HQ Buildup in 1.08

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton, my friend, your comments are correct (IMO) but you're making things a little too personal (IMO). That's what's so fun about trash talking, you can throw out strong opinions as long as you trash/thrash yourself to boot.

Oshawott, Pelton is merely criticizing your impressive skill at WITE. The best players kick ass (so to speak) on the good. It's a harsh fact of life. Outstanding Soviet players constantly guard against massive isolations. Look how smokindave stopped Pelton's dangerous pincer on Moscow; in fact fairly easily. Your opponents don't.

I'm sorry but I disagree. I know we are all meant to put up with Pelton's rudeness and over the top posts but that one is by far the worst I've seen. Its not trash talk - its insulting and bullying. He's driven other people off the WiTE forum as they are not prepared to put up with his insults.

If that post is allowed to stand then I'm probably off too. Lots of nice people around who its fun to interact with, learn from and disagree with. But if that sets a standard for what is deemed to be acceptable then I'm none too keen to maintain an association.

I agree with you. Should not have to put up with it. And putting people on ignore is not the solution to it.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Northern Star

there is always a little green button to press... I never used offensive language and I expect the same. Now I see no other solution than to press it.

That isn't a solution. The entire board can read it. Using the green button does not stop it.

[Northern Star]

I'll inform Joel and Erik about this. This behavior should not be allowed in this forum.

Edit: PMs sent

[darbycmcd]

Well, I guess I am the no-skill 10 year old who was playing Oshawott so I guess I should respond. Basically, the root problem for me, and I suspect some other players, is that HQBU is very unhistorical, in that it does not in its present incarnation model anything like offensive supply preparation on the east front. What this leads to is very unhistorical capabilities for the attacking side. What Pelton and others advocate is completely correct, the defending player should adapt to the game situation and employ counter-measures, in this case more running. But for me, I don't want to play an Eastern Front themed sandbox game, I like a more historical simulation. I want each side to have realistic capabilities so we can play around with meaningful alternatives. I think at some point in the game evolution, that has been lost to the very vocal group that just wants a good game. It isn't wrong, but I think you can see that there is very little of the historical crowd hanging out here. For example, when there was a discussion about how HQBU was going to be changed, how many times did anyone talk about historical capabilities at all? I don't remember a single time. So we end up with 25 hexes, or 250 miles, no matter the weather or conditions.... is that realistic? We don't know. Is it realistic that divisions should be able to move MORE when they have participated in stockpile operations? well we never talked about what actual units do when they do whatever HGQBU is supposed to be. The only discussion is what makes the game 'balanced' but that generally means how to make sure germany can knock the SU out of the war, and that of course is a problem because the WAR WAS NOT BALANCED.

So for me, it just becomes sort of not worth playing. I think for a guy like Pelton, who has a certain approach, the game is great when he gets to find new and exciting ways of using game mechanics to do what he always does, in this his limited understanding of military operations is not a factor, and he doesn't care (or in fact care to learn). But one of the things I have liked about Matrix games usually is that this type of gamer is in the minority, at least until now.

By the way, if the posting style that Pelton demonstrated is allowed to continue, I will stop frequenting these boards, which will probably result in fewer purchases from me (just a few, but still...). I have seen other game forums and it can get very ugly if that childish behavior is allowed to persist.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: darbymcd


I think for a guy like Pelton, who has a certain approach, the game is great when he gets to find new and exciting ways of using game mechanics to do what he always does, in this his limited understanding of military operations is not a factor, and he doesn't care (or in fact care to learn). But one of the things I have liked about Matrix games usually is that this type of gamer is in the minority, at least until now.

That's why I rarely play PBEM any more. I don't bother reading the rules with a fine tooth comb looking for exploits. Or say, in ACW2, put everything east and move. That isn't the American Civil War, that's a travesty.

[darbycmcd]

Yeah, I agree. And it is really too bad. It is interesting to me to compare the community here with WitP. That game also has some gamey exploits, for sure. But the average gamer there is more interested in avoiding them, in order to have a more... authentic (is that the word I am looking for?) experience. This community sort of got overrun by some particular folk who seem to be able to post quite often, but aren't interested in history much. When it started I thought there would be some interesting discussions with folks like yourself, El Jefe, Flav, and many others. But they seem to have drifted away. And it has hurt the game. Another example, the debate on national morale. The historical reality as demonstrated by unit performance was never considered, just what allowed the germans to attack enough... it just seems sort of a pity. I love, for example, HOI, but that isn't what I want when I play this game.

[Aurelian]

I think Japanese players enjoy the journey they take playing the game.

[morvael]

Oshawott, which HQs and units were doing HQBU each turn? Do you have this data?

edit: by the way, posting this in the AAR subforum was the best way to make sure I miss the discussion (I have email subscription of all subforums except AAR and looking for opponents). Just in case you will have more issues to report - use the technical issues or war room or main forum. Thanks

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: darbymcd
Yeah, I agree. And it is really too bad. It is interesting to me to compare the community here with WitP. That game also has some gamey exploits, for sure. But the average gamer there is more interested in avoiding them, in order to have a more... authentic (is that the word I am looking for?) experience. This community sort of got overrun by some particular folk who seem to be able to post quite often, but aren't interested in history much. When it started I thought there would be some interesting discussions with folks like yourself, El Jefe, Flav, and many others. But they seem to have drifted away. And it has hurt the game. Another example, the debate on national morale. The historical reality as demonstrated by unit performance was never considered, just what allowed the germans to attack enough... it just seems sort of a pity. I love, for example, HOI, but that isn't what I want when I play this game.

I guess I'm more in the "authentic" camp as well, and never tried to abuse some rules in the game. There are many issues in WitE's subsystems, especially the unlimited rail throughput and very generous resource and truck allocations for the Axis side, which in turn make other subsystems look wrong, even those which when considered in isolation look reasonable. There are also issues with lack of incentives for certain historical tactics or strategy, namely VP for doing suboptimal things in the game, without which one can't blame players of retreating deep into Soviet Union and not fighting forward (for example). Some of these issues are not possible to address even in a big patch, but I hope WitE 2.0 will bring many improvements (as we know from WitW there will be limits on the rail system, and replacements will be also part of freight moved, not teleported from an abstract pool to units). WitE 1 is here for the fans of the East Front to enjoy until the better game will be out. I suggest partially adapting to what the rules require (you can't totally ignore the realities of the game), and finding an opponent willing to accept some house rules that you find unacceptable. That's the best way to enjoy the game IMHO, as I don't think playing AI is worth the time spent with the game.

[loki100]

One more comment then I'll shut up.

I'm in the realistic camp but realised a long time ago that east front games tend to attract a small community of players who are (a) convinced the 'wrong' side won and (b) prioritise game play and rule exploitation over any sense (and often knowledge) of realism.

One reason I really like reading Oshawatt's AARs and take his views seriously is he seems to be both damn good at this game and aware of when competent game play slips over the edge into rules abuse.

The general advice is that if you want to play complex chess - where the only things not doable are those actively forbidden - then play with someone like minded is good. Equally if you are prepared to accept some constraints, both in the exploitation of opportunities and mindset, you may be lucky enough to play with someone like minded (an advantage I currently have with SigUp).

The problem with Pelton's post is it is explicitly designed to silence and bully those who do not share his rather individual approach and beliefs. So what will happen, is that more and more of those who take a different view to him will shut up and stop posting. As that happens more the only voices on this forum will be those whom Pelton approves of - to the detriment of the game, and the community who like this sort of game.

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

You misunderstood what I said. Trash talking should be humorous and expose the writer's frailties and balance the criticism(s). I agree, Pelton's blob is unwarranted and, to be frank, abusive.

I called him out and I'm sure he will apologize.

Don't stop posting. Your AAR's are awesome.

Ah. I'm really sorry, I did slightly misunderstand your post. I agree about the fun of trash talk in context. I'll never forget an epic 3 way PBEM of Revolution Under Siege. The game was good fun but I was more interested in the emails - each a perfectly judged combination of insults, propaganda and outright fabrication. But Trotsky is forever now in my mind the man who ran off in his gilded train taking the Red Army's stocks of caviar and Armenian prostitutes with him, while I still maintain to this day that I did sink the Royal Navy at Saratov.

But if that post stays unedited, then I can only see it as a measure of what is tolerable, and as such it makes this forum not a great place to be associated with.

[morvael]

Mods should be more active here. For now we have to endure such posts, but I suggest trying to ignore them, rather than taking offense. There are still some polite people on the forum, obviously not that many since WitE is now a "deprecated" game. But I still like it, and my Red Army has still some miles to Berlin left in my first (and last?) PBEM campaign game.

[M60A3TTS]

When are we getting another update on your game? It has been a while, hasn't it?

[Peltonx]

[quote]ORIGINAL: loki100


The problem with Pelton's post is it is explicitly designed to silence and bully those who do not share his rather individual approach and beliefs. So what will happen, is that more and more of those who take a different view to him will shut up and stop posting. As that happens more the only voices on this forum will be those whom Pelton approves of - to the detriment of the game, and the community who like this sort of game.

[quote]

No, I am simply stating that people need to base things on people that are of equal skill level.

Comparing apples to oranges is what made 1.07 a complete disaster and drove away allot of great players.

Sorry if it seems like bulling.

This is why I play 3 games at once, asking 2by3 to make changes based on one game is simply not helpful in anyway and over the yrs hurt WitE development.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

When are we getting another update on your game? It has been a while, hasn't it?

Sorry for that, I intend to return to the AAR once I stop working on 1.08 But you want these fixes coming, right?

[Northern Star]

I expect an edit of Pelton's post soon and in the future a clear change of manners and language. At the moment green button goes on... until that I will not post anymore in the forum. I always used good manners in the forum and I want the same thing from other people.

[carlkay58]

I am glad that WitW has dropped the HQBU from the game. It has always been abuse friendly and difficult to control. The new logistics system still allows you to do the intended effect of HQBU without the possible abuses.

[morvael]

HQBU is now much more integrated with the supply system than before, and it's possible to remove some of the bonuses it gives, just like early 1.08 did. Less chance for abuses, when less MP given. It's the weekly scale and 50 MPs (combined with thin front, empty rear and instant loss of MP and fighting capability of isolated units) that are causing the biggest encirclements to be possible. HQBU is deemed main culprit, while its actually only a small part of a long chain of controversial rules.

[Erik Rutins]

Hello everyone,

I received a few reports and managed to see the original post before Pelton edited it. It appears he has now removed his comments, which is good.

However, to be clear on the forum rules and standards... personal attack and insults are not allowed and a pattern of these does constitute a bannable offense. Trolling is also not allowed.

Now trash talk does have a long history among gamers and especially among close friends (offline and online) it can have a place when you know it will be taken in jest and will not cause offense. However, it's not something you unleash on someone you do not know well. The original post also crossed the line in that the "trash talk" got pretty personal and I did not see any indication that it was expected or accepted by the person it was aimed at - it was clearly unwelcome.

Pelton, keep the trash talk to your close wargaming buddies who are comfortable with it. The best players are not only skilled but also good sportsmen. On the public forum, you are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else when it comes to avoiding personal insults and treating your fellow wargamers with politeness and courtesy. I'm guessing since you edited your post since I first saw it before I had time to deal with it that you also understand this. This is an official warning and a repeat of this will result in a temporary ban.

Regards,

- Erik

[Peltonx]

Yes Sir

Understood

[Oshawott]

Hello everyone,

I received a few reports and managed to see the original post before Pelton edited it. It appears he has now removed his comments, which is good.

However, to be clear on the forum rules and standards... personal attack and insults are not allowed and a pattern of these does constitute a bannable offense. Trolling is also not allowed.

Now trash talk does have a long history among gamers and especially among close friends (offline and online) it can have a place when you know it will be taken in jest and will not cause offense. However, it's not something you unleash on someone you do not know well. The original post also crossed the line in that the "trash talk" got pretty personal and I did not see any indication that it was expected or accepted by the person it was aimed at - it was clearly unwelcome.

Pelton, keep the trash talk to your close wargaming buddies who are comfortable with it. The best players are not only skilled but also good sportsmen. On the public forum, you are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else when it comes to avoiding personal insults and treating your fellow wargamers with politeness and courtesy. I'm guessing since you edited your post since I first saw it before I had time to deal with it that you also understand this. This is an official warning and a repeat of this will result in a temporary ban.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik, I am actually not satisfied with this. It is way too simple to insult another person like this and then to simply edit the post later without comment. You know very well that this person has a long history of rude comments and insults. Just a week ago he started the exact same rant against wac29 and nothing was done there either.

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It is no fun to have a hobby ruined by this kind of hate and anger. I understand that you are focused on marketing other products. But the same will happen in the WitW forum. It's just a matter of time.

Sorry to say but you have lost me as a customer.