B29s and you can see what difference having defensive guns do...
Invaders -30 Can also be replaced.
B24 - 27 Pool is dry
B29-24 -14 Pool is dry
B29-1 -5 Pool is dry

Total losses
157 Bombers

So relieved right now. [:)] I was expecting twice the losses at least! The 225 P38s for Osaka (on Escort) AND the sweeps for the Invaders were all situated on the same base (Okinoba something something). Turns out everything on that base rained in. The problem lies in the x2 engines on the P38. They simply take up so much room its hard to put them on the same base as the strikes.

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Damage assessment
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Hard to do a proper count here as the fires havn´t burned down in Osaka yet. There are still 200k fires burning and that usually means a lot of damaged HI/LI. Oddly enough no HI/LI was damaged on the first night. That better change for the next turn...

What I do know is that Ki-83 plant at Osaka is now toast and Frank Factory is still running but at half power (15). We also burned down the Shinden factory which was the most important target! [&o]

I was certain Erik had 4x30 Shinden factories but I can only find 3 now. That means we have managed to destroy 66% of the Shinden production! This is very important as the Shindens arrival is set on 6/45. I don´t know if/when Eriks production started but now he is getting only 30 per months. Very manageable numbers. [:)]

The normal thing to do now would be to rest and recover. So I won´t do that. I´m going to try and dig out some more planes somewhere and hit the Ki-83 factory at Hammatsu. I have 75 P47Ns that never flew their Sweeps over Osaka. I can use those. All I need is to find some bombers for the job. If needed I will fly in some from China. I have 50 brand new Aussi B24 coming up but I don´t think I can get them all the way in the next turn.

With some luck Erik continues to focus on Korea and assumes no more strikes will come for a while letting his guard down even more.

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Priority Targets
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I will continue to hit Fighter factories. I started down that road and trying something else now is probably counterproductive. For now I will focus on the following:

The KI-83 factories.
Frank Factories.

[JocMeister]

[font="Verdana"]Naval losses[/font]
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Only the Munda sank during the turn. She was hit 2 days ago and had 88 fires burning. I had intended to scuttle her but forgot about it.

No other CVE are in sinking condition. But they move so slow! Frustrating to be limping alone at 2 hexes per turn. This turn I actually moved only ONE.

If some of the CVEs can´t pump out some water in the next couple of turns they will have to be scuttled. I can´t lock the entire navy in escorting them back for 3 weeks.