Command Decisions: Samurai vs. Yeomen RA 6.4

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

The real problem, IMHO, is why they are sailing a key asset (Yorktown) into an exposed condition to "drop a few bombs" on an unimportant island. Even if their plan came off they gain nothing. From the strategic perspective, a high risk, low reward effort.

+1

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

They erroneously assumed the CVLs in the South Seas were a CARDIV, then thought they had all your CVs spotted given the Perth Op. In fact, their key assumption was wrong. The real problem, IMHO, is why they are sailing a key asset (Yorktown) into an exposed condition to "drop a few bombs" on an unimportant island. Even if their plan came off they gain nothing. From the strategic perspective, a high risk, low reward effort. As far as avoiding subs and air search, remind me - did you move flank into attack position? That would negate the screen.

I have been lurking in the open ocean SW of Johnston (about 4-6 hexes). Think that is just beyond Catalina range.

Have also been using Jaliut for my R&R location for the heavies. There are 8 AOs (in two TF) that have continiously kept the Fleet fueled and ready for Operations.

If it was a Raid, then why haul along the old BBs? I like there using of extra Fighters on Yorktown but they should have come with ALL three CVs. A four on three fight would be been VERY BAD for Japan...

[pws1225]

Wow!

[castor troy]

what these guys are doing is more than questioning, really. What gives sending yet another lonely carrier around that even got old BBs with it that are nothing but bomb and torp magnets. Ten years ago (when was the game released?)
every Allied player should have learnt to keep his CVs together. Then you run around yours in several of your car divs that could be taken out by a 360 aircraft US carrier TF for none or not much damage (been there done that... [:'(]).

Not wanting to take away your victory, but it feels like beating up the AI that is doing just horrible things.

[John 3rd]

Christian makes a sound point. I ALWAYS take risk with my CVs. Most of the time it works. Sometimes it does not and that is life in game of AE.

Here is our exchange of email comments today:

From: John R. Cochran III
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 11:52 PM
To: Jim
Cc: larry fulkerson
Subject: 3-11

The Manila attack wasn’t surprising. I was going to launch my first assault and then changed my mind. Looks like orders didn’t get to one of my ID. My fault because I forgot to tell it NOT to attack. Ooops.

My CV—CVLs are wherever I WANT them to be. So far I’ve done a pretty good job of confusing the two of you as to where what is. Open-mouthed smile

Sinking those two CVs for no loss is HUGE presently. Can you bounce back from it? Of course. Better be careful though. You’ve lost a batch of CAs and CLs! Still cannot believe my luck in hitting that TF and not just a bombardment force. Expected a couple of cruisers or a pair of old BBs. Was stunned by what was actually present.



ALLIED RESPONSE

I think I’m at fault for delay of game here... Sorry it was done early this morning.

Amen on the CV’s

My inexperience shows because I never have played the Japanese “Death Star”. I always had too many production/resources problems playing as the Japanese.

I guess I’m too predictable as the Allies always hounded me into the four corners of hell. But I learned from this, so hopefully that’s what’s supposed to happen.

I thought Manila and Soerabaja were charity morale boosters... <grin>

I’m betting I’m getting roasted in your AAR... perhaps deservedly so.

It was not a bombardment TF as you keep saying, It was Max Protection play into a supposedly empty ocean area. That was the shocking part for me. 4 BB’s each with 1K in AA firepower and 5 CA’s with +300 AA to add into the mix and the ASW power of the 12 DD’s and a stacked and packed CV with the best in fighter protection I had to offer. ***P O O F! they’re gone*** Just drop a couple SBD bombs on Johnston’s airfield and skedaddle back to Pearl. Test run the week before with the three CV’s went fine, turned around and full powered back to Pearl in 2 days... <shakes head> Oh well, the goat horns for me.

[zuluhour]

I'm betting peace feelers go out soon.

[John 3rd]

If my opponents o decide to bow out, is there anyone out there who would be interested in picking it up?

[ny59giants]

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

If my opponents o decide to bow out, is there anyone out there who would be interested in picking it up?

I've never played the allies B4. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... I've got a game going against Bullwrinkle and I'm not willing to steal turns from him but as long as you're good with 3-4 turns a week on average and your opponents are good with someone taking over for them...

Sure - I'd be willing to kick your arse. <grin>

[John 3rd]

Hey One-Eyed Jacks! Had an email going between the guys and me today. They claim to still be in. Are using the game for a 'learning' experience. Appreciate the kind offer and will keep it in mind as things continue to roll in our campaign.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Hey One-Eyed Jacks! Had an email going between the guys and me today. They claim to still be in. Are using the game for a 'learning' experience. Appreciate the kind offer and will keep it in mind as things continue to roll in our campaign.

now that's going to be quite a harsh learning experience I'd say... [;)]

[aztez]

Hmmm... I offered these guys advice to stop throwing things away for nothing and they went "nuts"! [:D]

This PBEM has the most potential where allied might lose West Coast. So, maybe go for it for the fun.

They sure are going through harsh "learning experience". Oh, well... [:D]

[zuluhour]

speechless.

[John 3rd]

The turns have kept moving. We are now at 3-18.

Got an email this morning that is interesting. I've asked to Post it over in the scenario design side of the Forum. Am going to Post it here regardless:

John,

Larry and I both agree winning is not realistic for us and are playing for the experience, I hope that doesn’t ruin it for you and we will try our hardest to win, just there is no wiggle room and I’d gladly trade ALL future draft picks for a few F4F-3 and B-17’s TODAY!!!

You are too good of a player for me as I said in the beginning, my experience was mostly with stock and your first mod was better to play against Larry than stock, but the latest revision is just too hard, again in my HONEST opinion – I’m really not trying to slam you – you’re a helluva good player and a really good guy. You have put hundreds of hours into this mod and I recognize that, but is the average “Joe Allied Player” is going to play because they have to play an actual year’s worth before they’re competitive as the Allies? It seems you’ve created the grognard’s grognard game, the top 5% of the game and the playing pool will be really small.

Do you remember the question you asked about CR throwing the kitchen sink at you in that past game? If he was playing this game it would not be possible to replicate it. there wouldn’t be enough shipping to take his troops to Malaysia, and he couldn’t refit his fighters after one engagement never mind a months worth of engagements. His play would have been as suicidal as my Yorktown expedition under these conditions.


1) Can you explain production for bombers? According to Wikipedia in September 1942 there was a peak of 168 B-17s in the 5th Air Force, in March 42 before all of them being switched over to other aircraft by mid-1943. I lost around 40 B-17’s SUNK and I still only have 49 B-17’s left. with no replacements/pool. That puts me just under the historical curve for March 42, but adding only 15 planes per month drops me below by September 1942 because the historical figures included replacements in the 168 peak number. The operational losses (all causes) for B-17’s in the Pacific was 30% – so adding 30% to 168 actual aircraft would be an additional 50 aircraft needed to reach the historical peak they attained.

2) What’s with the Dutch love? A 5X replacement value in fighters over USAAF?, when they are historically impotent? (The Dutch only got absolute rejects the other air forces didn’t want or refused to use) Especially in this game as they are Sir Robin’ed at Soerabaja... If I hadn’t pulled all the supplies back there when I took over from Larry – you would already own the whole dang thing (again I’m not blaming you for being a good player), just there was no historical background to pick the Dutch reinforcement IMHO... Strengthen the Aussies, Brits, USA/USN? that might make a difference for the Allies, but I just cant see any Allied advantage choosing Dutch – they are basically withdrawn and can’t respawn later in the game without a HQ/base which dies in Soerabaja (in this game at least).

3) Buff’s do not belong in the same air as Zeroes... BUT even Buff’s will attrit a few Zeroes, much more than the none I have to offer right now. The Japanese player has a multitude of options, can’t I get one concession?. Build reserve entry level fighter or bomber groups into the game that must be purchased with PP’s to bring in the game. Now its my option as at least I can choose to have options – not the locked in and locked down as you have it now. Buy extra Buff’s and now I can’t change HQ for the troops for lack of PP’s? its still a choice I get to make – “not take it or leave it” as the mod has it now.


Concrete suggestions – The ones I’d like to see, while keeping your Japanese as is...

A) Does the coding allow “disabling” future aircraft for existing upgraded editions? The F4F-3 continues to ramp up instead of stopping, penalty is the F4F-4 gets 50% production penalty for the rest of the run. The F4F3-A and maybe a B version with minimum upgrades but the planes show up quicker because the production doesn’t stop? (see reasoning above) THE total number of fighters would stay the same – the available date is what changes. Under conditions like we’re playing now I would foresee the Joint Chiefs pounding the table for more fighters RIGHT NOW!!! The hell with tomorrow, if we don’t survive today! Therefore Grumman doesn’t stop building F4F-3’s...its reasonable and possible – not off the wall like asking for the Nimitz to appear out of the storm clouds...

B) Buying aircraft with PP’s, The whole mod premise is the Japanese are not following historical doctrine, why is it imperative the US/Allies do so strictly? If you made more Cape Town auto-convoys with reserve airgroups instead, or they were “killed” and had to be bought out with PP’s. Then the Allied player has the option of transferring the planes to another group or disbanding them into the pools... Again its an option the Allied player has to make and there are consequences for doing it built in.

[Mike McCreery]

I would say that the mod is not designed for everyone, including entry level AFB's.

It is simply another scenario in a great game.


And I am not sure if anyone would disagree but it was not the mod at issue here.

With the additional LCU's and Naval power the Allies have to sir robin themselves in SE Australia, up in India and reserve their strength until 1943 to be competitive. Smashing the 1941/42 allied forces against the Japanese empire seems like a lose/lose every time.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
March 19, 1942

It has been a while since I've done a swing around the map so, therefore, it is time.

North Pacific
The fighting has been going on up here. The Americans have built a fighter base at Cold Bay. The arrival of P-39s flying CAP over Dutch Harbor was somewhat rude. There have been some fighting between surface ships and I brought up CV Junyo and CVEs Taiyo and Hosho. These carriers smacked the Allied shipping around and sunk 5-6 AKs. This pretty much forced the issue and the Allies have retreated from the area. Umnak is about to go to Lvl-2 AF and I already have a Chutai of Vals as well as Zeros present and ready to fly once the base expands.

A surface fight occurred on the 16th. Three Japanese CA and 3 DD engaged CA Astoria, CL's St Louis, Honolulu, and Concord and 5 DDs. We lose Ashigara to a Critical Hit and that SUCKS! Astoria is beaten up pretty badly and, perhaps, sunk. St Louis took it on the chin as well. Not good but it could have been far worse!

Central Pacific
Everything has settled down since the 2nd Battle of Johnston Isle. Midway--Johnston--the Line Islands are all building up nicely. Forts are at 3+ currently.

South Pacific
Pago Pago
This base is proving to be a ROYAL PAIN. The 2nd ID and an SNLF Assault Brigade are beating against the Marine units present. Tomorrow we'll force the issue. I've ordered a Shock Attack following a BB Bombardment tomorrow. To add to the excitement will be all four CV's Kate Daitai from CARDIV1 and 5. These 100 bombers and the battleships will FINISH this fight! I truly hope so...

Tahiti Region
A group of DDs and DMS have been prowling around trying to ambush Japanese convoys. Decided this needed to be stopped and started sniffing about. The Allies have established a base at Hiva Oa. This is a new Japanese target. The CVLs moved in on the 16th and they launched a strike of 24 Zero and 30 Kate to attack shipping. In another rude shock they were engaged by 32 P-39! My Zeros ate them up but we did lose 5 Zero and 4 Kate while smashing DD Morris and an AO. As soon as Pago Pago falls we're coming here with a BIG STICK!

Australia
NW Coast
A landing at Wyndham will occur tomorrow. The troops are driving on Katherie and Daly Waters. An entire ID is landing at Wyndham and it will move to take Darwin.

West Coast
Perth is Japanese.

The Japanese have driven the Aussies SW towards Busselton. We'll take that base tomorrow and capture the six units driven to this location. This operation has proceeded practically perfectly.

DEI
Allies are contained at Soerabaja. A controlled attack drove the 4th ID out of the hex about 5 days ago. Now the 90th ID Reg and 35th Brigade are unloading and moving to re-close the noose around this base. An ID at Kendari will move to finish off the Dutch once assault shipping gets there to pick it up.

Philippines
Allied troops are at Manila. Three ID, 6 Artie unit, and 4 Eng Regiment stand poised to finish the Americans off. Supplies are gone in Manila. The Southern Army HQ is now at Clark and everything is focused on this last stronghold. A couple of BBs have arrived at Luzon and will be used to raise the disruption level. Nearly 150 bombers are hitting the base everyday. Figure a serious attempt to be made on or about the 25th.

Burma
Air War
The Allies have done us the favor of trying to contest the air over Central Burma and Akyab.

Zeros and Oscars had been flying CAP and tackling Allied bombers. This changes on the 17th when we shift over to offense, Sweeps occur and the Allies attempt to fight off nearly 100 different fighters smacking the target. The 19th watches 51 P-40s meet the SWEEPS of 24 Zero, 12 Zero, 34 Oscars and strike of 27 Fighters and 36 Lily-Sally. The end of the day sees 12 Japanese losses (6 in the air and 6 operationally). to nearly 30 Allied fighters. Looks pretty fair for the moment.

Ground
Troops will attack Myitkyina tomorrow.

China
The Chinese are trying to take the initiative away from the Japanese and, to some extent, they have. There is some fighting and several sieges occurring. Ichang is a focus of them presently, They was an attack on the 19th that reduced the Forts down to 3. Have reinfrocements moving here. All Japanese bombers (about 130 or so) will begin hitting the troops tomorrow.


That pretty much takes care of the general news.

QUESTIONS?

[John 3rd]

Reluctant Admiral 6.6
Samurai vs. Yoemen
SS Sinkings/Damaged

March 19, 1942

Here are the numbers:

Ro-Class

Ro-34
AKL Fortune San Jose 12-07-41
AKL Regulus Zanboanga 12-08-41

Ro-63
AP Koolinda Port Moresby 12-11-41
TK Sunchaser Port Moresby 12-12-41
AKL Mortlake Cairns 01-19-42

Ro-65
CL Perth Palm Isle 12-13-41

Ro-66
AK Alcoa Pathfinder Pago Pago 12-11-41
AK Dardanus Pago Pago 12-15-41

Ro-67
AP Mungana (D) Nadi 12-13-41
AK Nisqually (D) Nadi 12-15-41
AK Steel Age Nadi 12-15-41
AK Nisqually Moala 03-03-42
AP President Monroe Gau Isle 03-04-42

Minelayer SS

I-121
AP Dominion Monarch (D) Toboali 12-08-41
AVP Poolster Batavia 12-09-41
AK Wing Sang (D) Batavia 12-14-41

I-122
AS Janssens (D) Oosthaven 12-07-41
AMC Hector Diamond Harbor 02-15-42

I-123
AP Kota Radja (D) Banjoewangi 12-07-41
AK Tjikand (D) Banjoewangi 12-09-41
AP Ville de Verdun (D) Parmakasan 12-19-41
CL De Ruyter Parmakasan 01-12-42
AG Albatross Kendari 01-24-42
I-124
AP Vanden Bosch Soerabaja 12-09-41

I-Boats

I-1
AO Var (D) Noumea 12-07-41
AKL Loyaute Noumea 12-07-41
AO Var Noumea 12-08-41
AKL Loyaute Noumea 12-08-41

I-2
AP Cap Padaran Isle of Pines 12-07-41
TK Herborg Brisbane 12-16-41
AK Yochow New Castle 12-17-41

I-3
AK Cagou Isle of Pines 12-07-41

I-4
APD Waters Channel Isle 12-08-41
AP Poelauhaut (D) San Lius Obispo 12-08-41
PC Hermes San Diego 12-16-41

I-5
PC Daphne San Fransisco 12-31-41
PC Ariadne San Fransisco 01-03-42

I-6 Mine Channel Isles 12-20-41

I-7
AO Sabine San Fransisco 12-08-41
AM Vireo Lihue 01-12-42

I-9
AK Iron Knight Palmyra 01-02-42
AK Iron Chieftain (D) Palmyra 01-02-42
DD Dunlap (D) Pearl Harbor 01-11-42

I-10
AK Ruth Alexander Pago Pago 12-10-41
AP President Jackson Pago Pago 12-12-41

I-15
TK British Venture Mangalore 02-24-42

I-17 ASW TF Raiatea 02-13-42
AKL Maqureva Raiatea 01-29-42

I-20
ARD-1 Pearl Harbor 01-23-42

I-21
AM Grebe Pearl Harbor 01-11-42

I-22
AKL New Hebrides Rarotonga 02-17-42
AKL Tamara Rarotonga 02-17-42

I-24
DD Ellet Amanu 03-08-42

I-25
DD Balch Lihue 01-12-42

I-26
AK Aroturus Channel Ilse 12-13-41

I-28

I-153
AP Hong Peng (D) Sepandjang 12-19-41
AK Gold Star Denpasar 01-13-42
TK Vivi Cochin 02-05-42

I-154
AP Van Cloon Soerabaja 12-08-41

I-155 Mine Palembang 12-10-41
AP Kedah Muntok 12-07-41
TK Anastasia (D) Palembang 12-09-41
TK Francol Palembang 12-09-41

I-156
KV Jasmine Trivandrum 03-13-42

I-157
AK Clan Maciver (D) Koggala 12-10-41
TK British Energy Mangalore 02-10-42

I-158
AP Indora Columbo 12-11-41
AK Empire Ability (D) Bombay 02-20-42
AK Empire Glen Bombay 02-22-42

I-159
AK Zannis Camanis Perth 02-09-42
AK Garmula Perth 02-11-42

I-160
AK Haresfield (D) Koggala 12-11-41
AK Talthibius Koggala 12-11-41
TK Lady Myrtle Trincomalee 12-13-41

I-162
AKL Nanchang Diamond Harbor 01-02-42

I-164
AK Nirvana (D) Rangoon 12-22-41
AK Catrine (D) Perth 02-17-42

I-165
TK Augustina Oosthaven 12-07-41
AK Demodocus Oosthaven 12-10-41
AK Steel Traveler Albany 02-12-42

I-162
AK Varsava Perth 02-15-42

I-164
AK Jalakrishna Perth 02-15-42
AK Mulbera Perth 02-15-42

I-166
AP Kepong Lingga 12-07-41
TK Pan Scandia (D) Muntok 12-09-41
AK Demothenes Muntok 12-10-41
AKL Orishany Muntok 12-10-41
AK Sophocles Perth 02-07-42

I-168
AK Hauraki (D) Savaii 12-16-41
AK Silksworth Tau 12-22-41
TK Belita (D) Pago pago 12-23-41

I-169
AP President Monroe (D) Pago Pago 12-10-41
AP President Monroe (D) Pago Pago 12-11-41

I-173
TK Eidsvold Palmyra 12-17-41
AP Raranga (D) Palmyra 12-21-41

I-175
AK West Ivis (D) Lahaina 03-03-42

Japanese Losses:
I-6, I-17, and I-155


Allied Warships Sunk/Damaged
SUNK: CL Perth and DeRuyter, DD Balch and Ellet
DAMAGED: DD Dunlap

Other Allied Ships Sunk/Damaged
AK 23—11
AKL 10--0
AP 9---9
TK 9---3
AO 2---0
AVP 1---0
APD 1---0
PC 3---0
AM 2---0
AS 0---1
ARD 1---0
AG 1---0
AMC 1---0
KV 1---0

Total Allied Losses: 64 Sunk and 24 Damaged

[zuluhour]

That's quite a tally of sub kills. The game rewards thought in this area. They have to be nervous every time they hit the New TF button,

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
March 20-21, 1942

We have more action and pull a particularly nasty thorn out of the Japanese side.

North Pacific
The Northern Fleet retires towards Paramushiro Jima and some R&R. Will send Junyo, Hosho, and Taiyo back to the homeland to re-size a few groups and then head for other destinations.

Central Pacific
Very calm.

South Pacific
Pago Pago
FINALLY capture this base on the 20th. Took nearly a month to achieve but it is SWEET! The Allied lines are hit by BBs Hyuga and Ise and then 46 Zero and 92 Kate rain their payloads down on the helpless Marine positions. A Shock Attack by the 2nd Infantry Division and an SNLF Assault Brigade take the base easily. A 10-1 result ensures with the Japanese losing 150 men in exchange for 7,441 POWs, 167 Guns, and 252 Vehicles. Five units are wiped of the American OOB. Almost forgot to mention that the ENTIRE SQUADRON of Lexington's Vindicators is destroyed during the attack. BANZAI!

The two Infantry units still have 35,000 supply on the island and, in a pleasant surprise, 35,000 fuel present. The 2nd ID immediately begins prep for Hiva Oa while the SNLF look to Nadi. With the lateness of the date, it looks like we'll have to take these bases the old-fashioned way with prep!

Tahiti Region
Have a STF approaching Hiva Oa to see if there are any ships still present.

KB is moving down here to link-up with the CVLs and throw their weight around Hiva Oa for a couple fo days prior to returning to Pago Pago for R&R.

Australia
Western Kangarooland
Drive the survivors of Perth back into Busselton. Will take the base and force a surrender in 2-3 days.

All mines are removed from Perth and a Transport TF arrives to lift two ID off and send them to a new destination. This target is FAR AWAY from Aussieland.

NW Coast
Land at Wyndham on the 21st. The base will fall tomorrow.

Philippines
The first true assault on Manila will happen in several days. Just had two BBs arrive and am waiting for 4 DMS to sweep mines.

Burma
FURBALLS! In a mvoe that only the Japanese can like at this point, the Allies are fighting for aerial control over Akyab and trying to bomb/sweep Magwe. Akyab sees 4 Zero/Oscar fall for 16 enemy. Magwe watches Zero and Oscars mangle some Hurricanes and bag some Blenheims and B-26. NICE!

China
The Chinese get the drop on Japan and capture Ichang on the 20th. I missed a group of Corps arrive from the north. The lone Inf Div is forced out, however, this is a GREAT opportunity since the Chinese are now out in a clear terrain hex. Will paste the AF so no Forts are built while hitting the troops as often as possible.

SS Operations
I-158 SINKS KV La Gracielse near Bombay

Engineering
Malden AF-4
Amot AF-5

The Allied units lost in the Pago Pago attack:

[ny59giants]

I sent John the following email about "Battle of Eastern Solomons" but thoughts some other readers of his AAR could answer the questions I had.

John,

You get time to find a good answer for these questions before our next phone call. They come from reading book you gave me - The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign by John Lundstrom.

1) Nagumo is back in charge of a very weak KB for the first possible CV vs CV battle since Midway and part of the plan is to send just CVL Ryujo (24 Zero & 9 Kate) ahead of CarDiv 5 (Shokaku and Zuikaku) to attack G'canal if no CVs are found. Japan is short of any carriers and they think that 9 Kates are going to do what at G'canal?? [&:]

2) The first and only strike to find CV Enterprise has just seen her take three bomb hits from Vals. Meanwhile, a chutai of 3 Vals go after BB North Carolina rather than after Enterprise to do what?? The 250kg bombs will do very little vs a BBs armor. Why didn't the pilots know that a CV is a worthy target for these bombs. The SBD carrying their 1000lb bombs can do some damage, but not these smaller bombs.

3) What led Japan to change their strike composition?? Rather than one mega-strike, they now have the DBs go in first and then have a second strike with the TBs. In this battle, the TBs never found the CVs. If they had all gone in together like Japan had done before, Enterprise 'may' have been sunk.

More to follow as I continue reading.
Michael