Re-configure Easy mode?

[willgamer]

These thoughts are drawing upon both the great discussion in the Congratulations! thread, and my experiences as a very average, couldn't hack Wite, restarted many times and haven't won yet (however, this time for sure!) player.

I wonder if the Easy Mode (speaking only to the German side) would be improved by-

keeping the additional trucks and trains (though perhaps with less of a bonus),

keep the extra PPs,

drop striking the PG stockpile restrictions (in another words, playing with the restrictions is better than without and besides it's really not much of a benefit),

remove the ZOC AP penalty for just the first turn.

I think this would keep more beginning players interested and learning so that less games are simply abandoned by turn 20.

[dox44]

i've restarted so many times. i fully understand why there isn't a demo...i would have never needed to buy the game.

[zakblood]

already done easy mode,

tm.asp?m=3976280

called it zakmode tbh[:D][;)]

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: zakblood

already done easy mode,

tm.asp?m=3976280

called it zakmode tbh[:D][;)]

[&:]

That's what I'm talking about- the Easy Mode option toggle effects! [8|]

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: willgamer

These thoughts are drawing upon both the great discussion in the Congratulations! thread, and my experiences as a very average, couldn't hack Wite, restarted many times and haven't won yet (however, this time for sure!) player.

I wonder if the Easy Mode (speaking only to the German side) would be improved by-

keeping the additional trucks and trains (though perhaps with less of a bonus),

keep the extra PPs,

drop striking the PG stockpile restrictions (in another words, playing with the restrictions is better than without and besides it's really not much of a benefit),

remove the ZOC AP penalty for just the first turn.

I think this would keep more beginning players interested and learning so that less games are simply abandoned by turn 20.

Good points, I agree that to keep players longer, you have to allow the Germans to be able to roughly match the first month, otherwise, I think, people will tend to give up - How could things get better for me as the Germans the end of July when I am barely passing Minsk?

If removing the AP penalty cannot be done, I'd go with increasing the AP's given, since that would seem to be the easiest thing to do without changing the model too much.

Another option is reduce the readiness of the Soviets that are in that first defensive belt, since there are numerous sources that state that over 30% of the Soviet tanks on June 15 were in need of capital repairs, 40% more were in need of more minor repairs. Many were with only a few rounds. Many infantry units did not have AT guns or artillery pieces or tractors. Read Glantz's "Stumbling Colossus" for a good indication on how badly the Soviets were prepared to repel an invasion. Low readiness would certainly help get the game started off more realistically.

Regards

[battlevonwar]

The Soviets are too strong and the center is too small in the right hands. In the wrong hands or with a lot of clever play you can get around them. The Rivers/Forts/4 stacked 3 deep Soviet Infantry in the Center make a formidable obstacle. Really when the Soviet Player sets posture to neutral he can just halt the entire Armgy Group Center. Smolensk is unlikely...against the AI or beginner yes... Moscow first is not hard near impossible against an adept Russian.

Remove Soviet Forts until later in the game for The Middle. Limit the amount of units the Soviets can stack in there... and or give the Germans more offensive Punch(a bonus round past Minsk) to push to Smolensk to replicate an Op Typhoon situation... not easy but not impossible


I have played 10 or so games as the Germans... The Soviets can get caught but rarely if they are wise, repeating myself. In a current Multiplayer game the river lines/cities/Marshes/Forts create something similar to the Maginot Line. The Germans don't stand a chance there.(especially cause taking Minsk has reduced the combat effectiveness to nill ... just moving that far requires a rest and refit and then by that point viola) only an adept Panzer Rush/Motorized Rush around the flanks against the AI and entrapping works and that's not going to work against a human

[lancer]

Hi,

The balancing of Easy mode is an ongoing exercise and we are only now getting enough data to make a few judgement calls.

We'll be making changes.

Cheers,
Cameron

[demyansk]

Hi guys,

I forgot, what is the date of the last turn?

[lancer]

Hi demjansk,

Round 57, 28th Jan '42.

Cheers,
Cameron

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

The Soviets are too strong and the center is too small in the right hands. In the wrong hands or with a lot of clever play you can get around them. The Rivers/Forts/4 stacked 3 deep Soviet Infantry in the Center make a formidable obstacle. Really when the Soviet Player sets posture to neutral he can just halt the entire Armgy Group Center. Smolensk is unlikely...against the AI or beginner yes... Moscow first is not hard near impossible against an adept Russian.

Remove Soviet Forts until later in the game for The Middle. Limit the amount of units the Soviets can stack in there... and or give the Germans more offensive Punch(a bonus round past Minsk) to push to Smolensk to replicate an Op Typhoon situation... not easy but not impossible


I have played 10 or so games as the Germans... The Soviets can get caught but rarely if they are wise, repeating myself. In a current Multiplayer game the river lines/cities/Marshes/Forts create something similar to the Maginot Line. The Germans don't stand a chance there.(especially cause taking Minsk has reduced the combat effectiveness to nill ... just moving that far requires a rest and refit and then by that point viola) only an adept Panzer Rush/Motorized Rush around the flanks against the AI and entrapping works and that's not going to work against a human

I fear it is going to take more than an adept Panzer rush. It is virtually impossible, given the AP's you get to start the turns from turn 2-4. I think turn 1-2 are key, and there are a number of cities that you cannot reach, no matter what you do, unless you have incredible luck clearing the way and with some Soviet cooperation of getting the 2nd echelon to move out of the way so you can reach the Dvina on turn 2. Riga? MAYBE turn 2, but likely turn 3 is as good as you can expect. Vilnius is highly unlikely on turn 1, even if empty. Lvov, I came close to taking on turn one, but again, it would take a lot of lucky battles, you just don't have the AP's to get too far. And this is not due to the skill of the Germans, it is due to the lack of movement points. Look at the AP's and count the hexes! Yea. And perhaps the Russians may also get in the way! The 10 AP penalty is killer.

Regards

[battlevonwar]

Mannerheim4,

I have tried again and again to perfect getting those opening cities. It's a matter of dice and where you end forcing the Russians to retreat to. Minsk is a matter of luck as well. Every now and then I will get lucky and get a great opening ... I think that the very best players can get to Smolensk and that's as things are = to getting to Moscow... One guy showed a wholehearted victory but I believe he used the cheat buttons. The AP is not what I think is the problem. The Russians are standing strong way way early. That's understandable and good in a way. As player's get better they will learn methods to foil the AI but their combat effectiveness is what gets me. You would have to rest and refit around Minsk...then make your final push as a beginner you will never push beyond that on Normal(far) I have an AAR I am trying to push to Smolensk and I have seen just 1 person do this and then burn out of Supply and Strength to fight on... Now in Multiplayer(I noticed a sharp decrease in Numbers on the Soviet side) this would change things a lot


Perhaps an AP increase early(against the AI would be nice) but how to balance this?

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Mannerheim4,

I have tried again and again to perfect getting those opening cities. It's a matter of dice and where you end forcing the Russians to retreat to. Minsk is a matter of luck as well. Every now and then I will get lucky and get a great opening ... I think that the very best players can get to Smolensk and that's as things are = to getting to Moscow...

I think getting to Smolensk would be as good as anyone should be able to do before needing rest and refit. I think that the Germans opening weeks were nearly flawless - if you were grading based on that period, you would think a "decisive victory". Of course, the game should not make it impossible, literally (by counting AP points) to even get to certain objectives. Like Daugavpils on turn 2, or Vilnius on turn 1.

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

The AP is not what I think is the problem. The Russians are standing strong way way early.

I presented the AP issue as a possible fix. Another possible fix would be to allow the player to utilize the benefits of the cards on turn 1. Perhaps that would be easier and would only effect turn one - but good enough. The explanation given for not doing so isn't convincing. The Germans should be able to utilize those advantages (and choose to take advantage of his decisions - manuever/flanking, etc) - immediately. Given that the cards do not add too much of a bonus per unit (20 or so AP or 20% modifier in combat), this would give the Germans a better advantage to at least come closer to achieving the historical opening.

I do agree that the Soviets within the first defensive belt are too strong, and I think a 100 readiness rating is too high.

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

That's understandable and good in a way. As player's get better they will learn methods to foil the AI but their combat effectiveness is what gets me. You would have to rest and refit around Minsk...then make your final push as a beginner you will never push beyond that on Normal(far) I have an AAR I am trying to push to Smolensk and I have seen just 1 person do this and then burn out of Supply and Strength to fight on... Now in Multiplayer(I noticed a sharp decrease in Numbers on the Soviet side) this would change things a lot.

Interesting observation. Seems like the AI is indeed too strong in the game.


Perhaps an AP increase early(against the AI would be nice) but how to balance this?
[/quote]

Perhaps from what you have seen, maybe there is no need to "balance" it. Perhaps the Soviets should sweat the first few turns and they shouldn't be forming their first big defensive lines within sight of Minsk. However, due to distance and logistics, the Germans MUST rest and refit near Smolensk at the best, no matter what "advantages" are given on turn 1-3.

Thanks for your comments and discussion.

Regards

[lancer]

Hi,

The rush of early Soviet conscript reinforcement armies, especially in AGC is something we're taking a look at right now.

There's enough ambiguity in the dates of armies forming up and actually deploying to allow for a bit of rejigging in order to provide a more graduated difficulty curve than is probably there at present.

The data from the metrics that we've now accumulated has us thinking that a bit of smoothing might be in order.

Should be in the next update.

Cheers,
Cameron