2.0.11.2 Open Beta Released!!!

[cbelva]

I have not seen 2 tanks killing 10 units but I have noticed that when a unit catches another unit in ambush the kills go up as compared to other times. But as Capn D said, we will take a look at it.
 
I have explained this before, but now seems like a good time to explain this again. Getting the combat model right is very difficult--esp. dealing with a war that was never fought. There are multiple opinions as to how combat should unfold. Small corrections on our part in the code can have disastrous effects on the combat model, so ever correction we make, every bug we squash, has to be examined as to the effect on combat. And we have learned that we won't please everyone. For everyone that believe that the combat model favors NATO and that the Soviets are too squishy, there is someone who believes that the model is too much in favor of the Soviets and that the Soviets are killing too many NATO. This was a war that was never fought and the truth is, no one knows for sure what would have happened and how NATO equipment would have stood up to the Soviets'.
 
We look at all reports, but we will make decisions on how we feel combat would have unfolded. This is something we have debated and continue to debate within the development team.

[Stimpak]

You'll need my Bad Segeberg map installed since it occurred on that map.

EDIT: There's no post-event autosave, sadly, I only have the pre-action save. I have also forgotten other small modifications made: To my memory this was removing LWRs from all tanks save the T-80U/UK since I didn't recall them being in widespread use until the debut of early soft-kill APS in the 90's.
Pregame SAV: http://puu.sh/nJjqZ/210adb38cd.sav

[Rincovsk]

Thanks for your explanation cbelva. I completely understand the complexity. Simulate reality with events that never happened is a huge challenge. At the bottom line you are presenting as well a point of view and a perspective of that what if history. Again, this game is fantastic and is getting even better with the team hard work and care. I have learnt a lot about modern war and its machines with this game as well as how deadly and devastating it can be. Cant imagine how terrible would it be to be involved in actions such as this. Best!

[battlerbritain]

Would it be an idea to setup a test scenario of conditions you'd like to test?

Have various conditions set at the start of the scenario so that you only have to let the game do 1 turn and look at the results.

Come up with a matrix of unit types vs unit types, at different ranges and with targets in different terrains.

Then run scenario a number of times, say 10 times, getting a report after each run and then averaging the results.

Do that for different builds/software models. See what you think.

[CapnDarwin]

Battlerbritain, we already do that now and we have a number of other test cases that we use to check AI and other combat functions. Charles has done a ton of runs using basically the scheme you outline. [8D]

[Lowlaner2012]

Did those tests show that the combat model was OK in the beta?

Thanks

[CapnDarwin]

Yes they did. A quick look last night at the scenario being used appears to be a corner case with the range, flanking, and rate of fire that produces the high kill counts. We will be looking at it more over the next couple days.

[Lowlaner2012]

Thanks for the quick reply and hard work... Im looking forward to hearing the results..

And by scenario you mean stimpacks scenario?

[CapnDarwin]

Yes, his scenario. It has the fight between tank units with good readiness and skill kicking off at 500m. That's auto kill range, flank bonuses kick in as does a close combat rate of fire boost. Creates a turkey shoot and if NATO goes first they get shots off that kill everything in the hex. I would state a realistic result similar to 73 Easting in Gulf War 1.

[Stimpak]

So... the results are intended?

I'm going to need more clarification on what that colored line means, then. Does it mean engagement within a specific time frame, or a single discharge of the platoon's weapons?

[Lowlaner2012]

Good question Stimpack, Id put bets on the engagement within a specific time frame theory, that would mean the combat makes more sense in this case..

[Stimpak]

Indeed. Because 2 tanks should take 5 shots each to kill 10 tanks, 4 tanks should take 2 and a half to kill 10, etc, so I need to know if that "line" means a single shot, or all the combat a unit is capable of in the minute.

I also disagree with the 73 Easting analogy. An assault line of tanks in the forest with ready crews is a whole different ballgame from unprepared, defensive Iraqis in the desert. That's closer to battles in open field around 3km (6 hexes), where NATO realistically dominates.

[markcab]

I noticed the artillery is no longer the Death Star cannon it used to be. I really liked it. Otherwise my game plan was centered around fire support. I also noticed unspotted arty has really dropped in effectiveness.

[cbelva]

Hey Jacob, I took a look at your scenario and honestly, I didn't see a problem with it. The Soviets basically blundered into an ambush situation. They were moving in a very low visibility/very low mobility area. I played the saved game turn three times. The initial volley of the Ami was devastating. However, after the initial volley, the Soviets regrouped, returned fire and laid it on the Ami. In two of the three plays, by the time the smoke cleared, the Soviet won the engagement and eliminated all of the Ami tanks they were engaged with. The other time, it was more of a draw. Both sides were hurting and withdrew from each other.
 
Regarding your question about what the engagement line represents (a single volley or and an engagement period). Capn D would be the man to give the definitive answer to that question, but from all my time with this game (and I have more hours on it than anyone), I would say it was the engagement period and not a single volley.

[Stimpak]

Also noting artillery is fixed.

Perhaps my shock is not about what's realistic, but what I'm used to. A lot of successes and kills being made in 2.0.11 are ones that just don't happen in earlier 2.0.10, so it's quite a shake up to my usual playstyle and concepts of what works, what doesn't.

I'm going to cease using test scenarios from now and and just play actual scenarios. Then I should be able to gain a better idea.

[Lowlaner2012]

Some other observations on new features, it now gives weapon system and hit chance in the battle log, it shows kills at the bottom of the info box..

[CapnDarwin]

Not sure if the diary combat numbers will survive past the beta. They are kind of a double edged sword since they give some insight to things, but they aren't the final numbers or calculations so folks will see a high hit number and miss and be on the forums claiming the game is broken. If you take it as a basic initial number and understand other things still need to happen then it's cool to see.

The kills in the UDP will stay.

[markcab]

I'm used to that. In SP, you're given a to-hit % when you target a unit that's a raw number. When you actually fire, it shows the real probability.

[Lowlaner2012]

Capn Darwin, I think you must have missed it, Stimpack and I were asking wether the engagement lines represented a single volley or multiple volleys in a specific time frame....

Cheers

[fluidwill]

Playing a PBEM of Dawns Early Light as WP and got ghost unit for the first time ever - should have had auto save switched on but didn't and tried to save after turn end which crashed the game, I'll switch on auto save and see if the problem continues. Also purely supposition but I think some of my Hinds might have got hung up on an obstacle, certainly they stopped moving but it might be just they were under fire, I'll see what happens and report back.