LRCAP behaving strangely

[Lokasenna]

3 fighter groups here at the same base, same settings. No real need for OpSec here as I'm sure my opponent knows what's going on in the theater.



All 3 units are 2 hexes from Cox's Bazar. Range is set to 2. They are set to target Cox's Bazar with LRCAP. So far as I know, I've done this all correctly.

Then the turn hits, and this happens. Note that Akyab is 4 hexes from these units, not 2.

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Morning Air attack on Akyab, at 54,45

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 18 NM, estimated altitude 38,090 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-100-II Tony x 33

Allied aircraft
P-38H Lightning x 17
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 34

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-100-II Tony: 10 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
23rd FG/74th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 42000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 42000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
23rd FG/75th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 42000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 42000.
Raid is overhead
80th FG/459th FS with P-38H Lightning (17 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
17 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 40000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 40000.
Raid is overhead

Now, I shot down a lot of Tonys for no loss, so that's great. I lost a couple of cheap ships at Cox's that were supposed to be under the LRCAP umbrella. Nothing major. However, if LRCAP doesn't perform as expected and I can't trust them to do what I tell them... just ugh. I've never had them go outside of the range setting before.

So.... what gives? Why would they go 4 hexes to a base they weren't targeted to LRCAP?

[Lokasenna]

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Morning Air attack on TF, near Cox's Bazar at 54,43

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y1 Judy x 40
Ki-84r Frank x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Relentless, Bomb hits 1
xAK Tornus, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK Orna, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK Fresno City II
xAK Lulworth Hill, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Umtali, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Rotherham

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
14 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
12 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Orna
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Umtali
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Tornus

Note no LRCAP whatsoever.

[Barb]

Well, your LRCAP reacted to the enemy - Being over Cox's Bazaar they reacted two hexes to Akyab...
I do not know if this could be prevented by setting range to 0 (or they wouldnt be over Cox's Bazaar either).

Anyway I would have used "Leaking CAP" from Chittagong, CAP, range set 2, to protect ships at Cox's Bazaar.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well, your LRCAP reacted to the enemy - Being over Cox's Bazaar they reacted two hexes to Akyab...
I do not know if this could be prevented by setting range to 0 (or they wouldnt be over Cox's Bazaar either).

Anyway I would have used "Leaking CAP" from Chittagong, CAP, range set 2, to protect ships at Cox's Bazaar.

Hrm. Maybe you're onto something with the range 2 from Cox's, which they were set to target. Maybe. That would be completely unintuitive from the interface, though. The range setting has always been from where the planes are based, not the target hex.

In my experience, leaking CAP is not so great from more than 1 hex out.

[urtel]

max rage is answer, not sure is that written somewhere in manual, but i'm test it long time ago and it work as max rage from hex you mark as LRCAP target...
so max rage 0 will force your LRCAP only into target.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: urtel


max rage is answer, not sure is that written somewhere in manual, but i'm test it long time ago and it work as max rage from hex you mark as LRCAP target...
so max rage 0 will force your LRCAP only into target.

If this is correct no player in his right mind would ever think to do it as it is completely counter-intuitive.

Setting range to zero implies to the player that they can't leave the base hex to reach the LRCAP hex.

If you set a bombers max range to less than your intended target it will not fly to the target so it was natural of Lokasenna to assume he needed to set range to 2 hexes to be able to reach the target.

This is not a good thing.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: urtel


max rage is answer, not sure is that written somewhere in manual, but i'm test it long time ago and it work as max rage from hex you mark as LRCAP target...
so max rage 0 will force your LRCAP only into target.

If this is correct no player in his right mind would ever think to do it as it is completely counter-intuitive.

Setting range to zero implies to the player that they can't leave the base hex to reach the LRCAP hex.

If you set a bombers max range to less than your intended target it will not fly to the target so it was natural of Lokasenna to assume he needed to set range to 2 hexes to be able to reach the target.

This is not a good thing.

Well, I guess it's good to know now, but that is just completely bonkers.

[urtel]

i m test it again and it work as i say here is proof, this 2 groups are set to max rage 0 escort lrcap(90/10%) from iwo jima, target chichi-jima and u can see in combat report they fled LRCAP over mine troops (what is worse when u select lrcap misson and selet target field max rage will auto set to rage to that target, unless it's already set to rage biger than that, this is because lrcap is % mission in escort and escort need max rage to be at least rage to target to work) :

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Morning Air attack on 3rd Marine Division, at 111,74 (Chichi-jima)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14
Ki-67-Ib Peggy x 7

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 7 destroyed
Ki-67-Ib Peggy: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
318th FG/19th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 12000.
Raid is overhead
318th FG/73rd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 18000.
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[witpqs]

Maybe I'm missing the point of what you guys are discussing, but it is a known facet of the game that CAP leaks and that many, many times a player's orders are not strictly obeyed. That is intentional AFAIK.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Maybe I'm missing the point of what you guys are discussing, but it is a known facet of the game that CAP leaks and that many, many times a player's orders are not strictly obeyed. That is intentional AFAIK.

And the baboon arrives to administer the rude "s**t happens" slap across the face to wake us all up to reality! [:D]

Points well taken there witpqs.

No guarantees for performance.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Maybe I'm missing the point of what you guys are discussing, but it is a known facet of the game that CAP leaks and that many, many times a player's orders are not strictly obeyed. That is intentional AFAIK.

And the baboon arrives to administer the rude "s**t happens" slap across the face to wake us all up to reality! [:D]

Points well taken there witpqs.

No guarantees for performance.

Well I didn't think I put it that way. Trying to say roughly "AFAIK this is normal, and BTW all through the game 'orders' are more like strong suggestions as part of the original design." [:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Maybe I'm missing the point of what you guys are discussing, but it is a known facet of the game that CAP leaks and that many, many times a player's orders are not strictly obeyed. That is intentional AFAIK.

And the baboon arrives to administer the rude "s**t happens" slap across the face to wake us all up to reality! [:D]

Points well taken there witpqs.

No guarantees for performance.

Well I didn't think I put it that way. Trying to say roughly "AFAIK this is normal, and BTW all through the game 'orders' are more like strong suggestions as part of the original design." [:D]

Right, but with Range 2 I would expect them to leak 2 hexes from the base they are based at, not the base they are targeted to LRCAP. Because every other use of that setting goes from the base the unit is at.

[SqzMyLemon]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So.... what gives? Why would they go 4 hexes to a base they weren't targeted to LRCAP?

This happens to me all the time. I'd love to know the answer if there is one, or at least understand how to set orders to prevent this from happening if that's possible. I noticed this behaviour in my very first PBEM in 2010.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So.... what gives? Why would they go 4 hexes to a base they weren't targeted to LRCAP?

This happens to me all the time. I'd love to know the answer if there is one, or at least understand how to set orders to prevent this from happening if that's possible. I noticed this behaviour in my very first PBEM in 2010.

Well apparently setting LRCAP shifts the center of the range circle to the target of the LRCAP, without telling you that [:'(].

[HansBolter]

So is what we have learned here is that in order to prevent your LRCAP from having a standard CAP radius of three hexes from the targeted LRCAP hex and stay over only the targeted hex is to set the range to zero even though that would intuitively imply to the player that the squadron couldn't even reach the target hex from their base hex?

If this is the case it's just about as convoluted as it is possible for it to be.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

I did a quick test and it did work... 8 Zeros at 100% LRCAP range = 0
This over Tulagi, which was 4 hexes away

6 out of 8 fighters were available


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 21
SBD-3 Dauntless x 27
TBD-1 Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

CAP engaged:
EIII-1 Chutai with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury


I did a quick test and it did work... 8 Zeros at 100% LRCAP range = 0
This over Tulagi, which was 4 hexes away

6 out of 8 fighters were available


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 21
SBD-3 Dauntless x 27
TBD-1 Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

CAP engaged:
EIII-1 Chutai with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead

Conclusive proof of bass akwardness! [X(]

Live and learn.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

And I did the same test with LRCAP 100% over Tulagi, range was setup automatically at 8 hexes once I defined the target.

I got the same 6/8 plane available as result

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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 18
SBD-3 Dauntless x 27
TBD-1 Devastator x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged

CAP engaged:
EIII-1 Chutai with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead

[Jorge_Stanbury]

So it is either that range you set is not relevant for LRCAP once you select a target

or maybe that there was nowhere else to "spill" LRCAP as only Tulagi was in need of LRCAP

[HansBolter]

So what you are saying is that it is impossible to keep LRCAP in the target hex by setting range to 0 because the range will automatically reset to the distance to the target, which means that LRP will always have 3 hex radius from the target hex.

Seems a little strange that LRCAP would a have any radius greater then 0 as you are targeting a specific hex or TF for the purpose of covering THAT hex or TF.

What good is it to assign LRCAP to cover a TF if the CAP is simply going to stray 3 hexes away and leave the TF exposed (hex in this case)?