Squad Upgrade Issue

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Moose, I think there is an internal game-mechanic issue that you are missing (don't realize about). When you say "all other bases were shut down" (or words to that effect), the only way to do that is to delete them from the scenario. the code looks at all the bases to decide what things they pass checks to provide to what units. there is a 'range' limit, which AFAIK is at least somewhat similar to the supply range (based on terrain, roads, etc.). The only hard limitation that I know of is that when a unit is at a base, only that base can provide supply to the unit.

So even though you had all the units @SF, the other bases may have been involved as Michael indicated.

OK, but if the Upgrade and Replace=NO buttons mean anything the other bases aren't involved. Again, EVERYTHING upgrading here is in SF. Why would it do (up to) two upgrades at SF--one for the Upgrade pass and one for the Replacements pass--check other bases, and then come back to SF?

I had three upgrade/replace. Every other base is off in every respect and has been for seven months.

And I had three upgrade IN ONE DAY from 18 squads. But with 12 eligible to upgrade/replace. No 1-day delays.

You are missing the point. What Michael explained was that, during the replacement phase, a unit at San Francisco could have it squads upgraded by base Alameda (just for example).

Well, that seems crazy, given that SF has over 11 million supply. But it still doesn't explain WHY does it stop at three?

I could see none. It fails some kind of check that isn't visible to a player. I could see two, one on the Upgrade pass and one on the Replacement pass. And I could see 12, since SF has 11 million supply, all are eligible, and there isn't a 1-day delay to reuse squads rotated back on that same turn.

What I don't see is three and then STOP.

[Bullwinkle58]

To see what happens if I run one more day . . .

Starting pool on this run was 21 squads. Must be a rounding issue. But NB, 21 is still less than twice one base force.

This is the Ops Report:

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Jul 09, 42

No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
A-29 Hudson from 42nd BG/390th BS at Boise grounded due to maintenance
No additional repairs possible on DD Express using currently assigned resources at Singapore
No additional repairs possible on DD Vampire using currently assigned resources at Singapore
124th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
125th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at San Francisco
Ship Withdrawals: 12 overdue (192 Daily PP, 11459 Accumulated PP)
Group Withdrawals:
132 overdue (1437 Daily PP, 118847 Accumulated PP)
Device(s) upgraded in 126th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 127th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 128th USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco
Device(s) upgraded in 131st USAAF Base Force supplied from San Francisco

328th FG/326th FS arrives at San Francisco
328th FG/327th FS arrives at San Francisco
328th FG/329th FS arrives at San Francisco
329th FG/330th FS arrives at San Francisco
329th FG/331st FS arrives at San Francisco
329th FG/332nd FS arrives at San Francisco

Two base forces upgrade in Upgrade pass, and four in the Replacement pass. All six of them have actual 1942 squads in the unit. I have now upgraded nine base forces in two days, once with pools at 18, the second day with them at 21.

On the supply issue:

SF has 11.2 million supply.
Alameda has 16,200
Mare Island has 15, 910
Stockton has 41
Sacramento has 82
Ft. Ord has 6691
Eureka has 7
Fresno has 545
SLO has 9132
Tonapah has 0

[witpqs]

There are indeed checks that are invisible to the player. I do not know what they are. I am convinced that one of them involves supply, but I don't recall ever seeing a developer confirm that.

[witpqs]

Hey Michael - one thing I'm curious about. I understand the scenario that you outlined above where several units could get upgraded with the same squads (no delay) during the replacement phase. But I have never seen that happen with large units, like divisions, regiments, 1/3 divisions, or even battalions. Is there some sort of cur off? Or something that makes it extremely unlikely for larger units?

[michaelm75au]

SF is a hub with amply supply as well as being a National base.
SF itself has 2 goes in the replacement phase that could update the devices.
[I probably didn't spell out the fact that a National Base gets to give out replacements first. And then normal replacements happen. Both could cause an upgrade.]

For large units, you still need at least the minimum number in the pool to upgrade one device. These tend to be big numbers so I think it is harder to get that number just sitting in the pool while stockpiling in order to get there - on-one else can draw replacements or upgrades.

[michaelm75au]

To see what happens if I run one more day . . .

Starting pool on this run was 21 squads. Must be a rounding issue. But NB, 21 is still less than twice one base force.

Your starting pool for upgrades is 21 + 3 produced in the turn. Production happens at start of the Supply Phase.
Thus you have enough to upgrade 2 BF (assuming each is 12 devices) in each phase.
1. Device upgrade (2 BF)
2. Replacements
a. As SF is national base, device upgrade (2 BF) during replacements [my error in that I forgot that national bases have a first pass of the replacements]
b. normal device upgrade (2 BF) during replacements

[michaelm75au]

My core question--why did three base forces upgrade and replace at SF and not all 12 set to do so?

In each upgrade phase, you can only upgrade the devices based on the number of devices currently in the pool.
Assume your pool is 18 and each BF has 12 old squads.

Thus you have enough to upgrade 1 BF in each phase.
1. Device upgrade (1 BF) - old devices go back into the pool as new devices
2. Replacements
a. As SF is national base, device upgrade (1 BF) during replacements - old devices go back into the pool as new devices
[my error in that I forgot that national bases have a first pass of the replacements]
b. normal device upgrade (1 BF) during replacements - old devices go back into the pool as new devices

Thus possible 3 BF upgrade to later devices.
Upgrading of the TOE at same time just confused things I think.

In phase 2, if we moved the updated pool refresh to outside the loop, you would only upgrade one BF in phase 2a as the old devices would not be added back until the end of the complete phase 2 loop (i.e. not enough (only 9) new device available for phase 2b)
Although I would actually leave phase 2a out of the loop as national bases should get a benefit IMHO.

Another easier option could be to remove the device upgrade from the replacement phase altogether.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

To see what happens if I run one more day . . .

Starting pool on this run was 21 squads. Must be a rounding issue. But NB, 21 is still less than twice one base force.

Your starting pool for upgrades is 21 + 3 produced in the turn. Production happens at start of the Supply Phase.
Thus you have enough to upgrade 2 BF (assuming each is 12 devices) in each phase.
1. Device upgrade (2 BF)
2. Replacements
a. As SF is national base, device upgrade (2 BF) during replacements [my error in that I forgot that national bases have a first pass of the replacements]
b. normal device upgrade (2 BF) during replacements

OK on the phase-part of production.

The National Base issue is new news as far as I know.

Thanks for the follow-up answers.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

My core question--why did three base forces upgrade and replace at SF and not all 12 set to do so?

In each upgrade phase, you can only upgrade the devices based on the number of devices currently in the pool.
Assume your pool is 18 and each BF has 12 old squads.

Thus you have enough to upgrade 1 BF in each phase.
1. Device upgrade (1 BF) - old devices go back into the pool as new devices
2. Replacements
a. As SF is national base, device upgrade (1 BF) during replacements - old devices go back into the pool as new devices
[my error in that I forgot that national bases have a first pass of the replacements]
b. normal device upgrade (1 BF) during replacements - old devices go back into the pool as new devices

Thus possible 3 BF upgrade to later devices.
Upgrading of the TOE at same time just confused things I think.

In phase 2, if we moved the updated pool refresh to outside the loop, you would only upgrade one BF in phase 2a as the old devices would not be added back until the end of the complete phase 2 loop (i.e. not enough (only 9) new device available for phase 2b)
Although I would actually leave phase 2a out of the loop as national bases should get a benefit IMHO.

Another easier option could be to remove the device upgrade from the replacement phase altogether.

I've been having PM discussions on all this in parallel with the forum, trying to understand what I'm seeing. It's becoming clearer. The dual phases and the National Base mechanism goes a long way to helping.

But if you are considering changing either the 1-day delay rule and/or the replacement phase design I would urge you to be very sensitive to at least two issues:

1. A 1-day delay adds between a month and two months of dead time in the upgrade cycle for the US Army. Each LCU wanting to upgrade has to wait in line. And to upgrade they have to be in garrison in Rest, out of action. This adds a new management variable to an already quite complex evolution.

2. Other militaries, particularly the Indian army and the Australians, might have severe added stress given that these armies are usually in direct contact with the enemy in 1942. Having to queue them up behind the lines with 1-day delays per LCU adds a great deal of risk to doing the upgrades at all.

[michaelm75au]

I don't want to change anything at the moment as it is/has been this way for quite awhile. But it is something to keep in mind for later.

[Oldguard1970]

+1 to "no change".

Our game is really, really hard to play. Creating yet more complexity to the mechanics of upgrading would lead to frustration without adding much value to the simulation. ("Why the heck can't my staff get the new TOE documents out to the Skatey Eighth Infantry Regiment?" What magic tricks and clicks am I supposed to employ?)

If I were in the business of making changes, I would go in the direction of simplification. "All squads automatically upgrade to the latest TOE if in supply and in Rest Mode."