Counters or toy soldiers?

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: battlegroundvehicles

Having gamed since the 60s with AH thru SSI thru Matrix I have seen the hobby mutate
(for a better word) from 'classic' counters (which are often called incorrectly NATO
counters, they have an older pedigree)into miniature figures and tiny tanks on maps
in games. This seems to be the prevalent system now except for Grigsby's games (thank
goodness!)due to a younger generation brought up on axis and allies and such. I find
the 'sandbox' use of toy soldiers and tanks insufficient for me to purchase many games
as they don't to me provide a historical perspective but rather a toy perspective. What
are your thoughts?

Representation is representation. No matter what is used the outcome is the same. I don't like these units with 10 as the standard of unit strength (you know the ones) but I've gotten used to them.

Toy soldiers as you call them are eye appealing and bring in more players than the old grog school of counters. I can push a soldier icon just as easily as I can push a counter. Nothing but a graphical difference. I kinda prefer certain graphics now to old grog nato counters.

But, with all that basically it's what we get used to and don't want change. Look how many call for a remake of an old game and don't want the rules changed and only the graphics.

I basically look for gameplay and "challenge". If there is no challenge or a crappy AI then I have no use for that game and believe me today there aren't many games with a challenging ai. While we got the graphics developers to me lost the will or want to program a great ai into the game like back in the 80's and early 90's.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: battlegroundvehicles

Having gamed since the 60s with AH thru SSI thru Matrix I have seen the hobby mutate
(for a better word) from 'classic' counters (which are often called incorrectly NATO
counters, they have an older pedigree)into miniature figures and tiny tanks on maps
in games. This seems to be the prevalent system now except for Grigsby's games (thank
goodness!)due to a younger generation brought up on axis and allies and such. I find
the 'sandbox' use of toy soldiers and tanks insufficient for me to purchase many games
as they don't to me provide a historical perspective but rather a toy perspective. What
are your thoughts?

warspite1

I suppose it depends, but I played (or thought about):

Commander The Great War (CTGW) which has an option of soldiers or NATO. I always played with the NATO counters. I found the soldier figures difficult to read and cluttered the board.

Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa. Similar choice but with the soldier characters on the counter. I still prefer NATO counters - hard to tell exactly why, but I just would not be interested in using the soldier counters.

Wars of Napoleon: No choice but portraits and pictures of soldiers, canon etc. This is okay - but probably because the units are not 'counters' as such. I bought the game despite the unit appearance.

Order of Battle: No NATO counters - not interested.

World In Flames: The perfect mix! Nato counters for the land units and full colour camouflage silhouettes for the ships and aircraft. Perfect [:)]

[Orm]

Did someone say perfect camouflage silhouettes for the ships? [;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did someone say perfect camouflage silhouettes for the ships? [;)]

warspite1

What few people realise is that this picture was taken in the middle of the Baltic sea. The Swedish navy found a way to graft a section of a whole mountain side onto their coastal defence battleships. Clever eh, although didn't do much for the fuel consumption or the ability to fire their main armament. A junior ranking officer also queried why a mountain would be found in the middle of the sea.....the scheme was quietly shelved shortly after....

[wings7]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did someone say perfect camouflage silhouettes for the ships? [;)]

Remarkably camouflaged! [X(]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: wings7

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did someone say perfect camouflage silhouettes for the ships? [;)]

Remarkably camouflaged! [X(]

Here is a link, that Reg on the WITP:AE forum posted, if you want to see what ship it is.

https://laststandonzombieisland.com/201 ... leviathan/

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did someone say perfect camouflage silhouettes for the ships?

No, nobody did. We have been talking about toy soldiers vs. counters.

.

[battleground]

I've been painting miniatures for over 50 years. Have racks of Napoleonics and ACW. Back in the 70s in Long Beach Ca a good fried Dave Warman
had his whole garage laid out with a sand table and units in 1-1 scale (1 tank equals 1 tank) including all the trucks and service vehicles.
Made for some fun nights gaming there with up to 27 people. For that type of gaming (and naval) of course models work best. The current 300
mile tall figs in HOI4 with their small dog like tanks along side just look IMHO stupid on a strategic map. Not enough info and them stabbing
at each other like Olympian Giants makes my mind wander just watching the waste of it all. I have always for board and many computer games
find that for land and air units counters are best or however they can be represented on the board or computer map cleanly.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: battlegroundvehicles
he current 300 mile tall figs in HOI4 with their small dog like tanks along side just look IMHO stupid on a strategic map. Not enough info and them stabbing at each other like Olympian Giants makes my mind wander just watching the waste of it all. I have always for board and many computer games find that for land and air units counters are best or however they can be represented on the board or computer map cleanly.

Yeah, there are smart ways to show units and not. In strategic/operational maps data/factors are best shown on counters or some type of chit layout. But, with the option to toggle to figures if the player wants.

BTW, in the 70s we had a good miniature store in Burbank.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

ORIGINAL: Orm

Did someone say perfect camouflage silhouettes for the ships?

No, nobody did. We have been talking about toy soldiers vs. counters.

.

warspite1

warspite1

I suppose it depends, but I played (or thought about):

Commander The Great War (CTGW) which has an option of soldiers or NATO. I always played with the NATO counters. I found the soldier figures difficult to read and cluttered the board.

Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa. Similar choice but with the soldier characters on the counter. I still prefer NATO counters - hard to tell exactly why, but I just would not be interested in using the soldier counters.

Wars of Napoleon: No choice but portraits and pictures of soldiers, canon etc. This is okay - but probably because the units are not 'counters' as such. I bought the game despite the unit appearance.

Order of Battle: No NATO counters - not interested.

World In Flames: The perfect mix! Nato counters for the land units and full colour camouflage silhouettes for the ships and aircraft. Perfect [:)]

Au contraire.....

[Rosseau]

Good thoughts all around. What hit my hot button most is no use of miniature graphics like tanks or horses when they represent divisions or corps, etc. It just kills immersion for me, personally.

However, good to offer as many options as possible to attract the most people to the hobby.

I am most comfortable with the counter system used by Campaign Series Middle East, with numbers representing strength, etc. And, of course, love Ageod's artistic counters!

[lionel1957]

Players should have the option of counters or 3D in every game!

[DonCzirr]

ORIGINAL: tulsaexec

Players should have the option of counters or 3D in every game!

I agree in most cases.


I wonder if those who maintain a hard line against "toy soldiers" have shunned classics like Steel Panthers?


If so - they have likely missed out on some good war gaming due to that choice ...

I would actually like to see a mod to use NATO counters for WinSPMBT but still will play (as is) now and then due to other

positive qualities of that system.

[wodin]

DonCzirr, I imagine like myself most wont mind the toy soldier view at that particular scale as it makes sense. It's when you see massive tanks or Flak or some such on a map or giant Infantry, that is what I presume most dislike about it. Ruins immersion for myself, however at 1vs1 scale it helps with immersion. Also at squad or 1vs1 scale a generic NATO counter can not be specific enough about what armour it is where as an image of the actual AFV is more informative. SO squad and at a push platoon is fine..over that scale not for me and giant units def not for me.

[Fred98]

ORIGINAL: tulsaexec

Players should have the option of counters or 3D in every game!

Well 3D counters can't stack

[DonCzirr]

ORIGINAL: wodin

DonCzirr, I imagine like myself most wont mind the toy soldier view at that particular scale as it makes sense. It's when you see massive tanks or Flak or some such on a map or giant Infantry, that is what I presume most dislike about it. Ruins immersion for myself, however at 1vs1 scale it helps with immersion. Also at squad or 1vs1 scale a generic NATO counter can not be specific enough about what armour it is where as an image of the actual AFV is more informative. SO squad and at a push platoon is fine..over that scale not for me and giant units def not for me.

I can agree with that view point.

I was just looking at the new Strategic Command screen shots and got a semi-queasy shutter looking at the toy soldiers

they'll be using. Gave me a bit of a "Risk" flashback to the family dinner table as a kid. (I could not persuade the family to play Guns of August or Third Reich)


They have a NATO counter option which is good - but it seems very bare bones and not getting as much "love" as the figures.


I have to give some credit to Time of Fury in that regard - the map and counter options were very nice.


Fingers crossed that Hubert will come out with some updates after release to spruce up the counter presentation (maps already look nice)

[wodin]

I too think just because it's a NATO counter doesn't mean it shouldn't get some love in design. Lots hated them but I loved SSG counters with the units insignia\motif. A Hex and counter 2D wargame does not need to look bad. It could and should look superb. Hex and counter wargame shouldn't be a reason for rubbish graphics. There are some wonderful maps and counters out there. I understand it can be down to money when it comes to a wargame and art is the first to be cut back which is a shame.

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: rosseau

Good thoughts all around. What hit my hot button most is no use of miniature graphics like tanks or horses when they represent divisions or corps, etc. It just kills immersion for me, personally.

However, good to offer as many options as possible to attract the most people to the hobby.

I am most comfortable with the counter system used by Campaign Series Middle East, with numbers representing strength, etc. And, of course, love Ageod's artistic counters!

ORIGINAL: tulsaexec

Players should have the option of counters or 3D in every game!

It is a lot of work though, especially as Campaign Series system uses facings, so there needs to be six facings for each unit. With Campaign Series Legion we are lucky in a manner we've got two excellent artists working with the 3D miniature models, and that with 2D there's a couple of boardgame geeks around.

Here's the stock 3D view, with hand painted unit models for each unit type. There's hundreds of unit types in the game...

[Crossroads]

Here then, a community mod by Maus Man, with in-scale terrain for 250m hexes.

[Crossroads]

For 2D Boardgame view, there's two counter options, one with NATO symbols, and one with Unit Profiles. Here's the former, which I pretty much play solely with.

The interesting thing here is, that since this is a tactical, platoon sized game, there's a variety of units, so there needs to be a variety of NATO symbols as well. 400+ individual symbols, in fact. This includes the color coding for different categories such as Yellow for infantry, Orange for support units such as Engineers, and so forth.